Author Topic: Warmages: Play them the right way or not at all  (Read 115427 times)

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GawainBS

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Re: Warmages: Play them the right way or not at all
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2008, 04:24:57 PM »
 :D

Surreal

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Re: Warmages: Play them the right way or not at all
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2008, 06:21:43 PM »
Just as a thought exercise, if you were to build a Warmage/Anima Mage, which vestiges would you bind or find most useful. Assuming a standard entry of Warmage 4/Binder 1/Anima Mage 10, what would you use to round out the remaining 5 levels?
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carnivore

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Re: Warmages: Play them the right way or not at all
« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2008, 07:06:25 PM »
Just as a thought exercise, if you were to build a Warmage/Anima Mage, which vestiges would you bind or find most useful. Assuming a standard entry of Warmage 4/Binder 1/Anima Mage 10, what would you use to round out the remaining 5 levels?

i would suggest this:

Warmage 4/Binder 1/Anima Mage 10/ ... Sand Shaper 1/ Incantatrix 4

requires on 2 feats(other than Metamagic that you will already have) : Touchstone(city of the dead) and Iron Will(can be gotten from Location(Otyguh Hole(Comp Scound)

but you get a lot of great features:

expanded Spells Known
extra feats
nice class features

 :D

ChristopherGroves

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Re: Warmages: Play them the right way or not at all
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2008, 10:54:15 PM »
Warmages make great anima mages.  Thing is, other classes in actual game play running an anima mage / generalist wizard, say, can get frustrated with the millions of choices and planning.  I love the Anima Mage / Warmage builds for the combination of adaptibility.  I like them with Soulcasters too for that same reason.

TheChrisWaits

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Re: Warmages: Play them the right way or not at all
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2008, 05:49:58 AM »
What are some other options for Warbards if the DM won't let Lyric Thaumaturge work?

ChristopherGroves

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Re: Warmages: Play them the right way or not at all
« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2008, 12:05:37 PM »
If you've got Prestige Bard, then you've got music and an expanded spell list.

If you're in Eberron, daze immunity + born of three thunders is never a poor choice ... you're just losing out on the ability to stack your bardic music on there for extra damage.

You can, however, still use it for actual bardic music.  My Bard PrC suggestion would probably be Virtuoso as you only lose one more casting level, and you don't want to lose to many of them.

I would NOT suggest Sublime Chord simply because you're trading out the one feature you can exploit (cast anything on your list at any time) for a sorcerer-like list. 


If you want to go the non-bard route, there's still the Sandshaper, etc. options.

Surreal

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Re: Warmages: Play them the right way or not at all
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2008, 06:04:26 AM »
I just want to say in here that blasting really doesn't get the respect that it deserves. As CG mentioned about the GenCon Delve, pure damage is simple and efficient, even at mid to higher levels. I've played in a highly optimized gestalt campaign before, and the thing that made us scatter the hardest was a well placed nuke right on top of us (about level 12 at the time).

Field control is about knowing and controlling where your enemy is. Too often people only see this as either restricting your enemy's movement or pushing them around where you want them (let's leave out mind control for the time being, that's a whole 'nuther ball of wax). If you do enough hurt with an AoE though, the targets will scatter. It's all ultimately about survival after all. Oh sure, maybe the spell only did a quarter of your total hp, and the one guy in the party made his reflex save, but the damage was still done. Throw in just a tiny bit more optimization to up the damage and your targets should now be in the position of "oh hey, I'm alive... but I really don't want to try my luck with the next one". Most likely the nuke won't be enough to take any of them out, but you can certainly put at least one of them into the "can't risk another hit" category.

