Author Topic: Some questions about exile  (Read 14890 times)

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Tshern

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Some questions about exile
« on: November 10, 2008, 06:32:13 PM »
I am the kind of person who wants to know the limits of everything, what buttons do I need to press in order activate the excrement catapults aiming at the vast field of fans. At some point when I was curing my disastrous hangover ubernoob got the boot (temporarily as far as I know) and a number of people had their gameology-fu function locked.

This made me curious. What was the last straw? Did anyone else get banned? Ubernoob admitted he was acting like an asshole and the quarrel with JaronK, as well as all its spawns, got out of control like a Catholic priest orchestrating a boy choir, so I am not trying to defend him. If someone wants to whine about me defending him, take that somewhere else, I don't want that here.

Then there actually is a matter I don't really like. I saw an edit in ubernoob's signature made by a moderator or admin. While there probably is a decent amount of reasoning behind that, I am still oblivious to it. Could anyone clarify that? Having authorities meddle with our signatures is not something I condone. Telling a user to remove/edit some of its content and giving an explanation is absolutely fine, all communities have rules and they ought to be respected. However, why was (or if that was not the course of action, then was happened) it just flatout edited?

To sum up, I am glad to see decisive action on behalf of the moderator team. When talking didn't cut it, you jumped into action, which is good. However, if I could get answers to these questions I'd feel a lot more satisfied.

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Some questions about exile
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2008, 07:22:32 PM »
I am the kind of person who wants to know the limits of everything, what buttons do I need to press in order activate the excrement catapults aiming at the vast field of fans. At some point when I was curing my disastrous hangover ubernoob got the boot (temporarily as far as I know) and a number of people had their gameology-fu function locked.

This made me curious. What was the last straw? Did anyone else get banned? Ubernoob admitted he was acting like an asshole and the quarrel with JaronK, as well as all its spawns, got out of control like a Catholic priest orchestrating a boy choir, so I am not trying to defend him. If someone wants to whine about me defending him, take that somewhere else, I don't want that here.

Then there actually is a matter I don't really like. I saw an edit in ubernoob's signature made by a moderator or admin. While there probably is a decent amount of reasoning behind that, I am still oblivious to it. Could anyone clarify that? Having authorities meddle with our signatures is not something I condone. Telling a user to remove/edit some of its content and giving an explanation is absolutely fine, all communities have rules and they ought to be respected. However, why was (or if that was not the course of action, then was happened) it just flatout edited?

To sum up, I am glad to see decisive action on behalf of the moderator team. When talking didn't cut it, you jumped into action, which is good. However, if I could get answers to these questions I'd feel a lot more satisfied.

The last straw was the panda incident, which was orchestrated for the purpose of showing Elennsar Fu wasn't a big deal so he would stop derailing threads with complaints about it. In essence, he was banned for being helpful.

The sig was edited to add in the warning against 'fu abuse'.

The fu locks was again the panda incident.

So basically all this shit is because Uber tried to help Elenn.
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Meg

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Re: Some questions about exile
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2008, 07:25:30 PM »
Good questions!

I waver on how much transparency we want here and how much to respect people's privacy.  I think the line for me is where it affects others, so as much as possible I'll try to stay in general terms, but names will be brought up, yes.

2 temp bans were recently handed out.  One was to uber.  I made it so both could still log in to see the boards but can't post.  The bans are for a week and part of it is a board experiment to see if things calm down with these 2 individuals gone or if the problems don't in fact lie with them at all.  

Part of it is that I have formalized another rule for the boards-- Don't be a pain in our ass.  Overall, the rule is "Don't be disruptive".  That's why there aren't black and white rules like "no spamming" or "no flaming"-- sometimes spam isn't disruptive and sometimes flaming is funny.  

There is a range though of disruption and once you've passed the sweet spot of safety, the hammer will be brought down.  Uber lept over this line and kept on going when we asked him to come back on the other side, hence the temp. ban.

This spot is going to be different for everyone though.  If you contribute and are productive, this negates some of the pain you may cause, but not entirely.

