Author Topic: Optimizing a Brutal Scoundrel  (Read 14918 times)

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sombrastewart

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Optimizing a Brutal Scoundrel
« on: November 24, 2008, 04:10:17 PM »
Well, I thought I'd post this.  This is the best opt community I know of, and I was hoping to get feedback on a 4e Brutal Scoundrel rogue.  This is for a game I've been invited to that could use some more striker power, and I've wanted to play a rogue.

The group already has a paladin, wizard, ranger and warlord as regular players with a sporadic cleric and warlock.  The paladin is always there and the party face, so that leaves me free not to be an artful dodger, but the warlock is apparently the only one to deal with traps, and since he's not around much, I think that falls in my range.  The group is level 6, and I'll post what I have so far.  I'd love to hear feedback, and the items are something I'm extremely flexible on.  Items are done on the scale at one at your level, one above and one below, and the only races available are PHB.

Anyway, my build so far:
Quote

Another thing I'm not sure on is the paragon path to head towards.  This is a, in this build at least, a sneaky rogue and a very combat-capable one.

Any suggestions or thoughts are appreciated in advance.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 04:12:41 PM by sombrastewart »

PhoenixInferno

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Re: Optimizing a Brutal Scoundrel
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2008, 05:59:46 PM »
Several small points
  • There aren't that many of us here that like 4E, actually.
  • Is the Ranger an Archery Ranger or a TWF Ranger?
  • The first two things I like to double up on in a 4E party is Defenders and Leaders.  Once you double up on those, then extra Strikers are useful.
  • Are you going to be throwing daggers for Blinding Barrage?  I'd think about getting a +1 Magic Dagger - Magic Daggers return to you when they're thrown.
  • Can you use Martial Power?

sombrastewart

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Re: Optimizing a Brutal Scoundrel
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2008, 11:03:28 PM »
-Well, I figured I'd take a shot in the dark.  I just take 4e for what it is, and it's what my friends are playing.  Thanks for responding, though.  If all else fails, I'll head back over to the WotC 4e Opt board, but I've found that the group here gives historically better advice than over there.

-The ranger is a TWF ranger.

-Well, this is basically a group with one striker.

-Yeah, I will get a +1 dagger when I have the chance, which I doubt would take very long.  I could also buy a batch of shurikens, but given the rogue's +1 to daggers, I figured I'd keep one in the off-hand and switch to it if need-be.

-Martial Power is allowed, but I haven't gotten knee-deep in it yet, so I'm not sure how good it is.  This is a low Cha rogue, so I'd be avoiding the Rattling powers, I know that much.

PhoenixInferno

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Re: Optimizing a Brutal Scoundrel
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2008, 11:09:52 PM »
Daring Swashbuckler is a paragon path in Martial Power it might be what you're looking for.

So it looks like you'll have 3 guys up front with means plenty of opportunity for Sneak Attack.

My personal favorite Rogue is a Drow with Drow Fighting Style (Dragon 367, I think) - Drow Fighting Style lets you shoot a Hand Crossbow if a light blade is in your other hand.  Ruthless Hunter (FRPG) ups the damage die of the Hand Crossbow (and makes it high crit!).  Just drop Cloud of Darkness on yourself and shoot things.  Two-Fisted Shooter (Martial Power) lets you reload your Hand Crossbow with one hand.  Darkvision is a lot more rare than it used to be :)

sombrastewart

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Re: Optimizing a Brutal Scoundrel
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2008, 02:09:51 AM »
Would that be Rakish Swashbuckler in Martial Power?

As for the Drow, that sounds fun, but, I did mention PHB races only. 

Thank you for your help, PI.

PhoenixInferno

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Re: Optimizing a Brutal Scoundrel
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2008, 04:21:06 AM »
You're welcome!

X-Codes

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Re: Optimizing a Brutal Scoundrel
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2008, 05:26:34 AM »
Brutal Scoundrel Rogues are the purest damage-dealers a Rogue can be, so optimize with that in mind.  Rattling Attacks have nothing to do with Charisma, you just need to be trained in Intimidate to get their effect.  Disheartening Strike might be worthwhile if you go Eladrin and pick up Heavy Blade Opportunity to rattle enemies that draw OA's from you.  Beyond that, I prefer Riposte Strike for Brutal Scoundrels, and then your favorite of Deft Strike or Piercing Strike.  Being attacked isn't a bad thing, the enemy usually takes a -2 on the roll (for being marked) and generally suffers some nasty effects (radiant damage, your riposte attack, or even an immediate interrupt attack).

