Author Topic: The Factotum's Handbook  (Read 288564 times)

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Dictum Mortuum

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Re: The Factotum's Handbook
« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2009, 06:19:12 PM »
Brains over brawn is handy, but not as good as you think. I mean, ok, it's extra initiative, which is good. How much more tumble, balance, etc do you need? It's like saying that a improved initiative feat on crack is awesome.
About cunning surge, the wording is tricky and i'd hate to say that it de facto works that way. It's DM's territory.
Your example about cunning breach is silly. If shivering touch is awesome, that doesn't mean the ability is awesome, too.
You get cunning brilliance at level 19. From a personal experience, i've never played past level 15 on a long campaign. So i wouldn't bother with it. Also i doubt you get spellcasting, manifesting, etc, because those abilities are not listed as extraordinary.
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bogsnes

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Re: The Factotum's Handbook
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2009, 10:12:28 AM »
if you get Cunning Brilliance it is awesome, and that is what you should base it on...
also, from my lvl 12 Factotum from dispatching the message, I have 32 Int, and that gets me +19 or +20 pr something in Open Lock, even if I only have one rank in it, I have +20 to init, tripping gets boosted, LOTS of skills, grappling, disarming, bull-rushing, the list goes on...

It does even make the Factotum an awesome 3 level dip, and it is extremely good...

Cunning Breach is good against lots of things, but it is not that good, I suppose, but BoB is terribly misplaced.
I have built 3 Factotums, played 2 of them (and will start with the third soon), and all of them got LOTS of bonuses because of BoB

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: The Factotum's Handbook
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2009, 10:51:35 AM »
if you get Cunning Brilliance it is awesome, and that is what you should base it on...
also, from my lvl 12 Factotum from dispatching the message, I have 32 Int, and that gets me +19 or +20 pr something in Open Lock, even if I only have one rank in it, I have +20 to init, tripping gets boosted, LOTS of skills, grappling, disarming, bull-rushing, the list goes on...

It does even make the Factotum an awesome 3 level dip, and it is extremely good...

Cunning Breach is good against lots of things, but it is not that good, I suppose, but BoB is terribly misplaced.
I have built 3 Factotums, played 2 of them (and will start with the third soon), and all of them got LOTS of bonuses because of BoB

Are you even listening :S? Cunning brilliance won't see a lot of play, at least based on my standards. And ok, i can gain flurry of blows, rage, improved evasion, divine health, favored enemy, animal companion or maybe some rogue special abilities, for 1 minute a day. Also it is easily nerfed, because a strict reading of the first sentence implies that you need to witness an ability to actually duplicate it. It's ok, but not awesome.
Or you could just use knock to open that door instead of open lock. Combat moves won't matter much, unless you are building a tripper/grappler/etc. Initiative is of course a good thing. However the type of skills BoB boosts are physical ones, that you don't need high, as opposed to diplomacy, intimidate or UMD for some applications.
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bogsnes

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Re: The Factotum's Handbook
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2009, 03:32:28 PM »
for Cunning Brilliance:
I don't think you should base the awsomeness of an ability just on when you get it, so at least make it blue...
Yes it is easily nerfed, but still.

BoB:
Stealth is very useful too, Tripping can do that a smarty pants fighter that is tripping (or maybe warblade) could want a 3 level dip. It has lot of uses, and even though each of the uses not may be that good, it adds up... It is about 13-14 skills, I think? And every one thing like tripping, etc.
If there was just some of them, then I'd agree with you, but togheter it gets so much you get bonuses to that it gets awesome...

Straw_Man

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Re: The Factotum's Handbook
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2009, 03:45:08 PM »

  Everyone's allowed an opinion, but the handbook's writer/maintainer decides what goes in. I agree that Cunning Brilliance shouldn't be based on level of use, plenty of ECL 20 games out there - but the caveat that you mimic the abilities you observe at the beginning of the day means your duplicating abilities the party already has access to. Nothing wrong with that, just not that awesome for the party. Nice for you, decent for the party I'd say.
"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

bogsnes

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Re: The Factotum's Handbook
« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2009, 04:03:44 PM »
you observe at the beginning of the day

I have missed that :( , but it is still worth a blue in my opinion...

BoB should still be lightly blue though as after reading that I see that it is actually their best ability

Straw_Man

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Re: The Factotum's Handbook
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2009, 02:07:43 AM »

  Again, different strokes man. Their debate wont be pruned unless someone gets infantile so anyone looking through this handbook will see your opinion.
"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

Optimator

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Re: The Factotum's Handbook
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2009, 01:48:42 AM »

 I agree that Cunning Brilliance shouldn't be based on level of use, plenty of ECL 20 games out there - but the caveat that you mimic the abilities you observe at the beginning of the day means your duplicating abilities the party already has access to. N

I just reread the entry for Cunning Brilliance, and I don't think that's the case.  It says "...allows you to duplicate any ability you witness.  At the start of each day, chose three..."  I believe the period ending the sentence means the abilities don't need to be witnessed at the beginning of the day.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 01:50:41 AM by Optimator »

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: The Factotum's Handbook
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2009, 02:35:29 AM »
I just reread the entry for Cunning Brilliance, and I don't think that's the case.  It says "...allows you to duplicate any ability you witness.  At the start of each day, chose three..."  I believe the period ending the sentence means the abilities don't need to be witnessed at the beginning of the day.