So now the targets need to decide how to deal with the guy slinging nukes at them, so staying in tight formation probably isn't a good idea. No matter what they decide, they know damage is coming their way (and there's likely a melee brute incoming as well who is now much more of a threat now that they're down on hp). That puts them on a clock and forces a change in their game plan. Limit their options, force mistakes. That's control.
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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Warmages: Play them the right way or not at all
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2008, 10:32:47 AM »
Very nicely said, Surreal :)

Also, a properly optimized direct damage-dealer can be damn scary.
Both because you CAN ramp up damage to a level where it actually isn't trivial like a regular old Fireball and because with the right selection of spells and/or feats you can still add on some nice secondary effects :)


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woodenbandman

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Re: Warmages: Play them the right way or not at all
« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2008, 11:56:32 AM »
don't suppose you can get Arcane Spellsurge? 2x spells per round is sexy as hell. Just throw spell + invisible spell of another spell for fun for everyone.

ChristopherGroves

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Re: Warmages: Play them the right way or not at all
« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2008, 04:06:20 PM »
Agree on the damage.  The point in D&D is to reduce some attribute of the enemy to zero before they reduce one of yours.  Sometimes that's a single spell.  Sometimes you attack HP, sometimes abilities, etc. 


Warmages = versatility.  If you focus on something else (like, say, hyping one spell) you're far better off being a sorcerer.  You aren't a laser, you're a swiss army knife.  Adding more attachments is always good.

I do think Warmage Edge loses its usefulness after the early levels - you'd much rather (if you had a choice) pump the heck out of your CHA and let the INT linger.  At low levels, a high-int, low-CHA warmage is plain murder.  Those gray elves throwing the cantrips at near 10 hp damage are sick sick sick. 

Arcane Spellsurge, like Celerity abuse, is exactly what you SHOULD be doing.  It optimizes your options.  Let the sorcerers Arcane Thesis.  They can one-trick pony it.  You need to have lots of tricks.  Any of the dips that don't cost you too many caster levels and nets you spells from any list should consider that one (Recaster, Wyrm Wizard, Lyric Thaumaturge, etc.).
 - Actions:  Celerity, Arcane Spellsurge, etc.  Options are good for everyone.  Since you're not specializing in a "thing", specialize in being very efficient.
 - Universal Damage Applicability:  Sanctified One of Kord, Paragnostic Apostle, etc. ... you have enough spells that are save base, touch base, SR/not that you can find one that should apply to each target ... but making the damage bypass resistance is key.
 - Multi-targeting:  Born of Three Thunders, esp. if you have a daze-immune solution and are also doing Celerity ... this allows you to attack a different attribute than HP ... shotgun approach but now you can attack HP and multiple saves.  And you can do it at any point in time as long as you have a spell slot open. 

Other spells that have huge payback in options: 
 - Alter Self, Polymorph, Shapechange ... grab the ability you need
 - Summon (whatever) ... summon or call the ability you need
 - Anyspell (incidentially, does anyspell count as the ability to prepare spells?)

Basically with those you can respond to any situation appropriately.  No sitting around to re-memorize spells.  The key is to maximize your options.  This is why Malconvoker is a good PrC ... it focuses on the summons.  For any particular job, you can probably get a good or appropriate tool through a summons.  Shadowcasters.  It's why wish and miracle are such awesome spells.  Yeah, you can do neat stuff with them ... but the fact you can mimic any spell with them is pretty darn useful.  Anyspell.

This is what you turn your Warmage into.  Not a Malconvoker ... but someone who, on any given round, has a number of things they can draw from spontaneously to hopefully solve the problem.  I don't like super-specialized casters ... because then you get into the situation where if every tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.





Agita

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Re: Warmages: Play them the right way or not at all
« Reply #50 on: December 26, 2008, 12:21:17 PM »
Quick question: How do Divine Oracle/Rainbow Servant builds typically get a second divination spell on their list? In CArc, I see only one Divination spell on the warmage list, True Strike. Is there anything which is typically used, or am I missing something?
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GawainBS

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Re: Warmages: Play them the right way or not at all
« Reply #51 on: December 26, 2008, 12:22:55 PM »
Quick question: How do Divine Oracle/Rainbow Servant builds typically get a second divination spell on their list? In CArc, I see only one Divination spell on the warmage list, True Strike. Is there anything which is typically used, or am I missing something?

