Author Topic: Spells: Retheorizing, Rebalancing, Reorganizing  (Read 4338 times)

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bkdubs123

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Spells: Retheorizing, Rebalancing, Reorganizing
« on: November 09, 2008, 09:48:54 PM »
Well, I have my own ideas about this apart from Robby's and sometimes I think we might be able to move in the same direction, but often we may not, so I decided to make my own thread here. Let's start with my theory for spellcasting:

THEORY: Spells should be game changers, able to shape the entire face of an encounter with their awesome power. If we accept that a party should face an average of 4 encounters per day then any spellcaster should only be able to cast 4 spells per day, because each one is so amazing as to restructure the entire encounter in the players' favor. Basically, however many encounters a party should be expected to face in a day should be how many spells spellcasters can cast in a day.

CONSEQUENCES: If spellcasters can only cast spells, and if these spells are as powerful as mentioned above, then the spellcaster will at his first action change the course of the encounter and then have nothing to do for the remainder of the encounter. This is not fun for the spellcaster at all. Now, note however, the above theory does not say anything about a single spell having the ability to defeat an encounter on its own, but merely to effect the encounter to give the players the best circumstances and advantages to come out on top. As a result of having such limited, but powerful resources spellcasters will need to be given other abilities/faculties to call upon so that they have something meaningful to do on rounds, and during noncombat situations, when they are not shaping the fortunes of those around them.

IDEAS: Spellcasters don't have to just cast spells! They can be meaningful warriors, they can have inexhaustible fonts of magical power (like a Warlock), they can be dedicated skill monkeys, they can do lots of stuff, because regardless they will be effective in combat because of their powerful spell effects. It all depends on the flavor. A Duskblade type character would cast powerful buff spells that would effect the entire party and then wade into combat imbuing his attacks with not-spell-level power, but magical effects nonetheless. A Wizard type character might cast powerful battlefield control spells that hinder enemy movement, or debuff their stats, and then stand back firing magic missiles and delivering single target, short duration, buff/debuffs. A Cleric might smite the entire battlefield, scouring foes with holy fire, while simultaneously buffing his allies. Thoughts on this approach? These ideas mostly make the mechanics of the Warlock class obsolete as I am talking about giving these spellcasters not-quite-spell-level power, but in at-will doses.

BALANCE: Spells are not all created equal. There are clearly some first level spells that are better than others, and this trend continues throughout all nine spell levels. If we continue to proceed with the above theory that means all spells when they are made available must be game-changers. That means Sleep is a good 1st level spell, but Nystul's Magic Aura is not. Color Spray probably is, Ray of Enfeeblement probably is not. In order to maintain the theory spells can be moved around, or omitted entirely. Spells like Nystul's Magic Aura should be a cantrip at best. Spells like Shield or Mage Armor might be able to be worked into "invocations" of sorts, the at-will magical powers I spoke of above. Spells like Burning Hands have potential to change the scope of entire encounter, but need to be empowered.

CALL TO ARMS: The rebalancing step is something I'm going to need some help on. I've set down to work on it on three separate occasions and only completed the first level spells once (and actually not truly). What I'm asking for are volunteers who might be willing to help me systematically go through each level of spells, each list of spells, and through as many books featuring spells as we can and pick out which spells are worthless/have no effect on an encounter (or too negligible to matter) and remove them, which spells aren't quite powerful enough to effect the scope of an entire encounter but are still useful (Mage Armor, Detect Thoughts, Hold Person) and set them aside for work, which spells have potential to effect the scope of an entire encounter but do not do it strongly enough (Burning Hands, Shatter, Magic Circle Against Evil) and set them aside for work, and finally which spells within their appropriate level are powerful enough to effect an entire encounter in a meaningful way (Sleep, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, etc).

ORGANIZATION: We can achieve the model that spells are game-changers by utilizing the existing spells as written in the PHB and other books, however things will need shifted around, reordered, reorganized. In one of Robby's rebalacing threads somebody mentioned limiting Clerics spell lists by forcing them to choose a few domains and allowing them only to cast spells from those domains (with a small universal list for everybody). I think this sort of thing is a fantastic idea, and one that can be applied to Wizards as well. No more need for specialist wizards, or Warmages, or Beguilers. Split arcane spells into domains with domain powers. Allow Wizards/Clerics to pick up 2 or 3 domains at first level and to gain more as they gain levels, but ALSO, give them the option of eschewing domains and domain powers in order to access spells from any domain, but at a slower pace. Giving up the domain powers and lowering the rate at which they get more powerful spells should balance this out.

RESULTS: The important part. What I hope to finally achieve is to rebalance spells into properly powerful effects that can only be used a limited number of times each day, and then to reorganize them into small packages of effects - domains. Spellcasters would choose their domains and would only be able to cast a limited number of spells from their domains each day. It would also be entirely possible to grant the lesser at-will powers via these domains as well. There might be a Battleblessing Domain which features spells like Magic Circle Against Evil, Globe of Invulnerability, and Prismatic Sphere along with "invocations" such as Mage Armor, Protection from Arrows, and Mind Blank.

bkdubs123

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Re: Spells: Retheorizing, Rebalancing, Reorganizing
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2008, 04:23:34 AM »
**Note: Yep. F&K's spheres system just didn't work for me. Back to normalish domain looking stuff.

War Domain (Complete!)
[spoiler]Granted Power: You gain bonus feats chosen from the Warlord's or Sohei's list of Combat Feats at 1st, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th levels. You must still meet those feats' prerequisites. For the purposes of qualifying for these feats, and these feats only, treat your ability scores as 2 higher than normal, 3 higher at 6th level, 4 higher at 12th level and 5 higher at 18th level.

The save DCs of spells available with the War Domain are Wisdom based.

Spell Lv - Greater Spells
  1st    -   Magic Circle (Against [Alignment], chosen at casting)
  2nd    -   Haste/Slow
  3rd    -   Shout
  4th    -   Wall of Greater Dispel Magic
  5th    -   Antimagic Field
  6th    -   Greater Shout
  7th    -   Prismatic Wall/Sphere
  8th    -   Heal, Mass
  9th    -   Implosion


Lesser Spells
1st - Mage Armor (includes a +2 shield bonus), Resist Energy, True Strike (+10 to hit), Warning Shout^, Blade of Blood*, Arrow Mind^, Fist of Stone^, Heroics^, Whirling Blade^ (20ft line), Knight's Move (15ft move always)^

2nd - Crown of Protection*, Heroism, Wind Wall, Dance of Blades*, Critical Strike^, Backbiter^, Dispelling Touch*

3rd - Sonic Shield*, Halt*, Benign Transposition^ (Move Action cast time), Ghost Touch Armor^, Iron Silence^

4th - Moment of Prescience, Regroup*, Wraithstrike^, Death Armor^

5th - Daze Monster (no HD limit), Tactical Precision^, Scale Weakening^

6th - Tenser's Transformation, Greater Dispelling Touch, Bladeweave^

7th - True Seeing, Hold Monster

8th - Stoneskin, Toxic Weapon*

9th - Protection from Spells, Foresight (see below)

NOTE: Foresight - Clarification on what the damn thing does: whenever something is about to happen to you, as an immediate action you can take a standard or move action.[/spoiler]

Evoker Domain (Complete!)
[spoiler]Granted Power: Whenever you cast a spell that deals energy damage add 1/2 your caster level +2 to the damage dealt, to a maximum of twice the spell's level. Additionally, you gain energy resistance to cold, electricity, and fire equal to 1/2 your caster level +2.

The save DCs of spells available with the Evoker Domain are Charisma based.