Seconded. That's how i think it works, too.
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Straw_Man

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Re: The Factotum's Handbook
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2009, 02:58:12 AM »

  Fair enough. I've always found the wording ambigous myself and I try to take the most conservative readings for play. But at that point bognes' view holds, its a very good ability then.
"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: The Factotum's Handbook
« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2009, 03:19:14 AM »

  Fair enough. I've always found the wording ambigous myself and I try to take the most conservative readings for play. But at that point bognes' view holds, its a very good ability then.

flurry of blows, rage, improved evasion, divine health, favored enemy, animal companion and maybe some rogue special abilities

These are the most noteable (ex) abilities i could find from the PHB.

Others: steely resolve, furious counterstrike, mettle, weapon aptitude, sudden strike, skirmish, blindsight, lurk augments, samurai's intimidation abilities, insightful strike.

Again, it's good, but nothing fancy.
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Optimator

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Re: The Factotum's Handbook
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2009, 04:53:41 AM »
It's almost like the "Has the Druid even seen the animal he's turning into?" argument. 

Operation Shoestring

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Re: The Factotum's Handbook
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2009, 04:54:59 AM »

  Fair enough. I've always found the wording ambigous myself and I try to take the most conservative readings for play. But at that point bognes' view holds, its a very good ability then.

flurry of blows, rage, improved evasion, divine health, favored enemy, animal companion and maybe some rogue special abilities

These are the most noteable (ex) abilities i could find from the PHB.

Others: steely resolve, furious counterstrike, mettle, weapon aptitude, sudden strike, skirmish, blindsight, lurk augments, samurai's intimidation abilities, insightful strike.

Again, it's good, but nothing fancy.

Knight's Challenge is a good one too.  I doubt your DM will let you have an animal companion for 1 min/day though.

Straw_Man

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Re: The Factotum's Handbook
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2009, 06:30:21 AM »

  Have a trained animal handy and then bam! - AC.
"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

bogsnes

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Re: The Factotum's Handbook
« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2009, 04:03:09 PM »

  Fair enough. I've always found the wording ambigous myself and I try to take the most conservative readings for play. But at that point bognes' view holds, its a very good ability then.

flurry of blows, rage, improved evasion, divine health, favored enemy, animal companion and maybe some rogue special abilities

These are the most noteable (ex) abilities i could find from the PHB.

Others: steely resolve, furious counterstrike, mettle, weapon aptitude, sudden strike, skirmish, blindsight, lurk augments, samurai's intimidation abilities, insightful strike.

Again, it's good, but nothing fancy.

What happened to the Sorcerers or Favoured Souls spellcasting?
Or Fighter 11 Feats?
Or 25 known maneuvers with no recovery method (you do only duplicate known, and not ready, which means as a non-martial-adept you don't get any recovery method...

So, conlclusion is: It is awesome.

pfooti

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Re: The Factotum's Handbook
« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2009, 04:56:51 PM »
Hmm, continuing an older discussion, here's a scenario: actually playing all 20 levels, without retraining rules, so no fair sacrificing late power for early, it's important to grow organically with time. The PC needs to fill the trapfinding, skillmonkey and secondary combat roles in a relatively combat-heavy campaign that doesn't have a ton of magic items. In that situation, do you think it's worth going into chameleon, or staying factotum most of the way through. I'm definitely looking at a mindbender-1 dip at 6 (for mindsight), but beyond that I'm pretty free. It looks like factotum-8 is the clear breakpoint, after that the features are okay but not amazing, and extra inspiration points are always nice, but not necessary.

bogsnes

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Re: The Factotum's Handbook
« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2009, 05:04:19 PM »
well, either Factotum 8/Chameleon 10/Mindbender 1/something 1
or factotum 16/Chameleon 3/Mindbender 1 is what I would have done if you want Mindbender...

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: The Factotum's Handbook
« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2009, 10:07:32 PM »
What happened to the Sorcerers or Favoured Souls spellcasting?
Or Fighter 11 Feats?
Or 25 known maneuvers with no recovery method (you do only duplicate known, and not ready, which means as a non-martial-adept you don't get any recovery method...

So, conlclusion is: It is awesome.

I checked the entries again. No ability you mentioned was noted as (ex), not even in the description (i even did a search in the pdf files in case i am missing anything).
So, i guess you can house rule it, but it doesn't work that way.

//edit: and to add that no sane dm would allow it.

@pfooti: 11 is a nice breakpoint too.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 10:11:31 PM by Dictum Mortuum »
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bogsnes

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Re: The Factotum's Handbook
« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2009, 10:51:31 PM »
What happened to the Sorcerers or Favoured Souls spellcasting?
Or Fighter 11 Feats?
Or 25 known maneuvers with no recovery method (you do only duplicate known, and not ready, which means as a non-martial-adept you don't get any recovery method...

So, conlclusion is: It is awesome.

I checked the entries again. No ability you mentioned was noted as (ex), not even in the description (i even did a search in the pdf files in case i am missing anything).
So, i guess you can house rule it, but it doesn't work that way.

//edit: and to add that no sane dm would allow it.

@pfooti: 11 is a nice breakpoint too.

Everything is either Ex, Su, Sp or natural...
Feats and maneuvers are probably ex, though spellcasting is a little less obvius, but still...
The no sane DM part is right, though...

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: The Factotum's Handbook
« Reply #59 on: February 12, 2009, 11:17:58 PM »
Everything is either Ex, Su, Sp or natural...
Feats and maneuvers are probably ex, though spellcasting is a little less obvius, but still...
The no sane DM part is right, though...

So why assume they are (Ex) ?
It's actually not in my character to add debatable (at least that i am aware off) entries to my handbooks.
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