Some things that cause a pain in my virtual ass:
1) Getting multiple reported posts about you
2) Having people tell me they'll leave if you are allowed to continue
3) Having to spend time cleaning up your mess
4) Ignoring me or another mod when we tell you to cut it out
5) Continuing on a line of conversation after a thread has been closed.
6) Dragging petty bickering into on-topic, legitimate threads
7) Making the boards feel like a sandbox for whiny 12 year olds.
8 ) Asking for help but insulting me, the boards, and the moderators at the same time.  We don't have thin skin, but it doesn't paint you in a good picture to tell us we suck in the same message you are asking for help.  If you can't ask us constructively, how much of a benefit are you really on the boards?  Messaging us isn't an interview, but we're looking for people who can be mature.  Be mature when you are contacting me or the other moderators for the first time.  

This isn't a comprehensive list, just some of the things that I have experienced thus far.  

Impressions are a big deal.  This is the internet, I don't have a complete picture.  Maybe you are a great poster and I've just never seen your posts, but if you pm me and start calling me names, um, I'm naturally going to assume you are a troublemaker and not worth the effort (as an example).

So- going back to Uber- I'd like to say that no one would ever be surprised by a ban but I'm sure that's not necessarily the case.  What I can promise though is that the warning signs will all be there and it's up to you to notice them (us sending you messages to knock it off, posting in a thread to knock it off, or posts being deleted with a reason why in the garbage can).  

If you are ever curious where you stand, ask.  I'm trying to get better about giving people a head's up before it gets time to take action, but I want to balance that with not pushing people down a path they are just teetering on too.  If you get a message from me or another mod that says "Be careful"- it's feedback.  Take it or leave it.  If you want to continue posting uninterrupted on these boards though, you have to take it.  Ignoring it is your choice, but could very well lead to action being taken against you.

Don't make us want for you to leave.  If we want you gone, it may already be too late.  Prevent that from happening.

As for the fu issue and the signature change--

I posted at least 2 or 3 times that the fu request was completely out of line and was abusing the system.  I said at least twice that anyone giving or taking fu just because someone else asked would have their powers removed (temporarily).  But it kept happening.  Uber kept asking.  I said it again and it went in his sig.  

I changed his sig because people were still doing it even though I feel it's extremely clear in the g-fu thread that they shouldn't.  But benefit of the doubt, maybe not everyone saw that, so I edited.  I would've asked Uber to do it himself, but with being banned, I don't think he has access to it.  I don't forsee editing sigs as being a regular thing, though if you put something extremely inappropriate it it, chances are we'll just wipe it clean and tell you to start again.  

Please use this thread to ask any other questions about decisions I've made- I believe in giving whys behind and reasonings more than just blanket rules because I want everyone involved, so please ask!
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Tshern

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Re: Some questions about exile
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2008, 07:28:54 PM »
I know giving a warning was a reason to edit the signature. What I don't understand is why was ubernoob not warned about it (unless it happened via PM or I just missed it, this is why I am asking), but instead his signature was manipulated just like that.

Also, editing writings like that tend to get counter reactions.

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Prime32

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Re: Some questions about exile
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2008, 07:33:32 PM »
I posted at least 2 or 3 times that the fu request was completely out of line and was abusing the system.  I said at least twice that anyone giving or taking fu just because someone else asked would have their powers removed (temporarily).  But it kept happening.  Uber kept asking.  I said it again and it went in his sig.
I know giving a warning was a reason to edit the signature. What I don't understand is why was ubernoob not warned about it (unless it happened via PM or I just missed it, this is why I am asking), but instead his signature was manipulated just like that.
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Re: Some questions about exile
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2008, 07:37:38 PM »
I'm pretty sure that when they edited mod speak to his sig instead of just deleting the offending part it was to create a justification for later retroactively stripping people of the G-fu function for having given Uber the Fu he wanted even if they did it before the mods made that speech about it being against the rules.

Of course, that's probably going to be largely subjective, so in conclusion, this is a game called, moderators pretend to have justification for stripping G-fu from Uber-and-Co. A group that will just happen to include only people that they don't like.