Spell Lv - Greater Spells
  1st    -   Energy Sphere (as Flaming Sphere, but either cold, electric, or fire)
  2nd    -   Force Missiles^ (each missile deals the extra damage from your granted power; one missile/three caster levels)
  3rd    -   Storm Strike^ (as Greater Fireburst, deals electric damage instead)
  4th    -   Fire Shield, Mass
  5th    -   Field of Icy Razors^
  6th    -   Energy Explosion (as Fireball, but either acid, cold, electric, fire, or sonic; failed save pushes enemies to edge of area, prone; successful save just knocks  prone, no maximum damage dice)
  7th    -   Wall of Retorts (as Wall of Force, touching it deals 1d6 force damage/level, will halves, if save fails creature is dazed)
  8th    -   Energy Disaster^ (as Firebrand, but either cold, electric, or fire; multiple bursts DO overlap, but allow for multiple saves)
  9th    -   Prismatic Cloud^ (as Solid Fog meets Prismatic Mist, damage dice dealt are per level, str damage effect is 1d6+1/three caster levels Fort halves)


Lesser Spells
1st - Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp, Magic Missile, Protection from Energy, Chill Touch, Lesser Energy Surge*, Energy Orb (Cold, Electric, or Fire)^, Thunderhead^, Babau Slime^, Sonic Blast^

2nd - Battering Ram^, Melf's Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, Energy Aegis*, Seeking Ray*, Ice Dagger^, Balor Nimbus^

3rd - Kelgore's Grave Mist*, Fire Shield, Shatter, Electric Vengeance*, Combust^

4th - Channeled Evocation (As Channeled Pyroburst, but choice of acid, cold, electric, or fire)*, Persistent Blade^, Polar Ray, Energy Immunity^

5th - Energy Surge*, Heart of [Acid, Cold, Electric, or Fire] (As As the Frost, but one of the four)*, Prismatic Ray^

6th - Slashing Dispel*, Greater Electric Vengeance*, Electric Loop^

7th - Energy Vulnerability*, Prismatic Mist*

8th - Freeze (8d6 initial cold damage)^, Greater Energy Surge*

9th - Detonate*, Prismatic Sphere[/spoiler]

Vivicious Domain (Complete!)
[spoiler]Granted Power: Whenever you cast a spell that restores hitpoint damage add 1/2 your caster level +2 to the damage restored. Whenever you cast a spell that restores ability damage/drain add 1/three caster levels to the ability damage/drain restored. Whenever you would gain negative levels, or take ability damage/drain, reduce those levels or damage/drain by 1 and by an additional 1 at 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level (reducing them by 5 at 20th level).

The save DCs of spells available with the Vivacious Domain are Wisdom based.

Spell Lv - Greater Spells
  1st    -   Cure Light Wounds, Mass
  2nd    -   Vigorous Circle^
  3rd    -   Cure Critical Wounds, Mass
  4th    -   Hallow/Unhallow
  5th    -   Undeath to Death
  6th    -   Heal, Mass
  7th    -   Raise Dead
  8th    -   Greater Restoration, Mass
  9th    -   True Resurrection


Lesser Spells
1st - Cure Light Wounds (can't heal more than 50% max hp), Status, Detect Undead, Hide from Undead, Sanctuary, Undead Bane Weapon, Invest Light Protection (can't be used except during combat encounters)*, Conviction^, Ghost Touch Armor^, Close Wounds^

2nd - Cure Moderate Wounds (can't heal more than 50% max hp), Death Ward, Death Knell, Consecrate, Searing Light, Mark of Judgment*, Healing Spirit*

3rd - Cure Serious Wounds (can't heal more than 50% max hp), Neutralize Poison (can't be used except during combat encounters), Invest Moderate Protection (can't be used except during combat encounters)*, Channeled Divine Health (can't heal more than 50% max hp)*, Righteous Burst*

4th - Cure Critical Wounds (can't heal more than 50% max hp), Lesser Restoration (can't be used except during combat encounters), Bolt of Glory^, Resurgence^

5th - Invest Heavy Protection (can't be used except during combat encounters)*, Renewed Vigor*, Greater Consumptive Field^

6th - Break Enchantment (can't be used except during combat encounters), Panacea (can't be used except during combat encounters)^, Disrupting Weapon

7th - Greater Restoration (can't be used except during combat encounters), Invest Superior Protection (8d4, DR 10/evil; can't be used except during combat encounters)

8th - Heal (can't be used except during combat encounters), Holy Star^

9th - Invest Epic Protection (12d4, DR 15/evil and epic; can't be used except during combat encounters), Revivify^ (can't be used except during combat encounters)[/spoiler]

Retribution Domain (Complete!)
[spoiler]Granted Power: You gain a Vengeance Pool equal to 15 +15/two caster levels (5 at first level, 35 at 18th). Whenever you or an ally are dealt damage add that damage to your Vengeance Pool. For each 10 points in the Vengeance Pool you deal +1 damage whenever you deal damage. For every 30 points in the Vengeance Pool you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls and to your caster level. At the end of each of your turns remove all points from the Vengeance Pool.

The save DCs of spells available with the Retribution Domain are Charisma based.

Spell Lv - Greater Spells
  1st    -   Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass
  2nd    -   Crushing Despair
  3rd    -   Righteous Wrath of the Faithful^
  4th    -   Storm of Vengeance
  5th    -   Banishment
  6th    -   Song of Discord^
  7th    -   Opalescent Glare^
  8th    -   Bestow Curse, Mass
  9th    -   Circle of Death


Lesser Spells
1st - Rhino's Rush^, Corrosive Grasp^, Rage, Doom, Cause Fear, Blood Wind^, Critical Strike^, Blade of Blood*, Resist Energy, Black Karma Curse*

2nd - Heat/Chill Metal, Scare, Death Knell, Infernal Wound^, Blade of Pain and Fear^, Curse of Impending Blades^, Earthbind^

3rd - Bane, Divine Retaliation*, Curse of Ill Fortune^, Know Vulnerabilities^, Bands of Steel^

4th - Fear, Awaken Sin^, Blade Barrier, Death Throes^

5th - Mark of Doom*, Shout, Zone of Revelation^

6th - Enervation, Bestow Curse, Trap the Soul

7th - Pulse of Hate*, Rusting Grasp

8th - Greater Shout, Tenser's Transformation

9th - Harm, Greater Bestow Curse[/spoiler]

Necrologia Domain (Near Complete)
[spoiler]Granted Power:

The save DCs of spells available with the Necrologia Domain are Intelligence based.

Spell Lv - Greater Spells
  1st    -   Slay Living (kills creature with 15hp +5/caster level or fewer)
  2nd    -   Doom Scarabs (1d6/caster level damage, max 10d6)*
  3rd    -   Waves of Fatigue
  4th    -   Spiritwall^
  5th    -   Create Greater Undead
  6th    -   Waves of Exhaustion
  7th    -   Avascular Mass^
  8th    -   Plague of Undead^
  9th    -   Avasculate, Mass (no ray attacks, two saves, one against the hitpoint halving, another against the stunning effect)


Lesser Spells
1st - Ray of Clumsiness^, Cause Fear, Command Undead (only one Undead can be commanded at a time), Gentle Repose, Doom, Blade of Blood*, Detect Undead, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Death Knell, Spirit Worm^

2nd - Blade of Pain and Fear^, Vampiric Touch, Halt Undead, False Life, Scare, Undead Torch^, Speak with Dead

3rd - Ray of Enfeeblement, Kelgore's Grace Mist*, Inflict Critical Wounds, Desecrate, Crown of the Grave*

4th - Touch of Idiocy, Spectral Hand, Animate Dead, Fear

5th - Symbol of Pain, Control Undead, Revenance^

6th - Bestow Curse, Symbol of Fear, Create Undead

7th - Bleakness*, Eyebite

8th - Feeblemind, Ghoul Touch

9th - Finger of Death, Withering Palm[/spoiler]

Courage Domain (Complete!)
[spoiler]Granted Power: You gain a +5 bonus to saving throws against Fear effects, which increases by +1 at 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter. You also add 1/2 this bonus (rounded down) to all other saving throws against other mind-afflicting effects. Allies within 15ft gain 1/2 this bonus (rounded down).

The save DCs of spells available with the Courage Domain are Charisma based.

Spell Lv - Greater Spells
  1st    -   Good Hope
  2nd    -   Vigorous Circle^
  3rd    -   Shout
  4th    -   Resurgence, Mass^
  5th    -   Lion's Roar^
  6th    -   Greater Shout
  7th    -   Fierce Pride of the Beastlands^
  8th    -   Energy Immunity, Mass^
  9th    -   Greater Lion's Roar (1d12 damage/two caster levels, allies are healed 1d4 damage/two caster levels, allies gain +4 bonus to all ability scores, in addition to normal effects of Lion's Roar)^


Lesser Spells
1st - Beastland Ferocity^, Ironthunder Horn^, Joyful Noise^, Delusions of Grandeur^, Mindless Rage^, Speak to Allies^, Know Opponent^, Alarm, Cause Fear, Aid

2nd - Remove Fear (Can only be used on a target above 50% hitpoints), Heroism, Scare , Healing Spirit*, Prayer, Death Ward, Crown of Smiting*

3rd - Battlehymn^, Lively Step^, Glyph of Warding, Fell the Greatest Foe^, Righteous Burst*

4th - War Cry^, Alter Fortune*, Hesitate*, Voice of the Dragon^

5th - Allegro^, Chasing Perfection*, Wail of Doom^

6th - Unluck^, Break Enchantment (can't be used except during combat encounters), Righteous Might

7th - Thunder Field*, Greater Glyph of Warding

8th - Symbol of Fear, Greater Visage of the Deity

9th - Heal, Weird[/spoiler]

Travel Domain (Complete!)
[spoiler]Granted Power: You gain the Flawless Stride ability as a Wildheart, and gain a +5 bonus to speed/two caster levels.

