Non-ToB Samurai build

[RobbyPants]

This is more just for a thought excersize for me, but I wanted to pick your brains.  Everyone knows that the only thing weaker than the CW Samurai is a commoner.  I was thinking one day of how I'd build a non-ToB samurai that didn't totally suck.  Here's what I've come up with so far, and I was looking for suggestions for either different classes/and or ideas for feats.

Books allowed:

• Core 3
• Complete Warrior
• Complete Adventurer
• Complete Arcane
• Complete Divine
• Complete Mage
• PHB II
• Unearthed Arcana

If this character does ever see the light of day, I know the DM who would run it does not allow ToB, so sadly, that's out of the question.


Ideas thus far:
I really liked the idea of the Kensai class both for flavor and mechanics.  I needed a way to get Diplomacy and Concentrate as class skills without sacrificing any BAB.  Oddly enough, 1st level CW Samurai fits the bill.  I could also do paladin, but I'd prefer not for RP reasons.  I also thought one level of Exotic Weapon Master could be good for Uncanny Blow (assuming I'm using a masterwork bastard sword for the katana).  Another nice thing the CW Samurai gives me is free Exotic Weapon Proficiency.


The current build:
Race: human

1 ) Samurai 1 - EWP(Bastard Sword), Weapon Focus(Bastard Sword), Power Attack
2 ) Fighter 1 - Improved Bull Rush
3 ) Fighter 2 - ?, ?
4 ) Fighter 3
5 ) Fighter 4 - Weapon Specialization(Bastard Sword)
6 ) Kensai 1 - Leap Attack
7 ) Exotic Weapon Master 1
8 ) Kensai 2
9 ) Kensai 3 - Melee Weapon Mastery(Slashing)
10 ) Kensai 4
11 ) Kensai 5
12 ) Kensai 6 - Shock Trooper
13 ) Kensai 7
14 ) Kensai 8
15 ) Kensai 9 - ?
16 ) Kensai 10
17 ) ?
18) ? - ?
19) ?
20) ?


So, at this point, I don't know how to finish off the last four levels.  I could take more fighter levels, but I see that as a last resort.  I could take two more levels of Exotic Weapon Master.  Any other ideas?

What feats might be a good idea?  I was leaning toward either Shock Trooper or Combat Brute.  Improved Initiative and Quick Draw are flavorful (think Iaijutsu), but they're kind of low on my priorities.  Would Skill Focus(Concentration) be worth it once I get a ways into Kensai?

The DM is iffy with flaws.  I figure if I can take them, Shaky and Poor Reflexes would do me the least harm.  Poor reflexes would be a bitter pill for the first dozen levels or so until I can use a Concentration check in place of a Ref save.  Then it wouldn't affect me at all.


Thanks in advance. :D


Edit:
Fixed stupid emoticon format
Updated book list to include core 3

I added two more feats to the list above in blue.  Should I try to take Shock Trooper earlier, possibly swapping with Leap Attack or Melee Weapon Mastery?

[RobbyPants]

Also, I might want to include ability scores.  At this point, I guess I'd figure for a 32 point buy.  It will either be that, or something more liberal, so I'll go with a worst-case scenario.

My first impression might be to do something like:

Str: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 10

I'm AFB right now, and I can't remember if there's a reason to have a good Cha score with a Kensai.  I seem to remember everything being based off of Concentration checks, making Con a very important score.

[Prime32]

What about Knight Protector? Or knight for that matter, for the armour mastery. If you aren't wearing armour, you could use the swashbuckler's Insightful Strike. (samurai have to be smart). Then there's Kiai Shout (samurai have to be good-looking have strong personalities)

What about Sacred Vow/Vow of Obedience?

[RobbyPants]

I'll have to look into Knight Protector later when I get a chance. 

As for the PHBII knight, I could look into that.  IIRC, they have to be a pretty high level to get armor mastery, which makes it a pain for dipping.  How far are you suggesting taking knight?

I haven't cracked open my BoED in a long time, so I'll have to reread Vow of Obidence too.

[RobbyPants]

I got a chance to read through everything.

I think Knight Protector is out, if nothing else, due to it's strict feat requirements.  I'd need to take at least three feats that I wasn't planning on, as well as ranks in Ride and Knowldge(nobility).

The Knight class from PHBII could be an interesting way to flesh out the last four levels, as I get armor mastery(medium) at 4th level.  It would work well with mithirl fullplate.  Still, I'm not sure if the class abilities are that good.  Still, it gives good Will saves, full BAB, d12 hit dice, and the ability to move full speed in medium armor.  Any thoughts on this?

