Author Topic: [3.5]Knight - What?! A Knight Fix?!  (Read 23457 times)

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Kuroimaken

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Re: [3.5]Knight - What?! A Knight Fix?!
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2008, 06:39:36 PM »
You might want to rewrite the Shield bonus DR ability. Otherwise you'll end up with Knights using +5 Tower Shields with +5 Defending Spikes for DR 10/-.

Quote
In addition, a Knight gains DR/- while he weilds a shield. The DR gained is equal to bonus provided to his Armor Class by his shield.

This means a +5 Tower Shield would grant what... DR 9? With the spikes (which are still technically part of the shield, mind you), we're talking DR 14/- as low as level 8. Granted this guy is supposed to be a tank, but that's still a little on the strong side, unless that's what you were going for.
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AfterCrescent

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Re: [3.5]Knight - What?! A Knight Fix?!
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2008, 07:01:39 PM »
Well let's see, there's a couple problems with that.

A) yes, a +5 tower shield would grant DR 9/-, but you also lose the ability to shield bash with it, since you can't shield bash with a tower shield.

B) You're focusing so much on AC/DR that you lose out on offense. (-2 to attacks when holding a tower shield).

C) Can you afford 25,000+gp (the +5 shield and) and another 72,000+gp (the +5 defending spikes) at level 8? I'm afb, but I think 97,000gp is above the WBL at 8. ;)

D) The +5 defending spikes are not part of the shield bonus to AC, they're an unnamed bonus. So no, that won't work anyways.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: [3.5]Knight - What?! A Knight Fix?!
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2008, 08:48:58 PM »
I'm just sayin' it can be abused, is all. By level 20, this guy will have DR 16/-. Not shabby at all, methinks.


Quote
D) The +5 defending spikes are not part of the shield bonus to AC, they're an unnamed bonus. So no, that won't work anyways.

Hmmm, good point. I missed that bit.
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Re: [3.5]Knight - What?! A Knight Fix?!
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2008, 08:54:24 PM »
I really don't think DR 16/- at 20 is abusive at all. ;)
I think it's right where a Knight should be.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: [3.5]Knight - What?! A Knight Fix?!
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2008, 01:18:44 AM »
Quote
I really don't think DR 16/- at 20 is abusive at all.
I think it's right where a Knight should be.

In that case, lead on! It's your rewrite, dude.  :P
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SiggyDevil

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Re: [3.5]Knight - What?! A Knight Fix?!
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2008, 04:43:45 AM »
I really don't think DR 16/- at 20 is abusive at all. ;)
I think it's right where a Knight should be.

Too low to count. Needs more DR as well as a chance to resist both common and exotic energies, perhaps even all damage entirely.

I'm thinking more like DR 40 against ALL damage by Knight 20, stacking up from 2 per level. Revel in that tanker role.

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Re: [3.5]Knight - What?! A Knight Fix?!
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2008, 04:46:34 AM »
 :eh
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Midnight_v

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Re: [3.5]Knight - What?! A Knight Fix?!
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2009, 12:23:34 PM »
:eh
Damn felled by shennigans.

I don't like the fear beyond fear thing you have set up. Frigthful prescence that no one is immune to? Hmm... not so much. The base idea of this fix is pretty good minus a few things.
I can even see the frenzied berseker deathless frenzy on it or that strange crusader stance they have to take as a feat. I get what your shooting for. You mind if I uhmm.. take a whack at cleaning some of that up a bit?
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Re: [3.5]Knight - What?! A Knight Fix?!
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2009, 11:19:53 PM »
I don't like the fear beyond fear thing you have set up. Frigthful prescence that no one is immune to? Hmm... not so much.
Really? Why? It's exactly... EXACTLY like a dragon's frightful presence. Ever read a dragon's ability? Why can't a knight be just as impressive as a dragon? I think they can/should be.

Quote
The base idea of this fix is pretty good minus a few things.
Like?

Quote
You mind if I uhmm.. take a whack at cleaning some of that up a bit?
Of course. I'm always up for feedback. :)
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Midnight_v

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Re: [3.5]Knight - What?! A Knight Fix?!
« Reply #49 on: July 13, 2009, 12:38:11 AM »
Quote
Daunting Prescence (Ex): A Knight gains Frightful Presence (as a true dragon's ability). This is not a fear effect. This is not a mind-affecting effect. A Knight is immune to the Daunting Presence of another Knight of his Knight level or lower.

according to the srd frighful prescence is a fear affect.
Its listed under "Fear" on the special abilities page. So basically I'd let it be dragon fear, but not better than.

You don't scare the lich king. No one does.

(except maybe those witches)
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Re: [3.5]Knight - What?! A Knight Fix?!
« Reply #50 on: July 13, 2009, 12:47:21 AM »
When I look up dragons I see:
Quote from: SRD
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Midnight_v

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Re: [3.5]Knight - What?! A Knight Fix?!
« Reply #51 on: July 13, 2009, 12:13:51 PM »
 ???