The save DCs of spells available with the Travel Domain are Wisdom based.

Spell Lv - Greater Spells
  1st    -   Surestrider, Mass (Surefooted + Longstrider + Mass)^
  2nd    -   Allegro^
  3rd    -   Dimension Shuffle* (enemies that fail a second save are confused 1d4 rounds)
  4th    -   Freedom of Movement, Mass
  5th    -   Fly, Mass
  6th    -   Greater Dimension Door, Mass^
  7th    -   Greater Blink, Mass^
  8th    -   Etherealness
  9th    -   Maze, Mass


Lesser Spells
1st -  Longstrider, Comprehend Languages, Feather Fall (immediate action), Jump (+10, swift action casting), Undetectable Alignment, Whispering Wind, Ray of Clumsiness^, Stolen Breath^, Lesser Celerity*, Ray of the Python*

2nd - Regroup*, Swift Dimension Hop*, Grease, Locate Object, Tongues, Benign Transposition (move action casting)^, Iron Silence^

3rd - Spider Climb, Expeditious Retreat, Baleful Transposition (move action casting)^, Zone of Respite^, Downdraft^

4th - Fly, Dimension Step*, Ray of Dizziness^, Blink

5th - Freedom of Movement, Snake's Swiftness (swift action casting)^, Shadow Well^

6th - Baleful Blink*, Shadow Phase^, Translocation Trick (move action casting)^

7th - Gaseous Form, Dimension Door

8th - Greater Blink^, Maze

9th - Ethereal Jaunt, Imprison[/spoiler]

Nature Domain (Complete!)
[spoiler]Granted Power: At 1st level you gain the Wild Empathy and Resist Nature's Lure features of the original Druid class. At 2nd level and every even level thereafter you gain a Terrain Mastery selected from the Horizon Walker's list of Terrain Masteries (DMG 189) and all the benefits thereof. Starting at 12th level you may gain Planar Terrain Masteries. At 2nd, 8th, 14th, and 20th levels you can forgo gaining a Terrain Mastery in order to gain a Favored Enemy as the original Ranger class.

The save DCs of spells available with the Nature Domain are Wisdom based.

Spell Lv - Greater Spells
  1st    -   Entangle
  2nd    -   Insect Plague ("summon" spell)
  3rd    -   Sunburst
  4th    -   Control Weather
  5th    -   Creeping Doom ("summon" spell)
  6th    -   Greater Sunburst (30ft radius, 12d6 damage)
  7th    -   Shambler ("summon" spell)
  8th    -   Elemental Swarm ("summon" spell)
  9th    -   Red Tide (sickened for the encounter, nauseated for 1 round)


Lesser Spells
1st - Summon Nature's Ally I ("summon" spell; you can only have a single "summon" spell in effect at a time), Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Detect Animals or Plants, Command Plants, Faerie Fire, Beastland Ferocity^, Shillelagh, Animalistic Power*, Obscuring Mist

2nd - Summon Nature's Ally II ("summon" spell), Find Traps, Gust of Wind, Heat/Chill Metal, Protection from Energy, Dominate Animal, Snare

3rd - Summon Nature's Ally III ("summon" spell), Fog Cloud, Call Lightning, Animal Growth, Wall of Fire

4th - Winter's Embrace^, Summon Nature's Ally IV ("summon" spell), Sunbeam, Burrow^

5th - Lion's Charge^, Summon Nature's Ally V ("summon" spell), Stormtower^

6th - Summon Nature's Ally VI ("summon" spell), Storm of Elemental Fury^, Stormrage^

7th - Summon Nature's Ally VII ("summon" spell), Tremor^

8th - Summon Greater Elemental ("summon" spell)^, Extract Water Elemental^

9th - Summon Elemental Monolith ("summon" spell)^, Whirlwind[/spoiler]

Illusion Domain (Complete!)
[spoiler]Granted Power: You gain a +5 bonus to saves versus Illusion spells and to all Will Disbelief saves, which increases by +1 at 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter. You also add 1/2 this bonus (rounded down) to all other saving throws against other mind-afflicting effects. Allies within 15ft gain 1/2 this bonus (rounded down).

The save DCs of spells available with the Illusion Domain are Intelligence based.

Spell Lv - Greater Spells
  1st    -   Legion of Sentinels*
  2nd    -   Hypnotic Pattern
  3rd    -   Vertigo Field*
  4th    -   Friend to Foe*
  5th    -   Rainbow Pattern
  6th    -   Veil
  7th    -   Illusory Pit^
  8th    -   Scintillating Pattern
  9th    -   Greater Invisibility, Mass


Lesser Spells
1st - Disguise Self, Minor Image, Misdirection, Illusory Script, Crown of Veils*, Phantom Foe^, Wall of Gloom^, Shadow Cache^, Delusions of Grandeur^, Distract Assailant (Swift action cast)^

2nd - Swift Invisibility, Invisibility Purge, Vertigo*, Whelming Blast*, Shadow Binding^, Major Image, Net of Shadows^

3rd - Blur, Invisibility, Illusory Wall, Persistent Image, Phantom Battle*

4th - Blinding Color Surge*, Mirror Image, Mirage Arcana, Mass Whelm*

5th - Swift Greater Invisibility, Vertigo Field*, Sting Ray^

6th - Greater Invisibility, Shadow Spray^, Shadow Well^

7th - Stunning Color Surge (As Blinding Color Surge, except target is stunned and blinded, and you turn invisible as Greater Invisibility for 2 rounds), Greater Mirror Image*

8th - Shifting Paths^, Phantasmal Assailants^

9th - Superior Invisibility^, Overwhelm*[/spoiler]

Destruction Domain (In Progress)
[spoiler]Granted Power:

The save DCs of spells available with the Destruction Domain are Charisma based.

Spell Lv - Greater Spells
  1st    -   Tremor^
  2nd    -   Acid Breath^
  3rd    -   Slime Wave^
  4th    -   Firestorm
  5th    -   Cometfall^
  6th    -   Blood Sirocco^
  7th    -   Tidal Surge^
  8th    -   Bombardment^
  9th    -   Earthquake


Lesser Spells
1st level - Ray of Clumsiness^, Eradicate Earth^, True Strike, Protection from Arrows, Rage, Leomund's Tiny Hut,

2nd level - Miasma of Entropy^, Ray of Stupidity^, Melf's Acid Arrow, Shatter, Dispelling Touch*, 6, 7

3rd level - Giant's Wrath^, Ray of Enfeeblement, Meteoric Strike*, Rust Ray^, Fireball

4th level - Junglerazer^, Touch of Idiocy, Stone Shape, 4

5th level - Evard's Black Tentacles,

6th level - Stone Shape, Ice Storm, Transmute Rock/Mud to Mud/Rock

7th level - Incendiary Cloud,

8th level - Poison, Wrack Earth*

9th level - Disintegrate, Transmute Rock to Lava^[/spoiler]

Pact Domain (In Progress)
[spoiler]Granted Power: Once per encounter, after you or an ally have been dealt damage, with a swift action, you can gain +2 to attack and damage rolls, +2 to AC and saves, +2 to caster level, and +2 to skill and ability checks for 4 rounds. This bonus increases by +1 at 6th level, and every six levels thereafter.

The save DCs of spells available with the Pact Domain are Charisma/Wisdom (?) based.

