Author Topic: The Noble Art of Optimisation  (Read 4707 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Heliomance

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 159
    • Email
The Noble Art of Optimisation
« on: November 26, 2008, 09:00:53 AM »
How does one learn it? I'm slowly starting to get an eye for synergies and such, and how to build towards a certain goal, but I'm not nearly at the point where I can look at a class and instantly assess its power. How do I advance on the road towards True Enlightenment?

Sinfire Titan

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5697
  • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
    • Email
Re: The Noble Art of Optimisation
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2008, 09:10:47 AM »
Read the handbooks, find out which classes are where in the power tiers, learn it the hard way.

The best way is to party up with an optimizer who knows what the hell they are doing. Then you learn through XP.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Heliomance

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 159
    • Email
Re: The Noble Art of Optimisation
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2008, 09:27:48 AM »
The trouble is, of my local group of gamers, none of them are heavy optimisers, and a lot of them think splat is inherently bad.

Sinfire Titan

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5697
  • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
    • Email
Re: The Noble Art of Optimisation
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2008, 09:40:35 AM »
The trouble is, of my local group of gamers, none of them are heavy optimisers, and a lot of them think splat is inherently bad.

In that case, join Play-by-Post. Most of the DMs there are fine with Optimization, as some of them are optimizers themselves.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Midnight_v

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2660
  • Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.
Re: The Noble Art of Optimisation
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2008, 10:54:23 AM »
The trouble is, of my local group of gamers, none of them are heavy optimisers, and a lot of them think splat is inherently bad.

In that case, join Play-by-Post. Most of the DMs there are fine with Optimization, as some of them are optimizers themselves.
+1
Playing with non-optimizers if you're an optimizer (even an begining one) will engender some kind of hate eventually. Most of it irrational.
Yeah. Pbp is the way, that and study...
but the rewards are spiritual bliss.
You can look at a build the way artists apreciate art.
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

Hallack

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1344
Re: The Noble Art of Optimisation
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2008, 11:15:02 AM »
Time, study, and experience are the ways.  And if you are already starting to notice synergies then you are well on your way.  Soon you will be seeing synergies but then picking out the most efficient for your character needs.

A lot of the handbooks are great resources to get you thinking in directions that you may not have considered before.  And Optimization is very much a matter of comparing options so the wider your perspective the more you will see.
Placeholder - T'tosc

woodenbandman

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: The Noble Art of Optimisation
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2008, 12:39:26 PM »
The only way to convert a heathen is to make yourself be better than them. So knock those non-optimizers down by being a better RPer (for the sake of argument pretend there is a right way to RP), and don't let them see your character sheet. Better yet, play things like straight PHB druid and wizard, and when they beg for mercy, then say, "well, let me use the splatbooks." BAM. Instantly allow all splatbooks as an (Ex) ability.

There's no real way to learn optimization. My road to optimizing started when I died. A lot. So I got sick of dying and created a better character.

Soda

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 484
Re: The Noble Art of Optimisation
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2008, 12:43:30 PM »
There are only two types of people. Optimizers and nonoptimizers. If you're an optimizer, one day you will know all there is to know.

Akalsaris

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1143
    • Email
Re: The Noble Art of Optimisation
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2008, 02:15:00 PM »
Learn a new system within D&D.  Magic of Incarnum, Tome of Battle, Psionics, Tome of Magic...pick one and figure the system out, learning the classes and PrC's inside, and make a character or two for it.  You'll broaden your knowledge, and the fresh angle will help you better understand how the overall systems work. 

My own intro to optimizing was the Tome of Battle...one of my PCs wanted to use the book, so I got it and started working on figuring it out so his NPC opponents could use a few maneuvers and stuff.  It ended up sending me to the char op boards to read up on ToB tricks and combos, and from there on to optimizing charging, gish builds, tanks, etc. 


RobbyPants

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 7139
Re: The Noble Art of Optimisation
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2008, 02:31:02 PM »
Being somewhat good at math is important to.  Get good at calculating the average damage of something on the fly.  Compare average damage from one approach to another.  Of course, this is only a small facet of optimization, but it's an important one.  This is how you see why things like Monkey Grip suck compared to Power Attack.

Other than that, I suggest just reading the boards a bit.  Look through the reasons why people suggest what they do.  As already suggested, read through the handbooks.  I think the more you see why others spot the things they do, the better you'll be at spotting them yourself.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Akalsaris

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1143
    • Email
Re: The Noble Art of Optimisation
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2008, 04:24:29 PM »
Another fun thing to do is look for a build that really excites you, and then try to do your own variation on that theme.  The link below, for example, inspired me to make one of my favorite characters in a game I'm playing right now, even though my character's build is wildly different (straight swordsage, for the record).  What both have in common, however, is using small size and related feats/abilities to their advantage.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=633443


Ubernoob

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
  • Happy Panda
    • Email
Re: The Noble Art of Optimisation
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2008, 04:37:55 PM »
There are only two types of people. Optimizers and nonoptimizers. If you're an optimizer, one day you will know all there is to know.
+1.  You don't need to study anything.  Just read what entertains you.  If you're an optimizer you'll start seeing synergy and remembering things.  Most of the handbooks we make are way to broad to be more than a 101 course anyways.  Don't depend on the handbooks.  Just read the rules and think.