Okay well ...

here's the link: Special abilities page

Quote from:  From the Srd
Frightful Presence (Ex)


EDIT: Further AC... it causes the panicked condition which is the 3rd fear stage if I'm not mistaken.
However, even without looking I realize that "frightful prescence" and ability that targets will and causes "panicked is intended to be a mind altering fear effect.
I mean I NEVER thought I'd be on the side of the guys arguing RAI but in this case even if its Raw NOT (and as I've posted it is) the its probbably meant to be.
I mean Damn!
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 12:19:28 PM by Midnight_v »
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AfterCrescent

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Re: [3.5]Knight - What?! A Knight Fix?!
« Reply #52 on: July 13, 2009, 01:07:13 PM »
Ohkay, so...

First off, d20srd.org blows big donkey nuts. I've found NUMEROUS errors on that site in the past, and have since never used it. I like reliable things. Try this site.

On that note, I quoted a dragon's frightful presence and the Fear entry, neither of which mention it being a fear effect. Now if you look at your quote, Frightful Presence is a separate entry, not under Fear. It's there alphabetically. So your quote is just wrong.  That being said, when I scroll further down on this page, I see that it does reference it as a fear effect.

So yes, a dragon's frightful presence is a mind-affecting fear effect. I concede that point to you.

Now let's look at a Paladin's (one of the weakest classes) 3rd level ability.  Is that immunity to fear?  I'm going to go ahead and call bullshit on a Paladin being able to stare down a CR 30+ charging Red Dragon. No fucking way. So whether that's a flaw with the design of the Paladin or the Dragon, I don't know or care. But I do know that it's bullshit.

Irregardless of the above, the ability is fine as is. It's intent is to show that a Knight is so impressive, so majestic(insert adjectives ad nauseam), that his presence can cause you to be unsettled, or even make you cower/flee.  The flavor is EVERYWHERE in fantasy settings, so this is merely a mechanic to fit that.
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Midnight_v

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Re: [3.5]Knight - What?! A Knight Fix?!
« Reply #53 on: July 13, 2009, 02:37:39 PM »
 I mean i could go into why thats probbably an innappropriate ability but...

:(  Ooookkay, I suppose understand your position on the matter then. No big deal.


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Re: [3.5]Knight - What?! A Knight Fix?!
« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2009, 02:43:04 PM »
I'd love to hear about other issues you have with the class? If that's the only thing you dislike, we can agree to disagree. Some will run it with my change, some without. :)
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DimitriX

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Re: [3.5]Knight - What?! A Knight Fix?!
« Reply #55 on: August 25, 2009, 08:13:13 AM »
I like the class a lot. It's code of conduct should be harsher in my opinion. A very good fix (well, completely new build).
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Re: [3.5]Knight - What?! A Knight Fix?!
« Reply #56 on: August 25, 2009, 01:34:02 PM »
Thanks. :)

What would you recommend for changes for the Code of Knighthood?
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Re: [3.5]Knight - What?! A Knight Fix?!
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2009, 08:58:38 PM »
First off, let me just say that I really like the improvements you've made to the class. It gets rid of all the dead levels, and makes it a much more attractive class.

As for the code of conduct, I believe that something between what you have and the PHBII version would be best. They can flank, they can't accept the aid another action, they can accept healing, they are not allowed to coup-de-grace someone. Or rather, they are allowed to coup-de-grace only the target of their fighting challenge, and then only if they have rendered them helpless without assistance. (For example, by pinning them in a grapple.)
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Re: [3.5]Knight - What?! A Knight Fix?!
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2009, 12:08:00 PM »
First off, let me just say that I really like the improvements you've made to the class. It gets rid of all the dead levels, and makes it a much more attractive class.
Thanks :D

Quote
As for the code of conduct, I believe that something between what you have and the PHBII version would be best. They can flank, they can't accept the aid another action, they can accept healing, they are not allowed to coup-de-grace someone. Or rather, they are allowed to coup-de-grace only the target of their fighting challenge, and then only if they have rendered them helpless without assistance. (For example, by pinning them in a grapple.)
If they can flank, they can aid another. The two are pretty much the same thing (+2 bonus mechanically, thematically getting help from an ally). Knights are pillars of X (insert adjectives as needed). They're supposed to function alone. Flanking doesn't really fit that, imo. YMMV.

I'm not sure how your coup-de-grace rule would work, but it seems wonky. If you render them helpless via pinning, you have to maintain that pin, so you can't coup them yourself. Unless you knock them out yourself. Using virtue as one of the adjectives, killing helpless anything doesn't seem very knightly. ;)  But the code's actually the most flexible part of the class. If you & your DM create a viable knightly code, good for you. :)
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Re: [3.5]Knight - What?! A Knight Fix?!
« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2009, 12:47:58 PM »
I'm a bit concerned with handing out the mount at 5th level.  I know that's how paladins do it, but how useful is a heavy warhorse at 5th level, really?  People start flying at that point.  Mounts tend to be useful at lower levels.  At 5th level, he might want to look into flying mounts.

Also, handing out Mounted Combat at 5th level strongly encourages the knight not to take that feat earlier, as it becomes a dead class feature.  Perhaps the ability should grant a bonus feat with Mounted Combat as a prereq if the knight already has Mounted Combat.  So, things like Ride-By Attack or Spirited Charge become available.  If the knight happens to have all of those feats by 5th level, then simply grant any bonus feat (or bonus fighter feat, or something).
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