Spell Lv - Greater Spells
  1st    -   
  2nd    -   
  3rd    -   
  4th    -   Hand of the Faithful^
  5th    -   Heavenly Host/Hellish Horde (Creatures appear 1 round later rather than 10 minutes later...)^
  6th    -   
  7th    -   
  8th    -   
  9th    -   Gate


Lesser Spells
1st - Conviction^, Aid (allies only), Knight's Move (15ft move always)^, Share Talents*, Beastland Ferocity^, Marked Object^, Shocking Grasp, Sanctuary, Shield Other, Mark of the Outcast^

2nd - Divine Protection^, Command, Zone of Truth, Safe Clearing^, Zeal (swift action casting)^, 6, 7

3rd - Quick March^, Weapon of the Deity^, Stay the Hand*, Dimensional Anchor, Contact other Plane

4th - Resurgence^, Black Karma Curse*, Implacable Pursuer^, Call Zelekhut (attacks lawbreakers)^

5th - Revenance^, Blade Brothers*, Suggestion

6th - Zealot Pact^, Friend to Foe*, Call Kolyrut (attacks deal/oath/promise breakers)^

7th - Mass Resurgence^, Hold Monster

8th - Revive Outsider^, Call Marut (attacks undead or creatures that have been killed and brought back from the dead)^

9th - Dominate Monster, Renewal Pact^[/spoiler]

Transmorpher Domain (In Progress)
[spoiler]Granted Power: You gain the Shapeshift alternate class feature presented in Player's Handbook II originally for the Druid class, and all subsequent forms as you gain levels as though your class levels were Druid levels.

The save DCs of spells available through the Transmorpher Domain are Wisdom based.

Spell Lv - Greater Spells
  1st    -   Animalistic Power, Mass*
  2nd    -   
  3rd    -   
  4th    -   
  5th    -   Chasing Perfection, Mass*
  6th    -   
  7th    -   
  8th    -   
  9th    -   Flesh to Stone, Mass


Lesser Spells
1st - Animalistic Power, Astral Mind (+2 Int/Wis/Cha), Weapon Shift^, Greater Magic Weapon, Resist Energy, Darkvision, Stretch Weapon*, Fist of Stone^, Swim, Sharptooth^

2nd - Spider Climb, Dragon Skin^, Dolorous Blow^, Girallon's Blessing^, Spell Vulnerability^, Vulnerability^, Least Dragonshape (Dragon Magic)

3rd - Enlarge Person, Deeper Darkvision^, Evard's Menacing Tentacles*, Tremorsense^, Rust Ray^

4th - Reduce Person, Haste/Slow, Brilliant Blade, Reciprocal Gyre (Dazed for 1 round)^

5th - Chasing Perfection, Fly, Trollshape*

6th - Amorphous Body^, Call of Stone*, Lesser Dragonshape (Dragon Magic)

7th - Gaseous Form, Corporeal Instability^

8th - Giant Size/Minute Form (Complete Arcane), Lord of the Sky (Dragon Magic)

9th - Flesh to Stone, Dragonshape*[/spoiler]

Summoning Domain (In Progress)
[spoiler]Granted Power: Creatures you bind, call, create, or summon gain a +4 bonus to any two ability scores of your choice, a +4 bonus to AC, and a +1 bonus to saving throws. These bonuses increase to +6/+6/+2 at 5th level, +8/+8/+3 at 10th, +10/+10/+4 at 15th, and +12/+12/+5 at 20th.

The save DCs of spells available through the Summoning Domain are Intelligence/Wisdom (?) based.

Spell Lv - Greater Spells
  1st    -   Summon Monster II
  2nd    -   
  3rd    -   Summon Monster V
  4th    -   Banishment
  5th    -   Summon Monster VII
  6th    -   
  7th    -   Summon Monster IX
  8th    -   
  9th    -   Gate


Lesser Spells
1st -

2nd -

3rd -

4th -

5th -

6th -

7th -

8th -

9th - [/spoiler]

Conviction Domain (In Progress)
[spoiler]Granted Power: Choose an alignment you possess when you gain this domain. Good and Evil oppose each other, as do Law and Chaos. You gain the ability to detect your opposition as a Paladin detects evil, and the ability to smite your opposition as a Paladin smites evil, but you gain uses based on character level per encounter rather than per day. You may choose to smite with spells, if you do, you add your Charisma modifier as a bonus to penetrate spell resistance, and the spell deals extra damage (even if it would normally deal no damage) equal to your caster level. Finally, you gain a bonus to AC against your opposition equal to the number of times per encounter you can use your Smite Opposition ability.

The save DCs of spells available through the Conviction Domain are Charisma based.

Spell Lv - Greater Spells
  1st    -   Magic Circle Against Opposition
  2nd    -   Weapon of Faith (You and your allies gain the benefit of Greater Magic Weapon and your weapons gain the Anarchic/Axiomatic/Holy/Unholy property depending on your chosen alignment).
  3rd    -   Aligned Storm (Anarchic Storm/Axiomatic Storm/Holy Storm/Unholy Storm; in the same way that Anarchic Storm unleashes a lightning bolt Holy Storm unleashes a blast of divine flame dealing 5d6 fire damage, and Unholy Storm sends forth a grave chill dealing 5d6 cold damage. The lightning bolt, gout of acid, blast of flame, and grave chill strike any random foe, not just one of opposed alignment)
  4th    -   Cloak of Conviction (Cloak of Chaos/Holy Aura/Shield of Law/Unholy Aura)
  5th    -   Power of Conviction (Holy Word/Blasphemy/Dictum/Word of Chaos)
  6th    -   Summon Monster IX (Cast as a spell of your chosen alignment ONLY)
  7th    -   Castigate (2d6 damage per caster level, maximum 40d6)
  8th    -   Rage of the Outer Planes (As Fire Storm, but dealing fire damage if you chose Good, cold if Evil, acid if Lawful, and electricity if Chaotic. Additionally, you deal double damage to your opposition, and if they fail a fortitude save they are stunned for 1 round)
  9th    -   Final Judgment (As Earthquake, but creatures that share your alignment are unaffected and your opposition takes a -5 penalty to their saving throws)


Lesser Spells
1st -

2nd -

3rd -

4th -

5th -

6th -

7th -

8th -

9th - [/spoiler]

Balance Domain (In Progress)
[spoiler]Granted Power:

[/spoiler]

Knowledge Domain (In Progress)
[spoiler]Granted Power: You gain a bonus to all Knowledge checks equal to 1/2 your caster level +2. Further you gain Knowledge Devotion as a bonus feat. At 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter you gain a bonus skill trick, without needing to spend skill points on it, and without counting against your number of skill tricks by level.

The save DCs of spells available through the Knowledge Domain are Intelligence based.

Lesser Spells
1st -

2nd -

3rd -

4th -

5th -

6th -

7th -

8th -

9th - [/spoiler]

*From Player's Handbook II
^From Spell Compendium
(more spells per level pending, want it to be somewhat comparable to what ToB's get, at least compared with how many domains the casters get)

I dunno, but I think my idea is at least apparent by this point. This is just an example of what I think I'm aiming to do. Magic-Users would gain a number of domains based on the class, and would learn and ready Lesser Spells based on the specific class. What do you think? For the domains I'd like the Lesser Spells to be balanced against ToB type effects in power, relative to their level.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 03:17:06 AM by bkdubs123 »

RobbyPants

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Re: Spells: Retheorizing, Rebalancing, Reorganizing
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2008, 03:18:16 PM »
IDEAS: Spellcasters don't have to just cast spells! They can be meaningful warriors, they can have inexhaustible fonts of magical power (like a Warlock), they can be dedicated skill monkeys, they can do lots of stuff, because regardless they will be effective in combat because of their powerful spell effects. It all depends on the flavor. A Duskblade type character would cast powerful buff spells that would effect the entire party and then wade into combat imbuing his attacks with not-spell-level power, but magical effects nonetheless. A Wizard type character might cast powerful battlefield control spells that hinder enemy movement, or debuff their stats, and then stand back firing magic missiles and delivering single target, short duration, buff/debuffs. A Cleric might smite the entire battlefield, scouring foes with holy fire, while simultaneously buffing his allies. Thoughts on this approach? These ideas mostly make the mechanics of the Warlock class obsolete as I am talking about giving these spellcasters not-quite-spell-level power, but in at-will doses.
You know, the basic concept of this is pretty cool.  You could use the basics of the warlock as a spring board for a lot of the classes.  Have all spells work like invocations in that they're all at-will.  It's up to you if you want to include the ASF for the arcane classes or not.  Just come up with a different set of "invocations" for each class.  So clerics, druids, and wizards would all have access to entirely different spells, but they'd all be at-will, and they'd all be scaled back in power to compensate.

You could probably keep something along the lines of Eldritch Blast for the wizard (as he's the most blasty of the three).  Perhaps a cleric could keep a similar EB progression that's used for healing.  I'm not sure how I'd handle it for the druid.

Regardless, the idea is with a good mix of available spells/invocations, you could turn your caster into a gish, skill monkey, blaster, or whatever.  Take the invocations like Beguiling Influence that grant +6 to three related skills.  If you made a few more of them, it would allow for casters to focus on different skills.  I think you can see some of the ways a system like this could be expanded.