Basically, read what you like.  You'll see stuff.
Ubernoob is a happy panda.

GawainBS

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1474
    • Email
Re: The Noble Art of Optimisation
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2008, 05:04:33 PM »
There are only two types of people. Optimizers and nonoptimizers. If you're an optimizer, one day you will know all there is to know.
+1.  You don't need to study anything.  Just read what entertains you.  If you're an optimizer you'll start seeing synergy and remembering things.  Most of the handbooks we make are way to broad to be more than a 101 course anyways.  Don't depend on the handbooks.  Just read the rules and think.

Basically, read what you like.  You'll see stuff.

I've learned most from reading posts and keeping flipping through my books. Not that I study them, but I really like to reread them. Knowing things (even vaguely) by heart helps recognize synergies when they show up. Afterwards, there's Candlekeep.com to check back where exactly that nifty synergy was to be found.

Ubernoob

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
  • Happy Panda
    • Email
Re: The Noble Art of Optimisation
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2008, 05:09:41 PM »
There are only two types of people. Optimizers and nonoptimizers. If you're an optimizer, one day you will know all there is to know.
+1.  You don't need to study anything.  Just read what entertains you.  If you're an optimizer you'll start seeing synergy and remembering things.  Most of the handbooks we make are way to broad to be more than a 101 course anyways.  Don't depend on the handbooks.  Just read the rules and think.

Basically, read what you like.  You'll see stuff.

I've learned most from reading posts and keeping flipping through my books. Not that I study them, but I really like to reread them. Knowing things (even vaguely) by heart helps recognize synergies when they show up. Afterwards, there's Candlekeep.com to check back where exactly that nifty synergy was to be found.
Sounds like we're in agreement.
Ubernoob is a happy panda.

awaken DM golem

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3294
  • PAO'd my Avatar
Re: The Noble Art of Optimisation
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2008, 05:51:20 PM »
Even if the rest of your crew, are Core only types, you can "break" them.
Core Casters are where it's at ... still ... even after 8 years of the CO-board(s).
Bat-man , and/or God , and/or Polymorph , and/or my wolf is better than the Fighter , etc ...

And heck, stay with it and you might find something really new.

When in doubt, ask the others:
What's the difference between Poker, Strip Poker, and World Series of Poker tournaments ??
 ;)

GawainBS

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1474
    • Email
Re: The Noble Art of Optimisation
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2008, 06:01:53 PM »
I forgot to add the +2 to my previous post, sorry.

Archmage Joda

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 505
  • Parenchaaaaaaaaaannn!!!
    • Email
Re: The Noble Art of Optimisation
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2008, 06:22:22 PM »

What's the difference between Poker, Strip Poker, and World Series of Poker tournaments ??
 ;)

Um, you gotta be really careful about who you play that second one with to avoid night terrors?
"My advanced brain is far too meaty to be swayed. Plus, it's practically dripping with genius sauce made from a special recipe of 11 herbs and spices" - Black Mage

Solo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
  • Solo the Sorcelator, at your service
Re: The Noble Art of Optimisation
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2008, 08:46:24 PM »
The trouble is, of my local group of gamers, none of them are heavy optimisers, and a lot of them think splat is inherently bad.

Core is plenty optimizeable if you want to play a caster. Ask around for more details if you want, but I think the words "Polymorph" are sufficient.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

jameswilliamogle

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1279
    • Email
Re: The Noble Art of Optimisation
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2008, 09:25:48 PM »
I learned how to optimize simply by building maximum level characters, initially.  Reading all the rules involved for high-level characters gives a lot of info, and pouring over all the item rules and descriptions gives a great sense of them as a whole.  Having a plan became more important in 3.5 than in previous editions, too, and there was more reward for being focused, mainly because the most prepared / focused characters tended greatly to outshine others.

So, my advice is to put on paper high-level characters, ask for help on the boards when you don't feel that your concept is coming together, and then learn about specific synergies and interactions.  The concept is important too.  When you don't understand something, definitely ask (in the least troll-like manner possible, seriously).

My first truly optimized character: a 1st edition Assasin 15 / Monk 17 dual-classed human god.  Using 1st ed. Oriental Adventures got upwards of 1100 damage per round.  3.5 puts that to shame, though, but it was quite awesome to hit those numbers in 1st edition.


Runestar

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 820
Re: The Noble Art of Optimisation
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2008, 10:17:25 PM »
All splatbooks really do is try to make non-casters a more viable choice compared to spellcasters. To be fair, I don't think there are any hyper-optimized melee builds (you can use whatever splatbooks you want) that can compare with a core wizard. Seriously - "core = balanced" is one of the biggest fallacies in 3e there is. :banghead
A clear conscience is the surest sign of a failing memory.