Maximising Charisma

[Heliomance]

How best to get an insane charisma score? I'm building a ghost character, and I'd like to see how insane I can make its CHA, as it has major SAD. Charisma is pretty much the only score that matters, though I'd prefer my INT not to drop as I like my skillpoints. My current charisma:

18 initial +2 Spellscale +4 Ghost +6 Cloak of Charisma +3 age +3 level stat bumps = 36
I don't have enough gold left for a tome, so templates are the preferred way to go. How many (preferably fairly low LA) templates are there that boost charisma, don't change alignment (I've got paladin of freedom in the build) and are compatible with finishing up with ghost?

[Emy]

If you can use Dragon material, take the Magic-blooded template from Dragon 306. +0 LA, +2 CHA, -2 WIS, +2 to Know (Arcana) and Spellcraft, some minor SLAs, and favored class changed to Sorcerer.

[Heliomance]

Incidentally, if you have divine grace from two different sources, do you get charisma to saves twice?

[Prime32]

The half-succubus template grants +8 Cha. I can't think of a way to change your type back from outsider, though.

You might qualify for the ghost brute template (SS) instead of ghost - IIRC, it grants more Cha.

Incidentally, if you have divine grace from two different sources, do you get charisma to saves twice?

No

[Heliomance]

Ghost Brute  can only be applied to an animal, dragon, magical beast or plant with a CHA of 8 or lower.

[Rebel7284]

Draconic and Phrenic come to mind.

[Emy]

Draconic and Phrenic come to mind.

Phrenic has LA +2, though. Draconic has LA +1. These wouldn't be so bad, but they're on top of a +5 LA from being a Ghost. Ick.

[woodenbandman]

If you're not a spellcaster, it never hurt to take a level of Marshal. Add your Charisma to your Charisma if you wanna.

[Heliomance]

Not quite. Add your charisma to charisma checks and charisma based skill checks. This doesnt help for, eg, charisma to saves and ac.

[Rebel7284]

Draconic and Phrenic come to mind.

Phrenic has LA +2, though. Draconic has LA +1. These wouldn't be so bad, but they're on top of a +5 LA from being a Ghost. Ick.

Do you HAVE TO be a ghost?

[Heliomance]

The build is focused around Telekinesis. The reason I want a sky high charisma is to boost attack and damage on violent thrust through Master of the Unseen Hand. Gestalt game, so the LA is less important.

[Negative Zero]

I've been looking at making a Charisma based fighter for a good while. Let me dredge up my notepad document.

Alright. For race, try to get the Petal (MMIII) allowed. It says LA +2 (Cohort Only), but if you can get it allowed, it comes with a whopping +8 Cha.

If you can't, that's fine. There are other, less efficient ways. Basically, you won't get more than 2 points of Charisma per LA. Some of your options are: The aforementioned Half-Succubus template, +4 LA for +8 Cha, Radiant Creature (+3 LA, +6 Cha), Half-Fey (+2 LA, +4 Cha), and Half-Nymph (+2 LA, +4 Cha). If you want exceedingly high Charisma, Half-Nymph might not be a bad idea, because of the 'anyone who looks at you makes a will save or goes up one step on the fear ladder' thing, especially with a Charisma-based DC.

There are plenty of ways to get Charisma added to AC, saves, etc. but instead of listing those, I'll just link you to this very valuable resource; X Stat to Y bonus.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889

Good luck.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I believe kobold paragon or chameleon levels will add charisma... not sure how useful that is for you, though.


Bloodline levels could be OK - there's one that grants a charisma bonus, and you don't have spells levels to worry about losing...

[Heliomance]

Finished that build, result is here:
[SIZE=+1]Etherscale[/SIZE][/URL]
Male CG Magic-Blooded Spellscale Ghost Paladin of Freedom 2/Ranger 3/Scout 1/Master of the Unseen Hand 5/Scout 4//Ghost LA 5/Rogue 3/Master Thrower 5/Rogue 2, Level 15, Init +6, HP 103/103, Speed 25ft/x4;Fly 30ft (Perfect)
AC 24, Touch 24, Flat-footed 23, Fort +21, Ref +23, Will +20, Base Attack Bonus 14   
Telekinetically thrown +1 Frost Dart x5 +36 (4d6+15+1d6 Cold, 19-20/x3)
Telekinetically thrown +1 Shock Dart x5 +36 (4d6+15+1d6 Electric, 19-20/x3)
Telekinetically thrown +1 Corrosive Dart x5 +36 (4d6+15+1d6 Acid, 19-20/x3)
 (+1 Dex, +13 Deflect)
Abilities Str 2, Dex 12, Con -, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 38
Condition None

Regarding questionable Master Thrower/violent thrust interaction, the DM has okayed it.

[Emy]

Is it just me, or do you have prestige classes on both sides of the gestalt for levels 9, 10, and 11?

[Prime32]

AFB, but I think some hulking hurler levels could boost that build.

There was this build I made once which was a nymph with the half-succubus and terror vampire templates. Crazy-hard to kill without holy word, but not much oomph.

[Heliomance]

You're right, didn't realise that wasn't allowed. Hang on, I can shuffle the levels around...
There.
[SIZE=+1]Etherscale[/SIZE][/URL]
Male CG Magic-Blooded Spellscale Ghost Paladin of Freedom 2/Ranger 3/Scout 1/Master of the Unseen Hand 5/Scout 4//Ghost LA 5/Master Thrower 1/Rogue 5/Master Thrower 4, Level 15, Init +6, HP 103/103, Speed 25ft/x4;Fly 30ft (Perfect)
AC 24, Touch 24, Flat-footed 23, Fort +21, Ref +23, Will +20, Base Attack Bonus 14  
Telekinetically thrown +1 Frost Dart x5 +36 (4d6+15+1d6 Cold, 19-20/x3)
Telekinetically thrown +1 Shock Dart x5 +36 (4d6+15+1d6 Electric, 19-20/x3)
Telekinetically thrown +1 Corrosive Dart x5 +36 (4d6+15+1d6 Acid, 19-20/x3)
 (+1 Dex, +13 Deflect)
Abilities Str 2, Dex 12, Con -, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 38
Condition None

[RobbyPants]

Incidentally, if you have divine grace from two different sources, do you get charisma to saves twice?

While "Divine Grace" won't do this if you take it twice, you can stack Divine Grace and Dark Blessing if you take one of the evil paladin variants and black guard.  Also, you could get tripple your Cha mod to saves against spells and spell-like abilities with Arcane Resiliance form the hexblade.

Of course, the relies on qualifying for black guard, which really isn't a good PrC, and has two generally crappy feats as prereqs.

[Heliomance]

I've still got 15k gold lying around that I don't know what to do with. Consumable magic items are out, sustained ones are fine. What do you suggest?

[woodenbandman]

Actually just in general I suggest taking 3 levels in hexblade for Force of Personality and Mettle. That right there is a pretty much 95% chance to pass any save for no damage, ever, rather than for half. Even on a natural one that's gotta be like +27 will save

Oh shit you get Cha to saves vs spells, so you get +57 plus all kinds of save boosters on will saves, and I think you get +CHA on fort saves as an undead, right? or is it Wisdom? So you've just become immune to anything allowing a save, now that you've got evasion. I'd ditch those last 3 rogue or scout levels for hexblade, then you get evasion, mettle, probably a better hit die, a save boost, and a charisma based curse for minor fear.

I think hexblade might require nongood, though, so you'd need to go paladin of tyranny, but you don't necessarily have to kill everyone (unlike a paladin of slaughter), you just need to have plans working towards their eventual destruction.