Author Topic: Help with a melee combatant, second part  (Read 2949 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

kaiza

  • Monkey bussiness
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Help with a melee combatant, second part
« on: November 21, 2008, 05:10:00 AM »
***UPDATE IN POST 7***

Hello,
I am about to start a new campaign with a new master (whom I have yet to meet personally), and I decided to play a melee combatant. The rest of the party consists in a Factotum and a Binder (and both will never probably prestige out), so I wanted a build around another alternate system, like ToB or Incarnum, and to keep it as simple as possible. The campaign should start at level 7, Forgotten Realms (so no Eberron-flavoured stuff), all books allowed but Psionics.

This is what I came up with, in order of my knowledge of the class:

1) Crusader 20 or Crusader 18 / Fighter 2 or Crusader 18 / Knight 2

A battelfield controller, armed with a guisarme.

Feats:
1. Power attack, Combat Reflexes, Blind-Fight (flaw), Extra granted maneuver (flaw)
3. Mage Slayer
6. Pierce Magical Concealment
9. Stand Still
12. Robilar's Gambit
15. Defensive Sweep
18. Martial Maneuver (Immortal Fortitude)

Maneuvers:
Code: [Select]
ECL/CRS/IL/ML

1  /1  /1 /1- Stone bones, Crusader Strike, Vanguard Strike, Leading the Attack, Douse the Flames
2  /2  /2 /1-
3  /3  /3 /2- Stone Vise
4  /4  /4 /2- (Leading the Attack)->Tactical Strike
5  /5  /5 /3- White Raven Tactics
6  /5  /5 /3  FTR1
7  /5  /6 /3  FTR2
8  /6  /7 /4- (Vanguard Strike)->Defensive Rebuke
9  /7  /8 /4- Entangling Blade
10 /8  /9 /5- (Douse the Flames)->Covering Strike
11 /9  /10/5- Flanking Maneuver
12 /10 /11/6- (Tactical Strike)-> Rallying Strike
13 /11 /12/6- Forged from Chaos
14 /12 /13/7- (stone vise)-> Clarion call
15 /13 /14/7- Crushing Vise
16 /14 /15/8- (Stone bones)-> Divine Surge, Greater
17 /15 /16/8- White Raven Hammer
18 /16 /17/9- (Crusader's Strike)-> Strike of the Righteous
19 /17 /18/9- Mountain tombstone strike
20 /18 /19/9- (x)-> War Master's Charge

Or something like that... I am actually quite confident in this build because I had already started playing one.

2) Warblade / Bloodclaw / Bloodstorm / Master thrower

The idea behind this one is to create a TWFer/thrower, but I do not know Warblade, so here are my questions:

1) Is it a feasible idea, or I'm trying to cram too much into it and I should stick to TWF or throwing?
2) Should I dip Swordsage? If so, why?
3) I know that TWFer are optimal only when they add extra damage to every attack. How can I achieve this?


I have read the ToB build compendium on 339 and the ToB for Dummies over here.

3) Totemist 20 or Totemist 8 / Pouncing Barbarian 2 / Totem rager 10

This is for a spanker/grappler
Now, I have read Sinfire's guide on Incarnum, but I still don't know the mechanics, so my question can appear a bit silly:

1) Ok, so you have Girallon Arms and you get 4 Natural Attacks. Let's say you are a Skarn and you get another one (do NA stack? And if they are of the same type - i.e. 2 claws stack with 4 claws granted by something else?), where do you get the other 3-4 from? And if you are not a Skarn?
2) Same as previous build: am I trying to accomplish too much with this build or I can get an effective "beast" AND grappler?
3) Why is it pouncing so good? I mean, if you do not get charging feats because you are busy taking Multiattack, Bonus Essentia and so on, why is it SO good that everyone mentions it?


Thank you for your feedback, it is appreciated.

k.

« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 07:00:35 PM by kaiza »

fliprushman

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 116
    • Email
Re: Help with a melee combatant
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2008, 05:42:56 AM »
Since this is your first time with this DM, I would suggest that you play something that you are familiar with.  That way, you can figure out his play style and see if it meshes with yours.  Your Crusader build is strong but not over optimized so stick with that.
Blah!

woodenbandman

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: Help with a melee combatant
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2008, 11:22:22 AM »
Starting at low levels the totemists rocks pretty hard, and going up to 20 with it is near godly (You can get grapple modifiers into the 40s as a medium creature, which is DAMN GOOD). If you plan on going all the way to 20, stick with totemist and hold out until you get the soulmeld that lets you pounce with natural weapons. Otherwise, Totem Rager is usually the better choice (although totemist 11 kicks so much ass). If you like the Incarnum, try out a binder for loads of fun, both in RPing and KOing. Build looks like Binder 20 or Binder15/KoSS5, and you take mostly binding focused feats until you decide if you wanna go for insane amount of defense or offensive power, or just weird stuff, and you take feats accordingly. Binder nets pounce at level 12. I'm completely in love with Binders, and I do like Totemists as well, so try out both if you want a good challenge. Binder is cool because it's literally a "Who should I be today?" class. I once thought of gestalting together Factotum, Binder, and Totemist for the most incredibly versatile character ever ever.