Never mind my actual G-fu sends, which are -1 X-Code/After Crescent, +1 Tshern/Eli/emissary, -1 Uber (that's before he asked for it, since then it went to -2).

JaronK is not included because he went +1 and -1. None the less, they are going to strip G-fu for: "Blatant abuse of the G-fu system!" or some such bullshit, because apparently one time doing a favor for a friend (that had not yet been decried in any readable place) is blatant abuse.

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Re: Some questions about exile
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2008, 07:40:22 PM »
The last straw was the panda incident, which was orchestrated for the purpose of showing Elennsar Fu wasn't a big deal so he would stop derailing threads with complaints about it. In essence, he was banned for being helpful.

The sig was edited to add in the warning against 'fu abuse'.

The fu locks was again the panda incident.

So basically all this shit is because Uber tried to help Elenn.

Not true.  Uber's ban had nothing to do with Elenn.  The fu locks are minor, temporary and if anyone takes it too seriously I'm saying right now for full transparency that there is a good chance you won't get it back.  It was more of a "don't do this" and people kept doing it.  It should be common sense too for other folks to not just click on the button because someone asked.  Uber asking was an annoyance but it's the folks who clicked that I hold responsible.

And I do take offense to calling it "all this shit".  A few people loosing fu privileges for a few days isn't a shitstorm.  Uber's ban was for entirely unrelated issues.
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Re: Some questions about exile
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2008, 07:42:18 PM »
I know giving a warning was a reason to edit the signature. What I don't understand is why was ubernoob not warned about it (unless it happened via PM or I just missed it, this is why I am asking), but instead his signature was manipulated just like that.

Also, editing writings like that tend to get counter reactions.

And as I said- because his account is banned I don't think he can log in to edit himself.  I'm not sure.  So instead of deleting it outright, I didn't change anything he said, just put a warning in for people reading it.  Still his choice to keep it there.
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Re: Some questions about exile
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2008, 07:44:14 PM »
I'm pretty sure that when they edited mod speak to his sig instead of just deleting the offending part it was to create a justification for later retroactively stripping people of the G-fu function for having given Uber the Fu he wanted even if they did it before the mods made that speech about it being against the rules.

Of course, that's probably going to be largely subjective, so in conclusion, this is a game called, moderators pretend to have justification for stripping G-fu from Uber-and-Co. A group that will just happen to include only people that they don't like.

Never mind my actual G-fu sends, which are -1 X-Code/After Crescent, +1 Tshern/Eli/emissary, -1 Uber (that's before he asked for it, since then it went to -2).

JaronK is not included because he went +1 and -1. None the less, they are going to strip G-fu for: "Blatant abuse of the G-fu system!" or some such bullshit, because apparently one time doing a favor for a friend (that had not yet been decried in any readable place) is blatant abuse.

Read the gfu threads.  I had said there and elsewhere not to do it.  The edit in the sig was after the fact I said not to do it and to prevent future people from doing it.  Don't abuse the system.

And FYI- this sort of whining about fu is what I'm talking about when I say that there is a chance you may not get it back.  Not being able to click for a week is nothing.  Learn your lesson and move on. 
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Tshern

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Re: Some questions about exile
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2008, 07:53:00 PM »
Good questions!
I do my best.

Quote
I waver on how much transparency we want here and how much to respect people's privacy.  I think the line for me is where it affects others, so as much as possible I'll try to stay in general terms, but names will be brought up, yes.
Every situation is unique, that doesn't make it any easier. In general I'd like to know when a punishment of some sort is handed out so people would know to avoid those mistakes. PM discussions are a different matter of course, but informing us of bannings and disablings of the fu-function would be neat.

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2 temp bans were recently handed out.  One was to uber.  I made it so both could still log in to see the boards but can't post.  The bans are for a week and part of it is a board experiment to see if things calm down with these 2 individuals gone or if the problems don't in fact lie with them at all.
A good solution really, posting creates problems, not reading.

