Author Topic: Balancing LA, racial hit-die and tiered classes for new game  (Read 2337 times)

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ChristopherGroves

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Balancing LA, racial hit-die and tiered classes for new game
« on: November 18, 2008, 10:15:28 AM »
In my local group, I like to run mini-campaigns or vignette's.  Let someone else do the big, overarching plot line (and me play) ... I'll do the intellectual, short-duration, one-off campaigns.


I'm setting up another one to run in a few months.  It'll be (basically) 3 marathon sessions and static level-bumps (D&D 3.5)

Session 1 - Power Level 1
Session 2 - Power Level 2
Session 3 - Power Level 3

Likely I'll make those bumps just one or two levels at most to keep consistency.  What this means is that if Session 1 is ECL 7, at Session 2 you'll bump to ECL 9 ... and at session 3 you'll bump to ECL 11.


Generally I've just winged any house rules in the past ... the other players have not historically been as optimization, etc. focused.  Now though, they've caught the bug.  Either way, fine with me - I just want it to be fun.  In general, really dirty tricks and NI events are out.  The plot concept for this one will be somewhat "You play the monsters".  I want to give folks an option to play funky things.

I've read the tiering threads and AfterCrescents thoughts and here's where I've ended up ... an amalgamation of each.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Preface
This is meant to cover characters developed and started at advanced points, not to handle some sort of Savage-Progressions style advancement.  If it seems I'm ignoring how a person could play a Nymph starting at level 1 ... it is because I am.

Basic Process
At each level, determine the tier to which the character's current class belongs.  For each step away from Tier 1, the character receive some sort of adjustment.  This adjustment applies at each individual level.  Adjustments must be made level-by-level; you can not combine the adjustment from two separate levels into one larger adjustment.  Unless specified, each adjustment can only be taken once per level.


   1   Bonus Hit Point
---------------------------------------------------------
        The character gains a bonus hit point for this level.
        This bonus may be chosen multiple times at a single level.


   1   Bonus Skill Point
---------------------------------------------------------
        The character gains an additional skill point this level.
        Skill points are still limited by class maximums and class skills for the current level.
        This bonus may be chosen multiple times at a single level.


   3   Save Bonus
---------------------------------------------------------
        The character receives a +1 Tier Bonus (named bonus) to one save of their choice.
        This bonus stacks with other bonuses including other Tier Bonuses.


   3   Commoner Gestalt
---------------------------------------------------------
        The player may gestalt commoner with this level taking the best BAB, saves, skills and hit points.


   4   Expert, Aristocrat or Warrior gestalt
---------------------------------------------------------
        The player may gestalt Expert, Aristocrat or Warrior at this level taking the best BAB, saves, skills and hit points. 


   5   Bonus Feat???
---------------------------------------------------------
        The player may take a bonus feat for which the character qualifies at this level.



Level Adjustment & Racial Hit Dice
Similar to class levels, level adjustment (by type) and racial hit dice should be assigned to a tier. 

My initial thoughts are to place most LA in Tier 4 (allowing for 3 points of adjustment per level which translates into a commoner gestalt and thus at least hit dice during that level).  If a gestalt applies as an adjustment to level adjustment the following additional restrictions apply:
 - The gestalt hit dice are NOT changed to racial hit dice under any circumstances (ie, commoner is not turned into a d12 undead level)
 - These gestalt hit dice do not change the caster level, etc. for any other capability of the base creature
 - These hit dice MAY change BAB, saves, skill points

I'm still torn on whether or not to differentiate LA by type.

Racial hit dice should be tiered as well.  Initial thoughts are to place them as follows:

Tier 2
 - Outsider & Dragon

Tier 3
 - Monstrous Humanoid, Magical Beast, Animal

Tier 4
 - All Others
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 11:15:28 AM by ChristopherGroves »

woodenbandman

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Re: Working on a new mini-campaign
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2008, 10:57:46 AM »
Quote
So, what I'm trying to do is find a way for someone to be able to, for instance, play something with wicked LA and racial hit dice (like a Djinni, Succubus or Mind Flayer) and not get destroyed.  I think the key to this is some sort of gestalt but I'm stuck on the details.  I want to make it possible for someone to play the strange thing and not be completely outclassed by the guy that decides to play a human or kobold and has a maximized gestalt.  I'm thinking along the lines of having them shove the racial hit die and LA (if any on one side ... and then after that only being able to single-class it (with a base class at that) on that side, then a full normal progression on the other.  I'm not sure if that flings balance too far to one side or the other.

That's the gestalt rules, people have houseruled that in the past. Another choice would be to toss things like paladins and fighters and WuJen, rather than wizards and  beholders.

If you do the dual progression, it will bump the power level significantly, but far weaker than if they'd had class levels (can you compare a Druid//Cleric to a Djinni//Cleric? The Druid kicks its ass).

MilwaukeeJoe

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Re: Working on a new mini-campaign
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2008, 10:59:25 AM »
Are you going to pre-generate the characters yourself, or let the players generate the characters?

If the former, you'd have much more control over the power levels of the characters. Although the latter may provide more interest for your players, and is much less work.

ChristopherGroves

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Re: Working on a new mini-campaign
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2008, 11:13:55 AM »
I appreciate the feed back; maybe I wasn't clear.  I'm familiar with the gestalt rules.  What I'm trying to do is use them in some way to put the druid/cleric on par with the djinni/whatever.  This means ... not standard gestalt.  I'm looking for ways to CHANGE gestalt to get the balance. 


Like ...

Side A - normal progression
Side B - LA and racial hit die, single base class ... possibly restrict this to non-casting classes?  Maybe restrict to bases classes that don't get 9th level spells / abilities? 


Players will build them.  This is their chance to play something wacky.





AfterCrescent

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Re: Working on a new mini-campaign
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2008, 02:45:09 PM »
Wait, so you want the gestalt druid//cleric to be balanced against the gestalt djinni//whatever? Or the normal Druid or Cleric vs the gestalt djinni/whatever?
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ChristopherGroves

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Re: Working on a new mini-campaign
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2008, 03:22:39 PM »
Basically the high level objective I have is this ...

(1) Allow a player to play something wacky, like a Djinni, without being totally crippled by the huge LA

(2) Allow a player to play a human, but a Cleric / Druid would be a huge monster that would overclass the Djinnininini

I don't want to come out and say "hey, you have to play something odd", but I want to provide incentives.  If I left it "play what you want" then I'll have a game that everyone is playing the monster but they are all kobolds, shadow gnomes, etc.

My thought was to maybe use the tiering system ... and allow monsters who have SLAs that mimic a class to be treated as that class.  They could gestalt within limits.  I don't want them to have it for free because I want the flexibility to have a mind-flayer in the same party as the djinni and the mongrelfolk and somehow obtain a balance.

AfterCrescent

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Re: Working on a new mini-campaign
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2008, 03:32:58 PM »
I might suggest a brief readthrough of my LA rework system. http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1917.0

It's basically a "monsters are simply race/class combinations like anything else" so a Nymph is truly a "Nymph/druid" and some abilities that are not available to normal PCs are turned into feats the race is required to take.
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Need to play table top? Get your game on at:
Brilliant Gameologists' PbP Forum. Do it, you know you want to.
The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
The 13th Guard - An alternate history campaign idea.
Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie

ChristopherGroves

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Re: Working on a new mini-campaign
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2008, 03:57:06 PM »
Ok yeah, similar idea.

Let me describe some use-cases ... and for this I'm not assuming 6 tiers

(1) If someone wants to play a druid or druid enhancing class, that's all I want to let them have at those levels ... it's a top-tier class ... so same would hold with wizard, etc.
(2) If someone wants to play one step down they could gestalt with an NPC class
(3) If they want to play several steps down, they could gestalt with something in that same general vicinity

LA would be either in bucket (2) or (3).  Monster hit dice would also be in either (2) or (3) depending on if it granted something spiffy (like cleric casting, for instance) ... in which case it'd be in the top region


Something like that.

Dunno.  Still chewing on it.

ChristopherGroves

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Re: Working on a new mini-campaign
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2008, 07:56:44 PM »
Maybe it is as simple as this ... (and remember this only applies to players and really, only applies to in-flight folks ... I'm not rebuilding savage progressions

For classes and hit-dice
(1) Start with the tier system
(2) Each step away from the top tier as "an advantage" ... so a tier 2 character would get "one advantage" ... a tier three character would get "two advantages" in order to try to balance with the upper tiers

One advantage (say for a tier 2 character) would be something like ...
+1 hit point
+1 skill point (still limited by hit-die max ranks and cross-class buying)

Two advantages (a tier 3 character level) would be ...
+1 to a save (call it a "tier bonus" that stacks with other "tier bonuses") - (this one can't be taken multiple times in a given level)
... or two level one advantages

Three advantages (so this would be something a tier 4 character would get) ...
gestalt level paired with commoner
... or some combination of two and one (one two + one one ... or ... three ones)

Four advantages
gestalt level paired with aristocrat, warrior or expert
... or some combination of the above adding to four

Level Adjustment
LA would be treated as Tier 4 (so you can get a commoner hit die for that level and some crappy skills) ... or you can always just add skill points / hit points / whatever

Racial hit die would be treated as a class ...
Dragon / Outsider probably tier 2 or 3
etc.



Issue #1:  Anyone have any feedback on adjusting these around?
Issue #2:  Have to rate each PrC ...
Issue #3:  Have to rate racial hit dice

bkdubs123

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Re: Working on a new mini-campaign
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2008, 01:56:51 AM »
The plot concept for this one will be "You play the monsters".

Is that what the campaign really is, or is that just the initial concept? It sounds like just the initial concept and that you've decided to make it just a regular dungeon crawl. If the campaign is actually, "you play the monsters" then make the players play monsters. Then, since monsters are generally a bit weaker than PCs since they are supposed to be killed, allow for some Tiered Gestalting to be thrown in. You can decide how much power you want to give the PCs by deciding exactly how powerful the NPCs (Heroes) will be. If the NPCs are all Fighters then the PCs will be just fine without any Gestalt rules. If the NPCs are a Warblade, a Crusader, an Archivst, and a Beguiler then the PCs might need some help.

ChristopherGroves

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Re: Working on a new mini-campaign
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2008, 10:36:10 AM »
Yeah, I'm pretty solid on the plot ... sorry I didn't do a good job of conveying what it was or why it was important to allow for the equality.

I'm updating the first post with some specific thoughts.

Bauglir

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Re: Balancing LA, racial hit-die and tiered classes for new game
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2008, 01:57:21 PM »
Just one thing; gestalting with commoner is practically worthless. d4 hit die, all bad saves, poor BAB, 2 skills per level (lousy list of class skills, too), no class features. All of those are the lowest any class goes, so they'll always take their normal class's abilities. The only thing you might get out of this is a slightly expanded class skill list.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

ChristopherGroves

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Re: Balancing LA, racial hit-die and tiered classes for new game
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2008, 02:00:21 PM »
I expect it to be mostly used with people who have their LA at that level ... d4 hit dice is *at least* a hit die. 

Those things running around with an LA of lots will get Holy/Unholy/Dictumed to death otherwise.  That's my safety valve.