Crusader is also really fun. Knight class is 3 levels long, though.

@The warblade idea: Sneak attack, skirmish, and the like are nice to get added damage on your attacks. With Bloodstorm Blade you can do some funky shenanigans like pounce and throw weapons, without provoking AoO, and hit a bunch of people with them, and then multiply your damage on a charge with stuff like Valorous and Leap Attack and such, due to the cool Warblade ability to treat ranged attacks as melee attacks (although you need to do some weird stuff like charging one enemy and then throw the weapons at another target) I like the idea of the build, but I don't know how it'd play out, since there's no easy way to get a high amount of bonus damage without rogue or swift hunter or some such. Dipping swordsage is for getting stances, usually. Some maneuvers are worth it, but with their shitty recharge method, usually bad ones are picked and then transfered to a better recovery method by getting the ones you really want via prestige class and adding the maneuvers onto Crusader or Warblade.

kaiza

  • Monkey bussiness
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Help with a melee combatant
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2008, 07:11:24 PM »
Thanks both of you for the suggestions up to now.

Ok, let's say I give the Crusader a try (even if I have not discarded the Totemist yet). My biggest issue is now feats, race and stats.

VITAL FEATS FOR this build:
  • combat reflexes
  • Stand Still
  • Robilar's Gambit
  • Defensive Sweep
  • Martial Maneuver (Immortal Fortitude)
  • Extra granted maneuver

OTHER FEATS that I would like:
  • Hold the line fits me perfectly...
  • ...and so does Deft Opportunist
  • Blind-fight + mage slayer + Pierce magical concealment
  • combat expertise + improved trip
  • Power attack, anyone?

A pretty long list. If I go human + 2 flaws + 2 levels of Fighter I can get up to 11 and add to the "vital" list other 5 feats, but if not I'm kinda doomed. Any suggestions here?

RACE:
Is there anything that can give me stat bonuses or increase my reach?

STATS:
I was thinking STR and CON at the same level, followed by CHA, DEX, INT and WIS. Actually Wisdom is the only "dump" stat I have. INT must be 13 if I want to trip, and DEX powers AoO (and my abysmal AC, of course).

Thanks

k.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 07:14:45 PM by kaiza »

fliprushman

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 116
    • Email
Re: Help with a melee combatant
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2008, 08:06:31 PM »
Goliath's and HalfGiants are not so bad to pick because of their Stat increases and Damage boosts.  Even dipping into one or two levels of Psychic warrior for the half giant or 1 level of barbarian for the goliath would help because you could get the ability to increase your size to large and increase your reach.  You just lose one level out of all your classes to gain that.

Otherwise, I would stay Human, pick up the trip feats and hold the line.  That way you are a Battlefield control machine.  If you feel the DM may be using a lot of magic and concealment, then Blind-fight and mage slayer lines of feats may be useful.
Blah!

kaiza

  • Monkey bussiness
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Help with a melee combatant
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2008, 11:41:51 AM »
Ok, so I've tweaked my crusader and it now looks as follows:

Changeling Crusader 8 / Swordsage 1 / Warshaper 3 / Crusader +8

BAB 18, SAVES 14/8/8. Feats, assuming 2 flaws: Combat reflexes, (combat expertise), (improved trip), Power Attack, Robilar's Gambit, Stand Still, Hold the Line, Defensive Sweep, Deft Opportunist.

The Swordsage level gives me 6 level 3 maneuvers and 1 stance. What do you suggest me to take with that Swordsage level? I have already planned all Crusader's maneuvers.

Thanks

k.

woodenbandman

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: Help with a melee combatant
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2008, 12:21:35 PM »
If you do dip swordsage you might as well go for broke and get into Master of 9. Take the Unarmed Swordsage variant which gets you improved unarmed strike (Or if it's ruled not to there's a monk variant that gets you that and dodge), then you can take 2 fighter levels for dodge and blind fight and that leaves you with only 2 feats you need outside of your bonus feats to qualify (adaptive style and improved initiative), but you make up with it by getting a bunch of maneuvers that refresh every two rounds.

My build would look a bit like this:

Crusader6/Swordsage1/Fighter2/Evasive whatever Monk1/Crusader+5/Master of Nine +5

You can get 9 maneuvers readied, and 7 maneuvers granted, which means you have unparalleled spamability. Admittedly this is more of a beatstick build than a tank build, but the dual stance for Thicket of Blades/Something else doesn't hurt.

Also, this build isn't nearly as effective at low levels as it is at high levels. So consider that you won't see benefits for quite some time.

kaiza

  • Monkey bussiness
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Help with a melee combatant, second part
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2008, 07:16:10 PM »
So the DM thought the background for the Crusader didn't fit his campaign, so he asked me to came up with something else. He wants to employ me as a character that walks alone, and whose destiny is intertwined with that of the other characters, but we do not work together. Basically I will play solo by mail or chat, and then sometimes we will all play together. He wants a non-lawful, non-evil character. I'm thinking to give the Totemist a try and create a war machine. I have a couple of ideas which I will throw at you for assessment. They are both flavour-based, and I would like an opinion on which works more mechanically.

1) Diabolus (from Dragon Compendium) Totemist / Pouncing Barbarian / Totem Rager

to create a Hellboy-style character, a good one who might hurt. Take Barbed Sting, Multigrab, Improved Multigrab, Multiattack and then I don't know. I would like to go Bear Warrior for grappling mahyem, but Power Attack is kind of a wasted feat with this build... can you PA with Natural Weapons? If you can, is the ratio 1:1?

2) Hellbred Totemist / Pouncing Barbarian / Totem Rager

to create a Van Helsing / Constantine-style character, a not-so-good-one searching for redemption. No grappling-focused build, but focusing on the devil-touched feats, which are kinda flavorful and, even if not overpowered, a nice addition to such character.

Thank you for feedback

k.

Shadowhunter

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Help with a melee combatant, second part
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2008, 07:33:08 PM »
Yes, you can use PA with Natural weapons, but the ratio is 1:1, so on most cases that's just plainly a bad idea.

Whichever option, 1 or 2, are the better I dare not say.
My Incarnaum "skillz" are severly lacking.
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
(A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours)

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

Binder? You're Welcome

Zceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2.
Cagemarrow is a Genius

Before giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice.

fliprushman

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 116
    • Email
Re: Help with a melee combatant, second part
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2008, 04:36:58 AM »
Why not try something like a Binder or Warlock?  Both are very self reliant classes.
Blah!

kaiza

  • Monkey bussiness
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Help with a melee combatant, second part
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2008, 04:59:46 AM »
Because there is already a Binder in the group and I never got to like the Warlock. Don't like ranged damage. Besides, I think the DM does not really want a "one-man-party", but I repeat, I don't know him yet, I don't know how he plays...

k.

fliprushman

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 116
    • Email
Re: Help with a melee combatant, second part
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2008, 08:17:16 PM »
Well it's like the warlock but it's has a breath weapon.  Dragonfire Adept may be a good choice too.
But if you wish to stick with the Pouncing Barbarian, I would suggest that you take Whirling Frenzy and Travel Devotion.  That way you can move as a swift action for 1min, charge in, and get your normal attacks +1 at your highest BAB.  Another feat to look at if you wish to use grappling a little more is Scorpion Grasp from Sandstorm.  It's similar to improved grab.
Don't waste the feat slot on PA.
Blah!

kaiza

  • Monkey bussiness
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Help with a melee combatant, second part
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2008, 04:41:43 AM »
I still haven't figured out whether natural attacks stack or overlap. If I were a Warforged, would the 2 slam attacks stack from the claws granted by Girallon Arms (for a total of 6) or not (just use which hase the higher die). And if I were a Skarn?

I will take a read at a warlock handbook, anyway.

k.

woodenbandman

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: Help with a melee combatant, second part
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2008, 11:32:49 AM »
Natural attacks do stack. The slam attack never claimed to be a fist, anyway. It could be a headbutt or a kick or a pelvic thrust.

So you can easily get 4 claws, 2 slams, 3 bites, 2 tentacles...

Sinfire Titan

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5697
  • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
    • Email
Re: Help with a melee combatant, second part
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2008, 02:04:11 PM »


3) Totemist 20 or Totemist 8 / Pouncing Barbarian 2 / Totem rager 10

This is for a spanker/grappler
Now, I have read Sinfire's guide on Incarnum, but I still don't know the mechanics, so my question can appear a bit silly:

1) Ok, so you have Girallon Arms and you get 4 Natural Attacks. Let's say you are a Skarn and you get another one (do NA stack? And if they are of the same type - i.e. 2 claws stack with 4 claws granted by something else?), where do you get the other 3-4 from? And if you are not a Skarn?
2) Same as previous build: am I trying to accomplish too much with this build or I can get an effective "beast" AND grappler?
3) Why is it pouncing so good? I mean, if you do not get charging feats because you are busy taking Multiattack, Bonus Essentia and so on, why is it SO good that everyone mentions it?


Thank you for your feedback, it is appreciated.

k.



1: You would have 5 attacks as a Skarn Totemist, as soon as you got the Totem Chakra. 5 attacks at 2nd level is unsanely good, more than a Monk with TWFing.

2: Totemists can do really good even when they spread out their focus. But they truly excel when you narrow down what you want to do. A grappler-focused Totemist can get upwards of the high 90's with the right items and feats, before you apply spells. A Ranged Totemist can get 16 attacks that deal 1d6+Essentia+Str without even trying.

3: Pounce is good because you have so many attacks and lack the Charger build focus. The difference between a Totemist Charger build and a normal one is the Totemist is fully capable of dealing with 3 or more enemies without charging, while the Charger build loses a lot of damage if they can't move 10 feet or use Combat Brute.

Truthfully Totemists are not optimal for melee damage. They are long-term combatants that shine when the combat takes 8+ rounds, as they don't lose steam in the least. Incarnates are the ones you want if you want to tank like crazy, as they can get obscene bonuses to attacks and damage, and the right race (Warforged in particular) can make up for the +10 BAB. Or use Robilar's Gambit.


[spoiler][/spoiler]