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Part of it is that I have formalized another rule for the boards-- Don't be a pain in our ass.  Overall, the rule is "Don't be disruptive".  That's why there aren't black and white rules like "no spamming" or "no flaming"-- sometimes spam isn't disruptive and sometimes flaming is funny.
Open for a lot of subjectivity, but, on the other hand, flexibility can be good. Merely stating that writing 'fuck' is totally forbidden in all cases usually is a bad solution. We've had surprisingly little large fights here and I'd like to give flexibility some credit for that.

Quote
There is a range though of disruption and once you've passed the sweet spot of safety, the hammer will be brought down.  Uber lept over this line and kept on going when we asked him to come back on the other side, hence the temp. ban.
As I said, I support that solution. If a moderator doesn't lay down the law, there is no point to follow the rules.

Quote
1) Getting multiple reported posts about you
Agreed, especially if they come from multiple people.

Quote
2) Having people tell me they'll leave if you are allowed to continue
Damn, this was a lot more dramatic than I thought. Beats my relationship drama of the weekend.

Quote
3) Having to spend time cleaning up your mess
Again agreed, this is a hobby, not a profession.

Quote
4) Ignoring me or another mod when we tell you to cut it out
Ditto.

Quote
5) Continuing on a line of conversation after a thread has been closed.
Ditto.

Quote
6) Dragging petty bickering into on-topic, legitimate threads
I all for arguing about stuff, but they should be taken to specific threads. The Duel of Wits didn't work as I was hoped it would, but at least it was taken there.

Quote
7) Making the boards feel like a sandbox for whiny 12 year olds.
I hate kids, so I must agree.

Quote
8 ) Asking for help but insulting me, the boards, and the moderators at the same time.  We don't have thin skin, but it doesn't paint you in a good picture to tell us we suck in the same message you are asking for help.  If you can't ask us constructively, how much of a benefit are you really on the boards?  Messaging us isn't an interview, but we're looking for people who can be mature.  Be mature when you are contacting me or the other moderators for the first time.  
Does this one regard Elenssar or ubernoob?

Quote
If you are ever curious where you stand, ask.  I'm trying to get better about giving people a head's up before it gets time to take action, but I want to balance that with not pushing people down a path they are just teetering on too.  If you get a message from me or another mod that says "Be careful"- it's feedback.  Take it or leave it.  If you want to continue posting uninterrupted on these boards though, you have to take it.  Ignoring it is your choice, but could very well lead to action being taken against you.
That's why I made the thread, to get clarifications. I didn't want to start ranting without actually knowing the case.

Quote
I posted at least 2 or 3 times that the fu request was completely out of line and was abusing the system.  I said at least twice that anyone giving or taking fu just because someone else asked would have their powers removed (temporarily).  But it kept happening.  Uber kept asking.  I said it again and it went in his sig.  
Too bad I don't know the options you had handy, so I am at a disadvantage, if I start to criticise your choice. However, editing ones signature/posts is something I would not do lightly.

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Please use this thread to ask any other questions about decisions I've made- I believe in giving whys behind and reasonings more than just blanket rules because I want everyone involved, so please ask!
Heck, I could have a Rant box like this on every subforum!

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Tshern

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Re: Some questions about exile
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2008, 07:55:46 PM »
Prime32: Yeah, and I even managed to post before reading her post... Stupid fingers.

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Kaelik

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Re: Some questions about exile
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2008, 08:02:34 PM »
Read the gfu threads.  I had said there and elsewhere not to do it.  The edit in the sig was after the fact I said not to do it and to prevent future people from doing it.  Don't abuse the system.

And FYI- this sort of whining about fu is what I'm talking about when I say that there is a chance you may not get it back.  Not being able to click for a week is nothing.  Learn your lesson and move on.

And this is my problem. Going with out Fu for a bit? Who cares. I didn't even use it much. It's the blatant disregard for any sense or semblance of fairness or consistency that's my problem.

You stripped fu from people from for not reading a 40 page thread in the metaboard? Instead of just saying, "Yeah, it may be a little extreme, but I was trying to deal with the problem quickly." You tell me to shut my mouth, and "learn my lesson." What pray tell is that lesson? That BG is yours alone and how dare I corrupt your precious G-fu by accident? How dare I disagree with a moderator?