ORGANIZATION: We can achieve the model that spells are game-changers by utilizing the existing spells as written in the PHB and other books, however things will need shifted around, reordered, reorganized. In one of Robby's rebalacing threads somebody mentioned limiting Clerics spell lists by forcing them to choose a few domains and allowing them only to cast spells from those domains (with a small universal list for everybody). I think this sort of thing is a fantastic idea, and one that can be applied to Wizards as well. No more need for specialist wizards, or Warmages, or Beguilers. Split arcane spells into domains with domain powers. Allow Wizards/Clerics to pick up 2 or 3 domains at first level and to gain more as they gain levels, but ALSO, give them the option of eschewing domains and domain powers in order to access spells from any domain, but at a slower pace. Giving up the domain powers and lowering the rate at which they get more powerful spells should balance this out.
I suggested the idea, and I've been working on it a bit.  Of course, trying to create an entire new set of spell lists is time consuming, so all I've posted so far is the basic concept.

I think this could be extended to wizards to allow generalists, it's just a bit of work.  The idea would be to either:

1) Drastically expand the Universal school, and give generalists access to this.  You would only allow a generalist a small amout of spells from the other eight schools.

2) Keep the schools the way they are, but modify the Sorcerer/Wizard list to bump some of the more key spells up a spell level or two.  This way, they still get access to everything, but they have to wait a while to get anything more powerful.  They still have all their versatility, but compared to any one specialized caster, they will be behind in that school.  So, a specialized Transmuter will pick up things like Alter Self, Polymorph, and Shapechange before a generalist wizard would.  Weaker spells (perhaps Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength, etc) would still be picked up at their normal levels.  This gives gernalists the same look-and-feel, but puts them behind in power from someone who specializes, rather than penalizing specialization the way the current system does.  This is the approach I want to eventually take in my re-work (again, re-doing spell lists takes a lot of time!).
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: Spells: Retheorizing, Rebalancing, Reorganizing
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2008, 04:35:08 PM »
So what do you think of the Domain presented above? Basically the idea that has taken vague shape in my head is that there will be a Warrior-Mage class, a Magic-User class, and a Skill-Mage class (better names to be assigned later, lol). The Magic-User will get the most domains (if they choose), and each class will learn and ready a different number of invocations from those granted by their domains, in a way close to how ToB does maneuvers. These "Spellcasters" can only ever cast 1 spell per encounter, but these spells have a huge impact on the entire encounter. Invocations are shorter duration and round-by-round single target spellpower. Right now I'm thinking to not make any real distinction between divine or arcane magic, and in fact allowing characters to mix and match between them as they see fit. This is going to change how my Champion and Journeyman work, but actually not drastically, and I really think I like where I'm going with this.

Say you're playing a 1st level Warrior-Mage. You get to choose 2 domains, and you've chosen the Battleblessing and Energy Blast domains. Each encounter you'd have the choice to cast either Magic Circle or Energy Ball (fireball of the energy type of your choice), and at-will you could "invoke" things like Protection from Energy, True Strike, Enlarge Person, Shocking Grasp, Melf's Acid Arrow, etc. Additionally you will have full BAB, probably Invocation Channeling, and decent armor proficiencies.

RobbyPants

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Re: Spells: Retheorizing, Rebalancing, Reorganizing
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2008, 04:55:40 PM »
The idea looks like it has some merit.  I might need to see more domains before I can really give any advice.

So, to make sure I understand it: you get one spell per encounter.  As your level increases, you have access to more spells (increased versatility), but still only one spell.  In addition, you have invocations (lesser spells) that you can use at will?

Assuming I understand it okay, I think you could make something like that work.  It depends on how many domains a caster gets.  I'd like to see them having access to several spells per level.  Also, I think you can get away with more than one spell per encounter at higher levels, if you limit it to a lower level spell. 

Maybe your caster level is even considered lower for that second spell in the encounter.  Just an example (pulling numbers out of my ass): When you're able to cast the 4th level spell (7th level), you can get a 2nd spell per encounter.  This spell must be at least three levels lower than the level of your highest level spell (so 1st level at this point) and your caster level is six lower (so 1 at this point).  So, at 9th level, you could get an extra 1st or 2nd level spell per encounter at CL 3. 

Maybe you could work up to a 3rd extra spell per encounter at 13th level (7th level spells).  This spell would be six levels lower than your max, and would be cast at 12 caster levels lower.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: Spells: Retheorizing, Rebalancing, Reorganizing
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2008, 05:06:37 PM »
So, to make sure I understand it: you get one spell per encounter.  As your level increases, you have access to more spells (increased versatility), but still only one spell.  In addition, you have invocations (lesser spells) that you can use at will?

Yes. One spell per encounter, basically ever, along with your "lesser spells" at will.

Quote
Assuming I understand it okay, I think you could make something like that work.  It depends on how many domains a caster gets.  I'd like to see them having access to several spells per level.  Also, I think you can get away with more than one spell per encounter at higher levels, if you limit it to a lower level spell.

I hadn't yet thought of that, but as this idea is brand spankin' new that's to be expected. This could be okay, more than likely.

Quote
Maybe your caster level is even considered lower for that second spell in the encounter.  Just an example (pulling numbers out of my ass): When you're able to cast the 4th level spell (7th level), you can get a 2nd spell per encounter.  This spell must be at least three levels lower than the level of your highest level spell (so 1st level at this point) and your caster level is six lower (so 1 at this point).  So, at 9th level, you could get an extra 1st or 2nd level spell per encounter at CL 3. 

Maybe you could work up to a 3rd extra spell per encounter at 13th level (7th level spells).  This spell would be six levels lower than your max, and would be cast at 12 caster levels lower.

The idea might work, but I think I would allow full or half caster level (one or the other, just for simplicity). It would obviously have to be playtested. Okay, so I guess it's time to get to work on domains! And again, to reiterate my original post: any help I can get in finding which spells aren't quite powerful enough to effect the scope of an entire encounter but are still useful (Mage Armor, Detect Thoughts, Hold Person) and set them aside for work to fit as Domain Invocations I would GREATLY appreciate.

RobbyPants

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Re: Spells: Retheorizing, Rebalancing, Reorganizing
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2008, 05:12:57 PM »
And again, to reiterate my original post: any help I can get in finding which spells aren't quite powerful enough to effect the scope of an entire encounter but are still useful (Mage Armor, Detect Thoughts, Hold Person) and set them aside for work to fit as Domain Invocations I would GREATLY appreciate.
I'll see what I can do.

It looks like you want to dole out more powerful invocations every odd level too.  Is that correct?
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: Spells: Retheorizing, Rebalancing, Reorganizing
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2008, 05:27:41 PM »
At first, I started compiling a list of Invocations, but it might be easier to make a list of things that are too good to be invocations.  I'll start there.

This is a quickly compiled list.  Some of the spells could be moved up or down a bit perhaps, as the dynamic of casting is changing in this system.

1st level
Grease
Summon Monster I
True Strike (seems too crappy to be a domain spell, but too good for an invocation.  Maybe tone it down a bit as in invocation?)
Charm Person
Hypnotism (more for avoiding combat.  Not sure how to handle it)
Sleep
Color Spray
Silent Image
Cause Fear
Reduce Person (I'm not sure this one belongs here)

3rd level
Glitterdust
Summon Monster II
Web
Hideous Laughter
Touch of Idiocy (depends on what you're fighting)
Minor Image
Blindness/Deafness (not as bad as Glitterdust, though)
Scare (maybe.  An upgrade of Cause Fear, but at 3rd level, it isn't so good)
Alter Self

5th level
Dispel Magic (I'm not sure about this one)
Stinking Cloud
Summon Monster III
Deep Slumber (at this level, not as good as Sleep is at 1st)
Hold Person
Suggestion
Major Image
Ray of Exhaustion (perhaps as a spell at 3rd level, or an invocation at 5th or 7th level)
Haste
Magic Weapon, Greater (maybe)
Slow
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: Spells: Retheorizing, Rebalancing, Reorganizing
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2008, 05:33:49 PM »
Very helpful, thank you Robby, though I do want to point out, that pretty much any spell that only a effects a single creature or object will basically never make it as a spell. Regardless of how powerful it is, it will pretty much always be an invocation (unless it's just too powerful, and then it will just not be anything). I'm looking to keep invocations roughly on par with ToB strikes, boosts, and stances which actually seems like it will be surprisingly easy so long as we shift things around enough. Daze Monster then with my above requirements is an invocation, but since ToB doesn't give out dazing until 5th level strikes, Daze Monster can't be given out until 9th character level. From there all you have to say is that there's no HD limit, and we're golden.

RobbyPants

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Re: Spells: Retheorizing, Rebalancing, Reorganizing
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2008, 05:46:27 PM »
Single targets make sense to a point.  You could always change the level it's granted at to compensate as well.

How are you handling Save or Dies?  There are plenty of single-target SoDs out there?
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: Spells: Retheorizing, Rebalancing, Reorganizing
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2008, 05:49:19 PM »
How are you handling Save or Dies?  There are plenty of single-target SoDs out there?

Well, if I go with the ToB model, ToB hands out save-or-dies at 9th level, so Finger of Death, or Slay Living seem like they'd make perfect sense as 17th level invocations.

RobbyPants

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Re: Spells: Retheorizing, Rebalancing, Reorganizing
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2008, 05:52:31 PM »
Fair enough.

If I find time, I might come up with a list of more spells, given the new guidelines you've posted.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: Spells: Retheorizing, Rebalancing, Reorganizing
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2008, 06:19:09 PM »
Domain ideas:

[spoiler]Battleblessing*
Summoner*
Oracle*
Enchanter*
Evoker*
Illusionist*
Necromancer*
Transmorpher*

Earth
Wind
Fire
Water

Nature*
Chaos
Evil
Good
Law
Balance

Darkness
Death
Destruction
Healing
Knowledge*
Luck
Light
Travel*
Trickery

Celerity
Courage
Conquest
Madness
Mentalism
Pact
Pestilence
Planning
Purification
Renewal
Retribution
Time*

Of course not all of the above will make sense, and probably some will become redundant. I'd like there not to be an overabundance of options compared to the Tome of Battle guys either. I already have 14 disciplines with The Warrior's Way, but I'd probably be able to allow up to 20-30 even with the large amount of homebrew all across the forums. So somewhere between 20 and 30 domains is a good place to be. Those marked with an asterisk are domains I definitely do want to see designed for this system, and if anyone has preferences that they'd like to see like them be known![/spoiler]

Confirmed Domains: (These might actually be the final domains, they seem pretty exhaustive in concepts, though more ideas are certainly welcome) Aligned, Balance, Battleblessing, Celerity, Courage, Destruction, Enchanter, Evoker, Healing, Illusionist, Knowledge, Light*, Luck, Nature, Necromancer, Oracle, Pact, Planning, Purification, Renewal, Retribution, Time, Transmorpher, Travel

*The Light domain is about the manipulation of light. You can use this domain for things like Daylight or for things like Deeper Darkness if you want, by manipulating light as you see fit.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 06:39:08 PM by bkdubs123 »

RobbyPants

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Re: Spells: Retheorizing, Rebalancing, Reorganizing
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2008, 06:39:36 PM »
Maybe you already said, but how many domains does a caster get?
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
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When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
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Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: Spells: Retheorizing, Rebalancing, Reorganizing
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2008, 06:48:51 PM »
Maybe you already said, but how many domains does a caster get?

I haven't said yet, because it's kind of still up in the air. Crusaders under Warrior's Way have access to five disciplines (probably able to be raised to 7ish with outside homebrew material), Swordsages have access to nine disciplines (raised up to likely 15ish with outside homebrew material), and Warblades have access to six disciplines (raised to 8ish with outside homebrew). So what 'm kinda thinking is to start a "dedicated spellcaster" off with 4 domains and have them pick up about 4 more as they gain levels; and start the warrior-mage, and skill-mage off with 2 domains and have them pick up maybe 3 more as they gain levels.

Prime32

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Re: Spells: Retheorizing, Rebalancing, Reorganizing
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2008, 07:09:38 PM »
I've been watching Fate/stay night, and something about "one dramatic spell per encounter which completely changes the battlefield" reminds me of... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZBAEk_Ugmk


EDIT: Unlimited Blade Works constructs a demiplane around Archer and his opponent from his own soul with laws of physics that aid him and hinder his enemies, and fills it with every bladed weapon which has ever existed (including artefacts) at 90% of their original power. In addition, each weapon grants Archer the combat abilities of its original wielder. He can also throw the weapons telekinetically.

Berserker doesn't permanently die unless killed twelve times, but no character had been even able to scratch him so far. Unlimited Blade Works killed him five times.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 05:09:48 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: Spells: Retheorizing, Rebalancing, Reorganizing
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2008, 08:05:09 PM »
I've been watching Fate/stay night, and something about "one dramatic spell per encounter which completely changes the battlefield" reminds me of... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZBAEk_Ugmk

Well, that Archer fellow seemed a lot more like a ToB guy with a few limited Invocations. His one big spell did little other than grant him a lot of weapons (were they even magical? I dunno...). Now, if all of those weapons had released from the ground as he charged Berserker and were all fighting with him, then we'd have what would likely be a very high level spell.

Anyway, I've come up with the three classes I will be using with the system. Here they are, let me know what you think.

The Magic-User (Cleric/Druid/Wizard)
(The name will be changed when I come up something better)

[spoiler]HD: d6

Saves: Good Will, Poor Others

LV  Base Attack     Class Features               Lessers Known  Lessers Ready
1.   +0             Domains (3), Spellgrace +1         7              4
2.   +1             Bonus Domain                       7              4
3.   +1             Magicsense                         8              5
4.   +2             Spellgrace +2                      9              5
5.   +2             Bonus Domain                       9              6
6.   +3                                                10             6
7.   +3             Extra Spell (1, 1st)               11             6
8.   +4             Spellgrace +3                      12             7
9.   +4                                                13             7
10.  +5             Bonus Domain                       14             8
11.  +5                                                15             8
12.  +6/+1          Spellgrace +4                      16             8
13.  +6/+1          Extra spell (2, 2nd)               17             9
14.  +7/+2                                             18             9
15.  +7/+2          Bonus Domain                       19             10
16.  +8/+3          Spellgrace +5                      20             10
17.  +8/+3          Spellgrace Aura                    21             10
18.  +9/+4                                             22             11
19.  +9/+4          Extra spell (3, 3rd)               23             11
20.  +10/+5         Bonus Domain, Doublecast           24             12


Class Skills (4+Int modifier): Appraise, Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disguise, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (all), Listen, Profession, Spellcraft, Spot, Use Magic Device

Proficiencies: All simple weapons, light armor, no shields.

Spellcasting (Ex): Magic-Users cast spells (greater and lesser) drawn from the lists of their chosen domains. They can only cast a single Greater Spell per encounter at first level but gain the ability to cast additional Greater Spells as they gain levels. At 7th level a Magic-User can cast one extra 1st level Greater Spell each encounter. At 13th level a Magic-User can cast two extra Greater Spells each encounter of up to 2nd level. At 19th level a Magic-User can cast up to three extra Greater Spells each encounter of up to 3rd level. These spells last until the end of the encounter during which they were cast.

Magic-Users begin play knowing 7 Lesser Spells, and must ready them in a manner similar to how a Warblade readies it's martial maneuvers, able to ready 4 of them at a time at 1st level. As a Magic-User gains levels it learns and is able to ready more and more Lesser Spells, as indicated on the table above. Magic-Users, as with all spellcasters, cast their Lesser Spells at-will. These spells last no longer than 4 rounds, and have a maximum range of 100ft.

The saving throw DC of these spells is 10+1/2 Magic-User level+the ability score modifier designated by the domain** (+2 for Greater Spells). Unlike the standard spellcasting system of Wizards or Clerics, Magic-Users can not gain bonus spells per encounter for having a high ability score. A Magic-User's Caster Level is equal to his class level. Greater Spells with durations last only until the end of the encounter in which they are cast. Lesser Spells with durations last only 5 rounds.

**Most Domains will be either Wisdom or Charisma based. In order to be a SAD Intelligence based caster you will have to choose your domains very carefully, and ignore many others that might be useful.

Domains (Sp): At first level Magic-Users choose any three domains and gain the benefit of all three of the chosen domains' Granted Powers. These chosen domains give the Magic-User access to three Greater Spells, of which the Magic-User can cast one per encounter (or more depending on his level), and a wide variety of Lesser Spells which can be cast at-will. At 2nd level, 5th level, and every five levels thereafter, a Magic-User gains a bonus domain, giving him an extra Granted Power, and access to further Greater and Lesser spells.

Whenever any spellcaster gains a new domain he or she may choose to lose any Lesser Spell she knows to learn another Lesser Spell of any level available to her to cast, from any domain she possesses in its place.

Spellgrace (Ex): Magic-Users' mastery of magical power gives them great insight into how best to defend themselves against it. They gain a +1 bonus to AC and saves against spells and spell-like abilities. This bonus improves by +1 at 4th level, and every four levels after that to a maximum of +5 at 16th level.

At 4th level and beyond a Magic-User grants 1/2 this bonus (rounded up) to adjacent allies. At 12th level and beyond a Magic-User grants 1/2 this bonus to allies within 10ft.

Magicsense (Su): At 3rd level, Magic-Users develop an innate sixth-sense for perceiving magical effects. They can use Detect Magic (PHB 219) at-will, and gain the Sense Magic ability (as Swordsage, ToB 16).

Spellgrace Aura: At 17th level and beyond, a Magic-User grants the full benefit of his Spellgrace feature to all allies within 15ft.

Doublecast (Ex): At 20th level, Magic-Users develop a prodigious talent. With a single standard action a Magic-User can cast two Greater or Lesser Spells at once, or a combination of the two. If casting two Greater Spells at once, a Magic-User is stunned after his turn and until the end of his next turn. If casting two Lesser Spells at once, a Magic-User loses his standard action during his next turn. If casting a Greater Spell with a Lesser Spell, a Magic-User's speed is reduced by 1/2 and he becomes flat-footed after his turn and until the end of his next turn, and he loses his standard action during his next turn.[/spoiler]

The Warrior-Mage (Duskblade/More Spellcastery Paladin)
(Again, will have a better name later)

[spoiler]HD: d10

Saves: Good Will, One Good other, last poor

LV  Base Atk Bonus    Class Features                                      Lessers Known  Lessers Ready
1.   +1               Domains (2), Channel Lesser Spell                         4              3
2.   +2               Spellgrace +1                                             4              3
3.   +3               Battlecaster Tactics                                      5              3
4.   +4               Stunted Casting (Revoked)                                 5              3
5.   +5               Spellgrace +2                                             6              4
6.   +6/+1            Bonus Domain                                              6              4
7.   +7/+2            Quick Spell 1/day (Lesser)                                6              4
8.   +8/+3                                                                      7              4
9.   +9/+4            Spellgrace +3                                             7              4
10.  +10/+5           Extra Spell (1, 1st)                                      7              5
11.  +11/+6/+1                                                                  8              5
12.  +12/+7/+2        Bonus Domain                                              8              5
13.  +13/+8/+3        Spellgrace +4                                             8              5
14.  +14/+9/+4                                                                  9              5
15.  +15/+10/+5       Quick Spell 2/day (Lesser)                                9              6
16.  +16/+11/+6/+1                                                              9              6
17.  +17/+12/+7/+2    Spellgrace +5                                             10             6
18.  +18/+13/+8/+3    Bonus Domain                                              10             6
19.  +19/+14/+9/+4                                                              11             6
20.  +20/+15/+10/+5   Extra Spell (2, 2nd), Quick Spell 1/day (Greater)         11             7


Class Skills (4+Int per level): Balance, Concentration, Climb, Craft, Escape Artist, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (all), Listen, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim, Tumble

Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor, light and heavy shields (not Tower Shields).

Spellcasting (Ex): Warrior-Mages cast spells (greater and lesser) drawn from the lists of their chosen domains. They can only cast a single Greater Spell per encounter at first level but gain the ability to cast additional Greater Spells as they gain levels. At 10th level a Warrior-Mage can cast one extra 1st level Greater Spell each encounter. At 20th level a Warrior-Mage can cast two extra Greater Spells each encounter of up to 2nd level.

Warrior-Mages begin play knowing 3 Lesser Spells, and must ready them in a manner similar to how a Warblade readies it's martial maneuvers, able to ready 2 of them at a time at 1st level. As a Warrior-Mage gains levels it learns and is able to ready more and more Lesser Spells, as indicated on the table above. Warrior-Mages, as with all spellcasters, cast their Lesser Spells at-will. These spells last no longer than 4 rounds, and have a maximum range of 100ft.

The saving throw DC of these spells is 10+1/2 Warrior-Mage level+the ability score modifier designated by the domain (+1 for Greater Spells). Unlike the standard spellcasting system of Wizards or Clerics, Warrior-Mages can not gain bonus spells per encounter for having a high ability score. Warrior-Mages ignore all "arcane spell failure" of armor, because magic is neither divine or arcane. A Warrior-Mage's Caster level for Lesser Spells is equal to his class level, for Greater Spells it is equal to his class level-3.

Stunted Casting - Warrior Mages are unable to cast the Greater Spells of their domains until 4th level and higher.

Domains (Sp): At first level Warrior-Mages choose any two domains and gain the benefit of both of the chosen domains' Granted Powers. These chosen domains give the Warrior-Mage access to two Greater Spells, of which the Warrior-Mage can cast one per encounter, and a wide variety of Lesser Spells which can be cast at-will. At 6th level, and every six levels thereafter, a Warrior-Mage gains a bonus domain, giving him an extra Granted Power, and access to further Greater and Lesser spells.

Whenever any spellcaster gains a new domain he or she may choose to lose any Lesser Spell she knows to learn another Lesser Spell of any level available to her to cast, from any domain she possesses in its place.

Channel Lesser Spell (Ex): Whenever a Warrior-Mage makes an attack as a standard action, or as part of a charge or full attack action and that attack hits, he may also cast a single Lesser Spell he has ready targeting, or centered on, the struck foe as a free action. If the spell has a range of touch or ranged touch you do not have to roll to hit the target, you hit automatically. If this is done as part of a full attack action, he must channel the same spell for each attack that hits, he may not cast multiple different Lesser Spells.

Spellgrace (Su): Warrior-Mages' mastery of magical power gives them great insight into how best to defend themselves against it. At 2nd level They gain a +1 bonus to AC and saves against spells and spell-like abilities. This bonus improves by +1 at 5th level, and every four levels after that to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. Unlike Magic-Users, Warrior-Mages do not grant any bonus to allies with this ability.

Battlecaster Tactics (Su): During any round in which a 3rd level or higher Warrior-Mage casts a spell, if he hit any enemy with a weapon attack in the last round his Caster Level and the save DC of the spell cast are both increased by +1. Likewise during any round in which a Warrior-Mage makes a weapon attack, if an enemy failed its saving throw against a spell he cast in the previous round that attack gains a +2 bonus to the attack roll and deals +2 damage. These bonuses increase by +1 at 8th level and again every six levels thereafter (max +4/+5 at 20th level).

Quick Spell (Ex): At 7th level, a Warrior-Mage has developed a method for quickly casting his Lesser Spells so that he can more effectively wield his weapons in combat. Once per day, he can cast a single Lesser Spell as a swift action rather than a standard action. He gains an extra daily use of this ability at 15th level.

At 20th level he refines his technique so that he can cast even Greater Spells faster than normal. In addition to the two Lesser Spells he can cast per day as swift actions, a 20th level Warrior-Mage can cast a single Greater Spell once per day as a swift action.[/spoiler]

The Skill-Mage (Bard/Beguiler/Sneaky Warmage)
(Again, again, better name comes later)

[spoiler]HD: d8

Saves: Good Will, One other Good, last Poor

Lv  Base Attack    Special                                          Lessers Known  Lessers Ready
1.  +0             Domains (2), Trapfinding, Cloaked Casting (+1)         4              3
2.  +1             Deft Spellgrace +1                                     4              3
3.  +2             Element of Surprise                                    5              3
4.  +3             Stunted Casting (Revoked)                              5              3
5.  +3             Deft Spellgrace +2                                     6              4
6.  +4             Bonus Domain                                           6              4
7.  +5             Cloaked Casting (Swift Action)                         6              4
8.  +6/+1          Disguised Spells                                       7              4
9.  +6/+1          Deft Spellgrace +3                                     7              4
10. +7/+2          Extra Spell (1, 1st)                                   7              5
11. +8/+3          Skill Mastery                                          8              5
12. +9/+4          Bonus Domain                                           8              5
13. +9/+4          Deft Spellgrace +4                                     8              5
14. +10/+5         Cloaked Casting (Overcomes SR)                         9              5
15. +11/+6/+1      Eschew Components                                      9              6
16. +12/+7/+2      Spell Opportunist                                      9              6
17. +12/+7/+2      Deft Spellgrace +5                                     10             6
18. +13/+8/+3      Bonus Domain                                           10             6
19. +14/+9/+4      Cloaked Casting (+2)                                   11             6
20. +15/+10/+5     Extra Spell (2, 2nd), Invisible Spells                 11             7


Class Skills (6+Int per level): Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (all), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope

Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons, light armors, light shields.