Via the 10th level of Rainbow Servant. I'm quite sure there's at least one other Divination on the Cleric list.  :)

Agita

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Re: Warmages: Play them the right way or not at all
« Reply #52 on: December 26, 2008, 12:24:18 PM »
Quick question: How do Divine Oracle/Rainbow Servant builds typically get a second divination spell on their list? In CArc, I see only one Divination spell on the warmage list, True Strike. Is there anything which is typically used, or am I missing something?

Via the 10th level of Rainbow Servant. I'm quite sure there's at least one other Divination on the Cleric list.  :)
Well, yeah, but the builds I've seen typically take the first level of Divine Oracle at ECL 6, at which point I'm pretty sure you don't have RS 10 yet ;)
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GawainBS

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Re: Warmages: Play them the right way or not at all
« Reply #53 on: December 26, 2008, 12:26:20 PM »
Next best guess: Eclectic Learning?

Agita

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Re: Warmages: Play them the right way or not at all
« Reply #54 on: December 26, 2008, 12:44:48 PM »
Next best guess: Eclectic Learning?
Right, that would work. I'm also ashamed that I didn't find it at first, as I thought it was a feat when in reality it's an ACF. >_>
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Straw_Man

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Re: Warmages: Play them the right way or not at all
« Reply #55 on: January 25, 2009, 07:49:26 AM »

  Not really a Warmage build, but this thread is taking the Warsnake to its TO extension. Entering RS at level 2. Yeah, All cleric spells at level 11.  Not my work but I'm trying to build on it by working in Prestige Bard and Sublime Chord for all Wizard, Bard and Cleric spells in the game.

I'm posting the thread here for perusal: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3343.0
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Endarire

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Re: Warmages: Play them the right way or not at all
« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2009, 05:26:50 PM »
How do you qualify for Divine Oracle as a Warmage when I see true strike as the only divination they know?
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Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Agita

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Re: Warmages: Play them the right way or not at all
« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2009, 05:34:28 PM »
How do you qualify for Divine Oracle as a Warmage when I see true strike as the only divination they know?
See the question I asked only a few posts up.
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woodenbandman

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Re: Warmages: Play them the right way or not at all
« Reply #58 on: March 14, 2009, 12:11:28 PM »
Could be that the Law domain qualifies them.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Warmages: Play them the right way or not at all
« Reply #59 on: April 30, 2009, 12:21:22 AM »
So, even earlier entry to rainbow servant

Warmage 1: Some metamagic feat / Obtain Familiar.  Four ranks of Know(arcana)

Warmage 2 -> level up to 3 -> Necropolitan  back to 2

Pick up the tainted feat "Eldritch corruption"
You now are able to cast a spell heightened by two levels thrice/day.  That is, you can cast a third level spell thrice/day (your familiar is a nice squishy bag of sacrificial constitution points).  This qualifies you for Rainbow Servant

Warmage2/Rainbow Servant 10/ Mage of the Arcane Order 7 / WhateverTheHeckYouWantTakeALevelOfCWSamuraiForAllICare 1

Full spellcasting, all cleric spells (spontaneously cast), all PHB sorc/wizard spells available via spellpool, and quite a bit of flexibility left in the build.  Sand Shaper is an obvious option for the last level.


Or, a more optimal build
Warmage 2/ Ghost savage progression 1/ Rainbow Servant 1/ LA Buyoff 1/ Rainbow servant 3/ Ghost Savage 2/ Rainbow Servant 4/ LA buyoff 2 / Rainbow Servant 6/ Ghost Savage 3/ Rainbow Servant 7 / LA Buyoff 3 et cetra
Landing you with a
Ghost 5 - LA buyoff 5 Warmage 2/Rainbow Servant 10 / Mage of the Arcane order 7/ Something 1.  Costs more XP, but who cares?

EDIT2: ack... can't remember whta the prereqs on obtain familiar are... commoner1/warmage1 with chicken infested works just as well, though.  Or you could just buy some sacrifical chickens.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 06:32:00 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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