Vow of Obidience is decent, but also has the prereq.  I probalby wouldn't do that unless I felt I really had two feats to burn.

The swashbuckler and Kai Shout both seem to make the character more MAD, and I think I'd like to avoid that.

Still, thanks for the suggestions.

[Runestar]

What exactly are you looking for in a samurai build? As in, what sort of role is he expected to fill in? The Samurai theme is fairly open-ended, IMO. You have the defender of the downtrodden, the 2-weapon fighter, the kenshin-esque wanderer...

[ErhnamDJ]

  Looks like he just wants to kill things with the katana in both hands. Barbarian is what I would recommend.

  NOOOOOOO!!!

  You don't have complete champion on your list!

  Bah, I still think barbarian is the way to go for this concept, if for only one level. Grab extra rage. It's really helpful with your uncanny blow ability from your exotic weapon master levels.

  It's a shame you don't have Oriental Adventures on there. Swashbuckler only works with weapons you can finesse, doesn't it? Isn't there a magic item in the dmg that counts as a short sword or bastard sword? Other than Iaijutsu Master, I don't know any way to finesse a katana.

  You could do a swift hunter build if you had complete scoundrel, but that's out too. Maybe a straight up ranger if you decide to dual wield? That would at least get you pounce eventually, I think. Is the ranger pounce spell in that list of books?

  The ronin prestige class is a lot less powerful when you can't take craven. Hmm...

[RobbyPants]

I suppose I should have been more specific about the role.

Generally, I was looking for a two-handed Power Attacker, with somewhat of a Samurai theme.  I saw the Kensai PrC and thought it would be a good fit, and tried to figure out how to tie it all together.  Originally I was thinking about using a greatsword, but then I thought of Exotic Weapon Master, and realized that with a Str of 16+, I come out ahead on average damage.

Complete Champion and Complete Scoundrel were both on my list of books to buy right when 4E was announced in August.  At this point, I'd held off on buying them until I had a better idea how I felt about 4E.  I'm getting to the point where I'm thinking about buying them.

Barbarian could work, in that you don't lose rage or pounce if you become lawful later (required for Kensai).

[unundindur]

I see you are not using Champions of Valor or Oriental adventures, but none the less I will post a modified version of my Kensai build (the regular using Warblade), if only for inspiration. I assume that swashbuckler would have Iaijutsu focus as a class skill (in an oriental setting I am certain they would).

This build primarily utilise Intelligence and Dexterity.

1 Samurai-------Weapon focus (Katana)
2 Samurai-------Improved initiative
3 Monk----------Carmendine monk
4 Monk
5 Swashbuckler
6 Swashbuckler---Quick draw
7 Swashbuckler
8 Iaijutsu master
9 Fighter--Power attack, Two weapon fighting
10 Fighter--Improved two weapon fighting
11 Fighter
12 Fighter--Exotic weapon proficiency (Katana), Weapon specialisation
13 Samurai
14 Samurai--Weapon mastery
15 Samurai--Greater weapon focus
16 Samurai--Greater two weapon fighting
17 Samurai
18 Samurai--Oversized two weapon fighting, Improved critical (Katana)
19 Exotic weapon master (Uncanny blow)
20 Exotic weapon master (Stunning blow)

Now grab a belt of battle and two +5 Adamantine Greater wounding katanas and hack your way somewhere

The reason for using feat to use two katanas instead of a wakizashi is due to feat synergy. To many feats are weapon spesific. When I look at it now I see this one is a hell weaker than the ToB compatible version, but whatever, its already written

[ErhnamDJ]

  Why take swashbuckler? You can't use insightful strike with a katana.

[Nox_Noctis]

I believe the Feycraft template from DMG II might let you finesse a Katana, but I don't see that on the list of books allowed, so it would seem that is out. Although, to be fair, the Core 3 aren't on the books allowed, but I think we all assume they are allowed anyway.

[ErhnamDJ]

I believe the Feycraft template from DMG II might let you finesse a Katana, but I don't see that on the list of books allowed, so it would seem that is out. Although, to be fair, the Core 3 aren't on the books allowed, but I think we all assume they are allowed anyway.

We can assume the Player's Handbook is allowed, though, because it is used in his build in the first post. The DMG and Monster Manual, on the other hand, we have no idea.