Anyway, for PHB races just about anyone can be a good Rogue.  The best for Brutal Scoundrel rogues specifically are Humans, Elves, and Eladrin.  If there isn't an Elf in your party yet then pick one for the Perception aura.  For your stats, pick a dumpstat.  Better yet, I'll pick it for you: Int.  Int goes to 8, Constitution goes to 12 for the extra Surge, you lose precisely nothing.  For your feats, Backstabber is good, Skill Focus is bad, Quick Draw and Weapon Proficiency are iffy.  I say drop Skill Focus and Quick Draw for Two-Fisted Shooter and a racial feat (Elf: Sneaky Accuracy, Human: Action Surge) or Brutal Wound (because Heroic Eladrin feats aren't good for Rogues).

When it comes to Paragon Paths, then pretty much all of them are about the same for Rogues.  For raw damage output, I like the Death Dealer.  It's especially good with Humans that like using Action Points.  If you want to stick to PHB stuff, Shadow Assassin is still pretty impressive.  If you're allowed FR material, Ghost of Eventide is exactly what you want for this character.

As for party makeup overall, I disagree with PI's assessment.  Once you get the core 4, I prefer adding strikers all the way.  If you need more healing, get some healing belts.  If you need more Marking, get the Fighter to take more Close attacks.  As long as the Leader is well-protected and another party member has just one healing ability for a backup (even if it's just a basic healing potion) then you should have more than enough healing to get you through any encounter.

For items, I'm not sure I'm a fan of Deathcut armor at all.  Daily powers that deal a little damage are pretty blah.  You were given some loose gold with which to buy more items, right?  Buy plain +1 Hide armor.  The good stuff comes later on.  For your level 5 item, you could do worse than a Flaming Hand Crossbow.  The power will almost always deal more damage than your Deathcut Armor's power, and then there's each failed save.  Whats more, since it's Ongoing Fire damage it won't interfere with ongoing damage from your Rogue powers.

sombrastewart

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Re: Optimizing a Brutal Scoundrel
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2008, 02:15:29 PM »
First of all, to PI, I checked Rakish Swashbuckler and it has some reliance to Charisma, which doesn't jive with what I have so far, but it might still work.

To X-Codes:

First of all, no, there's no Elf, which is why I chose that race, and I believe that the party needs striker power, which is why I picked rogue.  I also appreciate the response on the feat selection.  Backstabber, as I understand, is a given for rogues.  I took Quick Draw for the initiative bonus and the ability to nab things other than weapons quickly, for something like snagging a dagger off the belt or a potion or some such.  I took weapon proficiency because I'd like to have my character use a rapier.  The group is melee heavy and the wizard (along with the cleric and warlock when they're there) handle the ranged stuff, and I'd have better support getting in melee.  But, dropping Skill Focus for Sneaky Accuracy seems like a great choice.

For the stat change, that's a pretty good idea, I hadn't considered it.

On the paragon paths, I believe that FR material is allowed, just not FR races, so Ghost of Eventide looks good.  I'd probably want to sit down and compare it to Shadow Assassin, but I think they're both solid.  Thank you for the suggestions.

Items are where I was least confident.  Basically, our item selection is whatever level we're at (in this case 6), one from a level above and one from any level below.  I was trying to get a level 5, 6 and 7 item, but I'm not great at picking out item synergies.  But, picking up a Flaming Hand Crossbow covers ranged needs.  I'm also not sold on Bloodclaw for a rapier, either, so if you have an idea there, I'm all ears.

Thanks, X-Codes

sombrastewart

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Re: Optimizing a Brutal Scoundrel
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2008, 07:04:32 PM »
I've gotten the suggestion of going with daggers instead of the rapier.  I seem to remember number-crunching that says for a Brutal Scoundrel that rapiers come out ahead.  Am I remembering wrong?  Would it be better to just go Dagger?

PhoenixInferno

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Re: Optimizing a Brutal Scoundrel
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2008, 07:19:19 PM »
Well, Veteran's Armor (Adventurer's Vault) is never a bad pick...

Dan2

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Re: Optimizing a Brutal Scoundrel
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2008, 07:30:43 PM »
I also remember someone calculating out that rapiers had an advantage over daggers for damage output.

