Author Topic: Optimising the Champion?  (Read 2427 times)

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Prime32

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Optimising the Champion?
« on: November 28, 2008, 04:21:15 PM »
http://www.giantitp.com/articles/mYkD5jL8N9SAcClN3pZ.html

Anyone ever done anything with this class? Is it horribly abusable or just "meh"?
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

awaken DM golem

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Re: Optimising the Champion?
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2008, 06:01:26 PM »
hmm ... clicks link, reads, contemplates for 5 minutes ...

The class looks weaker than an Adept, really, except for the Domains. Might catch up to an Eberron Adept late game because of the second domain. The Hero Form / Avatar / (su) what-is-it , isn't properly edited. No big deal; the intent is obvious. The Avatar is an ~Outsider.

The only class I can think of, that gets a better companion-type thingy at 1st level, would be an Erudite with an Elemental Envoy.
OTOH, any class can take Leadership at 6th level, and have something better.

So, an Adept with a Domain, and Leadership getting a Outsider ...
would be better. Ouch.

Figure out a way to "Share Spells" , and getting Polymorph something for the Avatar.
Take Leadership for a Full Caster Buffer.
Role-play ( :))

Soda

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Re: Optimising the Champion?
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2008, 06:07:17 PM »
Actually, the Champion becomes the Avatar.

"the Champion can transform himself from his normal shape into the shape of an avatar of holy might. Taking avatar form is a free action..."

Interesting ability. Not sure how good it could be.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Optimising the Champion?
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2008, 06:18:30 PM »
I ignored the alignment rules, stacked monk boosters, and created Broli.  :)

Really though, the fact the avatar gets a wisdom boost every level is really handy if the spell list was extended.

Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Prime32

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Re: Optimising the Champion?
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2008, 08:53:06 PM »
It's meant to be compared to the barbarian, really - it seems to have greater defences (immune to everything). Plus, you can stay transformed for a long period of time, so you don't really need that Charisma.

Being able to swap out all your feats and ability scores has interesting possibilities. You can circumvent massive penalties on your normal form (such as flaws, strange racial abilities, being turned into a toad, etc) by transforming. Pus, if you start combat in your normal form, the avatar can take the Unreactive flaw - since you already made your initiative check, this amounts to a free feat. The capstone lets you heal all damage as a free action by reverting to your normal form and transforming again.

Maybe if the champion were allowed to choose feats from the list available to generic classes...
« Last Edit: November 28, 2008, 09:01:05 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Straw_Man

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Re: Optimising the Champion?
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2008, 09:14:52 PM »

Spells effecting you would still remain, so ... DMM Persist Cleric anyone?
"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

Cyrocloud

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Re: Optimising the Champion?
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2008, 11:44:47 PM »
Fission might do something, having the power wouldn't be much help since you split the remaining useses of your avatar form, but maybe UPD on your avatar and then fission might be a nice combo since it doesn't seem like you have to worry about negitive levels If one of the avatars die.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Optimising the Champion?
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2008, 05:02:37 PM »
Heh, me versus editing is kinda funny, historically speaking.

"The avatar is almost like a separate character, with its own ability scores, hit points, feats, and skills. At 1st level, the avatar's ability scores are based on those of the champion, although the scores may be rearranged as desired for the avatar. Apply the ability score adjustments for the champion's race after arranging them. The avatar may then increase his ability scores 4 times, as if the avatar had gained a level divisible by four. Every champion class level gained thereafter, the avatar may increase one of his ability scores further; the standard increase to ability scores gained every four levels applies only to the champion's normal form."

How exactly is this supposed to work?


To revise my previous stuff ...
There are two builds, one very below average class, that transforms into another slightly better "class", that can be an outsider.
Fission, yes but what is the fission'd part, the regular Champion or the Avatar?
That Avatar is just a class ability, so the fission would be of the Champion, which could immediately use it's Avatar (su) ability.
2 cc ranks in UPD, and get a +x / +x / +x bonus item
Activate item for as many combats as possible.
 

Prime32

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Re: Optimising the Champion?
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2008, 05:11:40 PM »
Play an awakened horse, fission off an avatar and have it ride you. :D
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Vidar

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Re: Optimising the Champion?
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2008, 10:42:17 AM »
Play an awakened horse, fission off an avatar and have it ride you. :D

^^ brilliant

ChristopherGroves

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Re: Optimising the Champion?
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2008, 11:27:43 AM »
Well, fatigue is nothing to a Warforged ... just make sure your out-of-combat race is something handy like that.

In all honesty, that normal BAB is pointless right?  Either that or Divine Power ... only useful if the avatar is dead.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Optimising the Champion?
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2008, 06:33:02 PM »
Aha !!
Follow the bouncing ball ...

The main class just needs UMD to be able to exploit the spell list and the Domain list. And we're done, with 1 minor detail.
The avatar has a another pile of feats, just sitting there, for a 2nd level psi power Feat Leech, to grab. Now you (or "you") have more feats.
Bloodline 3 / Uncanny Trickster 2 / Legacy Champion 2
that gets your Avatar "level" class ability up to Level 24, and opens up Epic Feats early. Nice.
Feat Leech only works with Psi or MetaPsi feats ... like Improved Psicrystal !!!
mix it all together
and let it "bake" for 45 minutes of far realms time
and you get
Slightly Smaller Big Guy Is With Me, But With Two More Epic Feats

{ ... oh yeah it's messy ... }
You UMD some short list of Domain based Items.
Your Psicrystal mops the floor with the Medusa
Crank up the Wisdom score.
Dipping Erudite 1 for the psicrystal and "spell to power" would help at all levels except the last Epic feat.