Spellcasting (Ex): Skill-Mages cast spells (greater and lesser) drawn from the lists of their chosen domains. They can only cast a single Greater Spell per encounter at first level but gain the ability to cast additional Greater Spells as they gain levels. At 10th level a Skill-Mage can cast one extra 1st level Greater Spell each encounter. At 20th level a Skill-Mage can cast two extra Greater Spells each encounter of up to 2nd level.

Skill-Mages begin play knowing 3 Lesser Spells, and must ready them in a manner similar to how a Warblade readies it's martial maneuvers, able to ready 2 of them at a time at 1st level. As a Skill-Mage gains levels it learns and is able to ready more and more Lesser Spells, as indicated on the table above. Skill-Mages, as with all spellcasters, cast their Lesser Spells at-will. These spells last no longer than 4 rounds, and have a maximum range of 100ft.

The saving throw DC of these spells is 10+1/2 Skill-Mage level+the ability score modifier designated by the domain (+1 for Greater Spells). Unlike the standard spellcasting system of Wizards or Clerics, Skill-Mages can not gain bonus spells per encounter for having a high ability score. Skill-Mages ignore all "arcane spell failure" of armor, because magic is neither divine or arcane. A Skill-Mage's Caster level for Lesser Spells is equal to his class level, for Greater Spells it is equal to his class level-3.

Stunted Casting - Skill-Mages are unable to cast the Greater Spells of their domains until 4th level and higher.

Domains (Sp): At first level Skill-Mages choose any two domains and gain the benefit of both of the chosen domains' Granted Powers. These chosen domains give the Skill-Mage access to two Greater Spells, of which the Skill-Mage can cast one per encounter, and a wide variety of Lesser Spells which can be cast at-will. At 6th level, and every six levels thereafter, a Skill-Mage gains a bonus domain, giving him an extra Granted Power, and access to further Greater and Lesser spells.

Whenever any spellcaster gains a new domain he or she may choose to lose any Lesser Spell she knows to learn another Lesser Spell of any level available to her to cast, from any domain she possesses in its place.

Trapfinding (Ex): Skill-Mages can use the Search skill to locate traps when the DC is higher than 20, and can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magical traps. A Skill-Mage who beats a trap's disarm DC by 10 with a Disable Device check has studied the device to such a degree that he can bypass the trap without disarming.

Cloaked Casting (Ex): Skill-Mages are stealthy and deceptive spellcasters. You may feint as as move action, further, whenever you cast a spell on a foe who is denied his dexterity bonus to AC add +1 to the save DC against that spell. This ability improves as you level. At 7th level you can feint as a swift action. At 14th level any spell you cast on a foe who is denied its dexterity bonus to AC automatically overcomes that foe's spell resistance. At 19th level the bonus to DC increases to +2.

Deft Spellgrace (Su): Skill-Mages' mastery of magical power gives them great insight into how best to defend themselves against it, and bolsters her powers of stealth. At 2nd level They gain a +1 bonus to AC and saves against spells and spell-like abilities. This bonus improves by +1 at 5th level, and every four levels after that to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. Unlike Magic-Users, Skill-Mages do not grant any bonus to allies with this ability. In addition to this bonus shared by Magic-Users and Warrior-Mages, Skill-Mages also add double this bonus to their Hide and Move Silently skills.

Element of Surprise (Ex): At 3rd level Skill-Mages begin to take advantage of others' sluggishness. You gain a +2 bonus to initiative, which stacks with any other bonuses you have to initiative, and during a surprise round you may take an extra standard or move action.

Disguised Spells (Ex): Beginning at 8th level, Skill-Mages can cleverly disguise the casting of their spells hiding the components, be they gestures, words, or materials, amongst other things of like origin (Weaving magical words of power expertly into a normal turn of phrase, working magical gestures into body language, or placing material components amongst things of similar size, shape, color, etc, so forth). Whenever you cast a spell you may make a Bluff check as part of the action, opposed by any nearby creatures' Sense Motive check. Creatures that do not meet or exceed your Bluff can't tell that you are casting a spell, and thus may be surprised when you do.

Skill Mastery (Ex): At 11th level, a Skill-Mage becomes so certain of her skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse, or stressful conditions. Choose any 4 skills you have at least 1 rank in. When making a skill check with the chosen skills you can take a 10 even if stress and/or distractions would normally prevent you from doing so.

Eschew Components (Su): Beginning at 15th level, Skill-Mages no longer need to worry about the components of spells they cast, and as such, since the Skill-Mage no longer needs to speak, gesture, or use materials, it is impossible to tell when she casts a spell, until it is too late. When attempting to cast a Greater Spell in this way, the Skill-Mage must make a Will saving throw against the spell, without the benefit of her Deft Spellgrace feature. If she fails, she is forced, by intangible, unknowable forces, to use any material components necessary.

Spell Opportunist (Ex): Whenever a creature provokes an attack of opportunity from you, you may cast any Lesser Spell you know with a range of touch or ranged touch targeting that creature, instead of taking your attack of opportunity.

Invisible Spells (Su): Beginning at 20th level, Skill-Mages develop the wondrous ability to cast spells which have completely invisible effects. This combined with their Eschew Components ability can create much confusion and panic, while all the while no one will ever know that the Skill-Mage has done anything at all. When attempting to cast a Greater Spell in this way there is a 50% chance that the spell will be cast normally, as visible as ever.[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 07:34:31 AM by bkdubs123 »

SiggyDevil

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Re: Spells: Retheorizing, Rebalancing, Reorganizing
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2008, 11:44:55 PM »
Answer to dilemma:
Everyone has access to spells whether they like it or not, which is a tough part since there are indeed players that want to get by without magic at all (or just items made by spellcasters).
There are far too many players insisting on LOTR style "I run around with a sword and bow" in worlds of far too frequent dragons, demons, angels, and whatever else magic-using monsters.
D&D is NOT LOTR so this just doesn't work.
You need magic in a magical setting.


• Some would know more than others thanks to encountering more spells (learned as by Wizard, added to 'class list') while others (or same characters) may use more spells in any given moment (readied).
• Highest spell level would be the same for everyone; +1 for every odd level starting at 0.



bkdubs123

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Re: Spells: Retheorizing, Rebalancing, Reorganizing
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2008, 12:38:21 AM »
Answer to dilemma:

Wait. Who said anything about a dilemma?

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Everyone has access to spells whether they like it or not, which is a tough part since there are indeed players that want to get by without magic at all (or just items made by spellcasters).

Right. I don't want everyone to have to use magic in my games, and when I play a character, I usually prefer one that doesn't use magic. Which, in turn, makes me really not want to make people cast magic. Which, again, is why I'm rebalancing magic more along the power level of Tome of Battle characters.

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There are far too many players insisting on LOTR style "I run around with a sword and bow" in worlds of far too frequent dragons, demons, angels, and whatever else magic-using monsters.

My goal is to make it perfectly possible to defeat Dragons, Demons, Angels, etc, with a sword and bow alone. ToB is leaps and strides in the right direction.

Quote
D&D is NOT LOTR so this just doesn't work.
You need magic in a magical setting.

Again, part of my goal. If I play my cards right, by the end of it all, you won't need magic in a magical setting.

Quote
• Some would know more than others thanks to encountering more spells (learned as by Wizard, added to 'class list') while others (or same characters) may use more spells in any given moment (readied).
• Highest spell level would be the same for everyone; +1 for every odd level starting at 0.

Just not my cup of tea, but within my system all characters gain ToB like multiclassing. Warlords and Sohei use 1/2 other class levels to determine the Tier and number of their Combat Feats, Journeymen do it for their amount and the regeneration of their Inspiration, and finally Magic-Users, Warrior-Mages, and Skill-Mages will all do it to determine their Domain access, their caster level, their Lesser Spells known and readied, and for maybe some other minor details.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 12:43:13 AM by bkdubs123 »

SiggyDevil

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Re: Spells: Retheorizing, Rebalancing, Reorganizing
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2008, 03:55:37 AM »
Wait. Who said anything about a dilemma?

I did. It's a dilemma that too many players actively resist playing anything close to a spellcaster because they "want to play a warrior", which in their definition is non-spellcaster.
Anything even similar to what you have is too anime for D&D traditionalists. Perhaps that's why WOTC abandoned that demographic in favor of the animu fans.