X-Codes has the right idea about stats btw.
Int is pretty much a dump stat for everything that isn't arcane-based.

sombrastewart

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Re: Optimizing a Brutal Scoundrel
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2008, 07:50:24 PM »
Well, Veteran's Armor (Adventurer's Vault) is never a bad pick...

True, good call.

Quote
I also remember someone calculating out that rapiers had an advantage over daggers for damage output.

Good to know I'm not crazy.  Using daggers would free up a feat and all, but this is a rogue that's all about the damage output, so I don't think it'd be a good call.

I had someone suggest to me using a fullblade, but I honestly just can't get behind that.  Partially because it seems just thematically wrong, the other part being if I did need to do something like use a dagger for the extra to-hit, I'm burning actions for it.

Quote
X-Codes has the right idea about stats btw.
Int is pretty much a dump stat for everything that isn't arcane-based.

He certainly is.  An 8 Int it is, then.

As always, guys, thanks for the input.

PhoenixInferno

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Re: Optimizing a Brutal Scoundrel
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2008, 08:03:25 PM »
Use some of those saved points from INT for CHA and Rakish Swashbuckler! :)  Death Dealer is a good PP for sheer brutality, though.

sombrastewart

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Re: Optimizing a Brutal Scoundrel
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2008, 11:51:11 PM »
Heh, so either the Charisma for Rakish Swashbuckler or another Healing Surge...

Actually, I have to admit, on a re-read, Rakish Swashbuckler sounds like a lot of fun in terms of RP stuff.  He'd just end up being somewhat fragile without much in the way of Healing Surges, though.

EDIT: Other fun thought here, but what about getting kukri proficiency?  Would the brutal property be enough to offset that it's a smaller damage die?  And, I honestly don't remember, does the Brutal property appy to sneak attack damage?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 01:29:46 AM by sombrastewart »

PhoenixInferno

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Re: Optimizing a Brutal Scoundrel
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2008, 04:16:23 AM »
The average damage of a Kukri is 4, compared to the Rapier's 4.5.  You don't get to use Brutal to reroll Sneak Attack damage - just the X[W]+Y part.  The trouble is that they're both Superior Weapons, so you'll need Weapon Proficiency for either.  Why do you want a Kukri over a Rapier, then?  The Rapier's proficiency bonus is better.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 04:18:35 AM by PhoenixInferno »

X-Codes

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Re: Optimizing a Brutal Scoundrel
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2008, 05:21:57 AM »
Yes, the real draw of the Kukri is the off-hand property.  It's probably now the most damaging off-hand weapon we've got, but that's not of any real use to Rogues.  Stick with the Rapier.

Also, reconsider the double-fisted shooter feat.  It will give you something to do while you close with an enemy (other than closing, that is), and gives your critical hits some real punch.

The thing that bugs me about Rakish Swashbuckler is that the Charisma and Strength scores are somewhat at odds with each other on that PP.  You'll need a decent Strength score to land your melee basic attacks and a decent charisma to hit with Cutting Assault.  If you play your cards right, you can manage a 22 Strength and 16 Charisma, which isn't so bad, but you'll want to ONLY use Cutting Assault with an Avandra's Whisper Dagger... while you have Combat Advantage, a sizable power bonus to your attack roll, and maybe some other bonus like Tactical Presence.  Since the power obviously isn't designed for damage output (daily with 2[W]) you won't lose much at all with the smaller damage die.

PhoenixInferno

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Re: Optimizing a Brutal Scoundrel
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2008, 05:33:29 AM »
Charisma vs Will for Rakish Swashbuckler?  That doesn't seem right - Rogue powers are keyed off of DEX.  I wonder if its an error.

X-Codes

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Re: Optimizing a Brutal Scoundrel
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2008, 05:37:15 AM »
Charisma vs Will for Rakish Swashbuckler?  That doesn't seem right - Rogue powers are keyed off of DEX.  I wonder if its an error.
Meh, the developers probably figure that they get to do whatever the hell they want when it comes to Paragon Paths.

PhoenixInferno

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Re: Optimizing a Brutal Scoundrel
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2008, 05:45:04 AM »
Charisma vs Will for Rakish Swashbuckler?  That doesn't seem right - Rogue powers are keyed off of DEX.  I wonder if its an error.
Meh, the developers probably figure that they get to do whatever the hell they want when it comes to Paragon Paths.
Sorta like Umbriri's STR vs AC attack?

X-Codes

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Re: Optimizing a Brutal Scoundrel
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2008, 06:37:39 AM »
Precisely.