[RobbyPants]

I see you are not using Champions of Valor or Oriental adventures, but none the less I will post a modified version of my Kensai build (the regular using Warblade), if only for inspiration. I assume that swashbuckler would have Iaijutsu focus as a class skill (in an oriental setting I am certain they would).

<snip>

When you say "samurai" in the build, are you refering to the OA version?

I believe the Feycraft template from DMG II might let you finesse a Katana, but I don't see that on the list of books allowed, so it would seem that is out. Although, to be fair, the Core 3 aren't on the books allowed, but I think we all assume they are allowed anyway.

Yeah, I figured it was implied, but I'll put the core three books in the OP.

[RobbyPants]

To further specify, I am open to suggestions to a different class progression.  Mainly what I'm looking for is suggestions for class levels 17 - 20 and feats in the open slots.  Again, it's still somewhat flexible, if there's a better way to do it.

I'm looking to take advantage of Power Attack and a high Str mod for damage.  I already have Leap Attack in there.  I was somewhat planning on Combat Brute and/or Shock Tooper.  I know I can get one in easiy (only two more feats), and I was wondering if I should take both.  Also, are there any other good feats you can think of to either help with charge damage and full attacks?  Are there any feats you can think of to give me an edge in some other facet I haven't yet thought of?

Sorry I wasn't more explicit earlier.

[Cyrocloud]

I'm not so sure how strict your dm is on what you have to be to be called a samurai, but this build may due.

Barbarian 2/Fighter 4/Frenzied beserker 4/ EWP 2/FB+6/Ronin 2

H)Cleave
F)Destructive Rage
F)Intimidating rage
1)Power Attack
3)Ex Weap Pro (Bastard Sword)
F)Weap Focus (BS)
F)Endurance
6)Weap Spec (BS)
9)Steadfast Determination
12)Imp Bull rush
15)Shock Trooper
18)Leap attack

I know it wasn't exactly what you intended, but I'd see him as a man who tried to serve his lord, but was never able to over come the inner hate and destruction which was eating away at his soul, and he slowly was consumed by it and found immesurable strength from doing so and keeps on useing the type of sword in which his former master bestowed upon him.  And eventualy he would consumed with his innerrage leave his lord and become a famous ronin, for the use of his devasting one strike tactics on opponents. 

the samurai in CW does disgrase to Musashi Miyamoto.

[Shadeseraph]

How many people does read what the OP wanted? 

Well, about what you're doing:

If you are going to 2WF with both katana and wakizashi, and you have to take Weapon specialization, get Tempest (Complete Adventurer) in that progression. If you use Headless Charge a lot, AC won't be a thing you'll be caring about.

Power Attack and Leap attack are mandatory. After that, Shock Trooper (CW) is a winner. Combat Brute is a nice addition.

In general, I can't say too much more. Your idea was the correct from the start.

[Apupunchau]

If you are going to 2WF with both katana and wakizashi, and you have to take Weapon specialization, get Tempest (Complete Adventurer) in that progression. If you use Headless Charge a lot, AC won't be a thing you'll be caring about.

Not to derail the OP's thread but every time I've brought up Tempest in a TWF build on the WotC CO boards it gets shot down quick. What is it about Tempest that is good for this build if he was going TWF or can waht tempest does be done in a better way even in this instance?

[ErhnamDJ]

  Well, Tempest does nothing but give +2 attack while two weapon fighting. As we all know, twf requires extra damage. Lots of it. And pounce. I don't see a way to get pounce or sufficient extra damage. Holding a katana in two hands can be quite deadly, though, with the uncanny blow ability of the Exotic Weapon Master.

[Shadeseraph]

The tempest  allow you to use your katana feats for your wakizashi. It's a really bad class (too many requisites, too many limitation) but... bah, forget it.

Anway, I don't remember the prerequisites, but Ronin gives you the Banzai charge, which is the equivalent to Headless Charge.

Bah, forget it. fighter would give you the same without prerequisites or alignment changes. I can't think about any class that would sinergize well with a heavily armored 2WF...

[unundindur]

The tempest  allow you to use your katana feats for your wakizashi. It's a really bad class (too many requisites, too many limitation) but... bah, forget it.

Anway, I don't remember the prerequisites, but Ronin gives you the Banzai charge, which is the equivalent to Headless Charge.

Bah, forget it. fighter would give you the same without prerequisites or alignment changes. I can't think about any class that would sinergize well with a heavily armored 2WF...

Maybe Champion of corellon? Anyway, i don't think heavy armour is a req to be a Samurai. My mind at least envision a kimono-guy