Great, lesson learned. How do I delete my account.

Yeah, lesson fucking learned. How do I delete my account.

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Re: Some questions about exile
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2008, 08:07:00 PM »
Read the gfu threads.  I had said there and elsewhere not to do it.  The edit in the sig was after the fact I said not to do it and to prevent future people from doing it.  Don't abuse the system.

And FYI- this sort of whining about fu is what I'm talking about when I say that there is a chance you may not get it back.  Not being able to click for a week is nothing.  Learn your lesson and move on.

And this is my problem. Going with out Fu for a bit? Who cares. I didn't even use it much. It's the blatant disregard for any sense or semblance of fairness or consistency that's my problem.

You stripped fu from people from for not reading a 40 page thread in the metaboard? Instead of just saying, "Yeah, it may be a little extreme, but I was trying to deal with the problem quickly." You tell me to shut my mouth, and "learn my lesson." What pray tell is that lesson? That BG is yours alone and how dare I corrupt your precious G-fu by accident? How dare I disagree with a moderator?

Great, lesson learned. How do I delete my account.

Yeah, lesson fucking learned. How do I delete my account.

And here is my dilemma. 

I made a ruling, posted about it in the original thread which was asking for people to neg Uber's fu and it obviously didn't get to everyone.  I then posted about it in the thread about g-fu.  It still didn't get to everyone.  This is why I edited Uber's sig so people wouldn't have to dig for my rulings. 

Does anyone have any ideas for better systems?  I don't want to have to repeat myself a million times, but I do expect that if there are rules, you read them and are held accountable even if you don't read them.  But I don't want everyone to have to follow me around and read every word I type either.

I'm looking for interesting, relatively low energy solutions.  Anyone have any?
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Re: Some questions about exile
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2008, 08:09:30 PM »
Even I found some of Elenssar's posts offensive, they crossed the line quite a few times. But about 13 members? Was that figure picked because of the value of the negative fu ubernoob wanted or did around a dozen people lose their access to g-fu? So far I've seen Kaelik, uber, Elenssar and Sunic lose their access to it and as of now I can think of no-one else.

Out of curiosity, were people who actually 'awarded' ubernoob with negative fu given a penalty of some sort?

Thanks for the examples, they were good.

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Re: Some questions about exile
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2008, 08:15:33 PM »
Even I found some of Elenssar's posts offensive, they crossed the line quite a few times. But about 13 members? Was that figure picked because of the value of the negative fu ubernoob wanted or did around a dozen people lose their access to g-fu? So far I've seen Kaelik, uber, Elenssar and Sunic lose their access to it and as of now I can think of no-one else.

Out of curiosity, were people who actually 'awarded' ubernoob with negative fu given a penalty of some sort?

Thanks for the examples, they were good.

I did end up giving him a single negative vote, then let it go. *shrugs*
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Tshern

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Re: Some questions about exile
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2008, 08:19:08 PM »
I see, I see. This is speculation, but I think that didn't cause you your fu-function.

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Re: Some questions about exile
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2008, 08:19:43 PM »
I agree with Tshern on the editing of signatures. I understand why you did so, and it makes sense, but with an abuse of the system like that, I'm almost tempted to say it would be easier and less complicated to just wipe their signature clean.
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Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie

Tshern

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Re: Some questions about exile
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2008, 08:23:37 PM »
I agree with Tshern on the editing of signatures. I understand why you did so, and it makes sense, but with an abuse of the system like that, I'm almost tempted to say it would be easier and less complicated to just wipe their signature clean.
That is editing the signature as well. To me adding in a notion is a lot more civil and understandable than just erasing ones opinions, wishes, hopes, whines, rants, bitchings or anything in its entirety.

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AfterCrescent

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Re: Some questions about exile
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2008, 08:31:35 PM »
I was thinking editing as changing vs deleting. :shrug

What would you suggest be done in a situation like the above? Where a rule is made, and maybe hasn't become common knowledge yet, and a poster encourages the rule to be broken in his signature? Or links porn in his signature, or something like that?
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The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
The 13th Guard - An alternate history campaign idea.
Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie