Author Topic: DMs: Why do you ban specific sources?  (Read 17583 times)

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Zeke

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Re: DMs: Why do you ban specific sources?
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2008, 11:02:21 AM »
If that's what you want to take from it, knock yourself out.

Okay, okay, away from the bravado a moment. What I'm really getting at here is that if I make a call like that, it's final. I feel it's within my fiat as a DM to choose materials that I don't want to deal with. If that bothers you, it's for the best that you find another DM, since I don't think we're gonna work out so well. It's not a challenge as much as a simple indicator that you're not going to get along well with my style. I have no patience for people trying to argue that it's not fair that x or y isn't in a campaign. Been there, analyzed it, decided that it wasn't happening.

The thing to be carefull about here is the foot vote. High handedness can  alienate people and make them not want to play with you. On the other hand they have asked you to be the GM because of your ability to create a game. That ability comes from your vision of the campaign, which will include and preclude certain books. I guess I'm saying that I agree with you in principal, but I would try to hear reasonable arguments and dlisten to my players' concerns.

Akalsaris

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Re: DMs: Why do you ban specific sources?
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2008, 11:03:28 PM »

Probably going overboard, but BoED is NOT, NOT, NOT 3.0. I've seen people say this so many times...

Nor does it give a 3.0 feeling...

I'll amend my previous statement then: it's 3.5 legal, but tied heavily into BoVD (3.0), and most of it is "balanced" against the material in that book, and also against role-playing requirements that are a pain for players to adhere to and for the DM to enforce.  As for it having a 3.0 feeling, that's subjective, but it gives me that impression pretty strongly. 

Besides, as I mentioned earlier, it wasn't appropriate for the campaign.  I have allowed BoED in other, good-aligned campaigns, with mixed results.  The celestial familiar worked out fine, while the sacred vow feats ended up being a PITA all around. 

Vidar

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Re: DMs: Why do you ban specific sources?
« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2008, 09:57:46 AM »
Anyway, my take on the subject:
Someone told me there are two kinds of reasonable DM's: Those that start with core-only, go from there and loosen the thumb screws individually. The other who start with anything allowed and start tightening the thumb screws individualy.
In his opinion people who did otherwise (eg:setting a bunch of specific sources and never deviating from it) just weren't fit to DM.
If this statement were true, I'd find myself among the second type. I name a campaign setting and say: anything allowed, but better double check as I don't appreciate punpun running around. So it's really the obvious individual things that get banned with me. I'm not going to let the punpun-worthy tricks loose in my campaigns. I always check if things are compatibel with the setting, as j0lt says, "no paladins in dark sun", etc. But even then, if specific campaign, area or god related classes or races want to be played, I don't mind reflavouring: Radiant Servants or Ruby Knight Vindicators mayhaps, why not?
And when someone asks to play something which I don't have acces to, I make a minimum effort to find that source, if not I tell them I don't have any way of knowing what it is and they should make sure I can see the source before they play it.

The last is a reason with which other DM's might bother me alot. I think that "I ban it because I don't have the source" is a good reason to ban, but ONLY if you make minimum effort to find that source or actually read it when the player gives it to you. I have know this guy who keeps declining my offer to read almost every resource possible due to frantic lazyness (I'm not saying he should read the lot, I'm saying that if you think you're a worthy DM, you might eventually get to learn more sources except the ones you thought were cool and used on your own character in a previous game), who then goes banning everything because I do not have any proof it exists.

GawainBS

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Re: DMs: Why do you ban specific sources?
« Reply #43 on: November 28, 2008, 09:59:51 AM »

Probably going overboard, but BoED is NOT, NOT, NOT 3.0. I've seen people say this so many times...

Nor does it give a 3.0 feeling...

I'll amend my previous statement then: it's 3.5 legal, but tied heavily into BoVD (3.0), and most of it is "balanced" against the material in that book, and also against role-playing requirements that are a pain for players to adhere to and for the DM to enforce.  As for it having a 3.0 feeling, that's subjective, but it gives me that impression pretty strongly. 

Besides, as I mentioned earlier, it wasn't appropriate for the campaign.  I have allowed BoED in other, good-aligned campaigns, with mixed results.  The celestial familiar worked out fine, while the sacred vow feats ended up being a PITA all around. 

I can more than live with that. :)

Off-topic, Vidar, aren't you supposed to be in class? :p

CountArioch

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Re: DMs: Why do you ban specific sources?
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2008, 02:19:09 PM »
I don't play with Magic of Incarnum because I don't know how the fuck Incarnum works.  I can't comment on balance, because I don't know what it is exactly, I just don't want players running around using mechanics I don't understand because my players tend to not really know the rules anyway.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: DMs: Why do you ban specific sources?
« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2008, 02:33:41 PM »
I find banning to be a stupid move, but more often than not that's because I'm a player, not a DM.

I'm having a hard time not going  :banghead when my DM disallows things such as the SpC or ToB.
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GawainBS

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Re: DMs: Why do you ban specific sources?
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2008, 02:39:42 PM »
The only reason for banning something, is the reason Vidar suggested: not having access to it. If a book is from a different setting, just reflavour it, if a player really wants it.

Orion

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Re: DMs: Why do you ban specific sources?
« Reply #47 on: December 04, 2008, 06:49:41 PM »
The only reason for banning something, is the reason Vidar suggested: not having access to it. If a book is from a different setting, just reflavour it, if a player really wants it.

I have to respectfully disagree. It might be so alien to your game setting that including it would disrupt the whole feel (like putting shaolin monks in a European game... sigh...), or you might ban something because, in your informed opinion, it's either too powerful or too weak. I agree that negotiation is usually a better choice, but sometimes something can be so broken that you'd rather build something new from scratch than. Lots of valid reasons exist.

Kuroimaken

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Re: DMs: Why do you ban specific sources?
« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2008, 06:54:07 PM »
The only reason for banning something, is the reason Vidar suggested: not having access to it. If a book is from a different setting, just reflavour it, if a player really wants it.

I have to respectfully disagree. It might be so alien to your game setting that including it would disrupt the whole feel (like putting shaolin monks in a European game... sigh...), or you might ban something because, in your informed opinion, it's either too powerful or too weak. I agree that negotiation is usually a better choice, but sometimes something can be so broken that you'd rather build something new from scratch than. Lots of valid reasons exist.

There are many reasons, yes. There are just as many excuses.

Most of the time, though, things can be re-flavored just fine.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


GawainBS

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Re: DMs: Why do you ban specific sources?
« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2008, 08:03:43 PM »
The only reason for banning something, is the reason Vidar suggested: not having access to it. If a book is from a different setting, just reflavour it, if a player really wants it.

I have to respectfully disagree. It might be so alien to your game setting that including it would disrupt the whole feel (like putting shaolin monks in a European game... sigh...), or you might ban something because, in your informed opinion, it's either too powerful or too weak. I agree that negotiation is usually a better choice, but sometimes something can be so broken that you'd rather build something new from scratch than. Lots of valid reasons exist.

It goes without saying that things straight from TO aren't allowed either.

veekie

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Re: DMs: Why do you ban specific sources?
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2008, 09:31:08 PM »
The only reason for banning something, is the reason Vidar suggested: not having access to it. If a book is from a different setting, just reflavour it, if a player really wants it.

I have to respectfully disagree. It might be so alien to your game setting that including it would disrupt the whole feel (like putting shaolin monks in a European game... sigh...), or you might ban something because, in your informed opinion, it's either too powerful or too weak. I agree that negotiation is usually a better choice, but sometimes something can be so broken that you'd rather build something new from scratch than. Lots of valid reasons exist.

It goes without saying that things straight from TO aren't allowed either.

Or the diametrically opposed things,those that suck with no mitigation whatsoever.

Reflavoring isn't difficult for a lot of classes, though some extremely niched ones(looking at the ninja, the knight), would take some gymnastics to adapt into some campaigns.
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Vidar

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Re: DMs: Why do you ban specific sources?
« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2008, 09:57:41 PM »
The only reason for banning something, is the reason Vidar suggested: not having access to it. If a book is from a different setting, just reflavour it, if a player really wants it.

I have to respectfully disagree. It might be so alien to your game setting that including it would disrupt the whole feel (like putting shaolin monks in a European game... sigh...), or you might ban something because, in your informed opinion, it's either too powerful or too weak. I agree that negotiation is usually a better choice, but sometimes something can be so broken that you'd rather build something new from scratch than. Lots of valid reasons exist.

It goes without saying that things straight from TO aren't allowed either.

Or the diametrically opposed things,those that suck with no mitigation whatsoever.

Reflavoring isn't difficult for a lot of classes, though some extremely niched ones(looking at the ninja, the knight), would take some gymnastics to adapt into some campaigns.

Kuroimaken

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Re: DMs: Why do you ban specific sources?
« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2008, 10:05:18 PM »
Quote
Reflavoring isn't difficult for a lot of classes, though some extremely niched ones(looking at the ninja, the knight), would take some gymnastics to adapt into some campaigns.

A ninja is nothing more than a rogue with a slightly more mystical bent. Like a spellthief that specializes in killing people.

Flavor is so easy to work around it's not even funny.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Vidar

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Re: DMs: Why do you ban specific sources?
« Reply #53 on: December 04, 2008, 11:14:03 PM »
Quote
Reflavoring isn't difficult for a lot of classes, though some extremely niched ones(looking at the ninja, the knight), would take some gymnastics to adapt into some campaigns.

A ninja is nothing more than a rogue with a slightly more mystical bent. Like a spellthief that specializes in killing people.

Flavor is so easy to work around it's not even funny.

Agreed.  I think it has its advantages and disadvantages.

Orion

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Re: DMs: Why do you ban specific sources?
« Reply #54 on: December 04, 2008, 11:23:06 PM »
I won't speak for anyone else, but I really dislike when players deliberately "work around" flavour, instead of "working with" it. If you're playing a game set in something akin to Eastern Europe, then find things that are interesting in that space/time/milieu. Trying to shoe-horn a Ukranian ninja would bug me.

dman11235

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Re: DMs: Why do you ban specific sources?
« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2008, 01:17:50 AM »
It's a set of mechanics.  Just find a new flavor that works with the setting for the mechanics.
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veekie

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Re: DMs: Why do you ban specific sources?
« Reply #56 on: December 05, 2008, 02:07:49 AM »
@Vidar
Exactly, they take a bit more work, but ultimately fit in fine. Maybe swap around some of the weapon profs of the ninja to fit culture better, etc. Screw around with the knight so it works better with lighter armors in a game where going clank clank is not a viable option(wouldn't want to be a knight in full plate on a pirate ship, that's just asking to be fish food the day you fail your balance check).

Mechanics are just how you can do things, with flavor as why you do them. Mix and match gives interesting results, and should be encouraged. Most DMs I know prefer players to leave messing with the mechanics to the DM, so the player gets to twist the flavor alone. And twist it they will, if they get to play a concept they like with a mechanic they like.

Back on the main topic, besides simple mechanical fail(in either direction), I'd say a DM doesn't have to learn a whole new system to fit into the game. Stuff like ToB and other alternative 'magic' systems being barred for that reason is perfectly understandable, however good their merits.

Maybe if the player and the DM both have the time and the inclination to learn the new system. Something that can't always be arranged.
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[spoiler]
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Orion

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Re: DMs: Why do you ban specific sources?
« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2008, 02:16:50 AM »
It's a set of mechanics.  Just find a new flavor that works with the setting for the mechanics.

Oh yeah, absolutely. I'm happy for someone to throw out all the fluff for, say, a class and say "These numbers allow me to play X kind of character." That's fine! But there are some players who think it's the height of clever to deliberately build a character that's completely incongruous with the setting, or otherwise try to impose their sense of what the world "ought" to be onto the game. It's an ego thing and frankly, it's as annoying as it is boring. 

veekie

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Re: DMs: Why do you ban specific sources?
« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2008, 03:06:34 AM »
Thats a player/DM style conflict, nothing to do with mechanical sources or lack thereof. Some people just like to play counter to type, and not all campaigns support that.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Orion

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Re: DMs: Why do you ban specific sources?
« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2008, 04:30:59 AM »
I think some mechanical builds are so genre/period specific, that I wouldn't fault a DM for saying "no, sorry, not kung fu monks in my Medieval France campaign. That seems valid to me. You can dress up a monk in all kinds of other ways, but you'd have to go an awful long way for it to be even vaguely appropriate for a Western European game. For a really extreme example, if you're playing a no-magic game, then it'd be tough to justify a wizard or a cleric. Sometimes, it's just too much of a stretch.