OOC Chatter

[Ubernoob]

A couple notes:
1) If you prepare spells those aren't considered set in stone until the first combat.  Y'know, because you're powerful enough to have more foresight than your player has.
2) I gave an RP post, w00t.  I won't be giving big descriptions on throw away NPCs, so does anyone have a problem with only getting "He's a fucking archetypal High Mage" as enough description for our opening NPC?

Feel free to discuss which Lord you're going to assault first here.

[Psychic Robot]

Is it too late to hop in?  I just finished a paper and got myself posted.

[Prak, the Mad]

[covering all bases]Yeah, wondering same thing. as I've said twice before, shit happened[/cab]

[Ubernoob]

If both of you toss up an intro post right after my most recent in game post I'll just edit my post to include your characters.  I just want to see how each character is depicted in the meeting.  Just make a "Previously..." or something at the top of the post to indicate it happened earlier.

[Prak, the Mad]

actually, I kinda figured my character would just shuffle in late, it would very much fit the "old, doesn't give a shit, possibly oblivious geezer" image I see him cultivating.

[Ubernoob]

actually, I kinda figured my character would just shuffle in late, it would very much fit the "old, doesn't give a shit, possibly oblivious geezer" image I see him cultivating.

Well, that can work too.  I didn't exactly write that the portal closed.

[Prak, the Mad]

um... how are we dealing with wish economy? we're all sufficiently powerful enough to go around bitch slapping efreets...

[Psychic Robot]

He said not to abuse shit or else it'll get used against you.

[woodenbandman]

Hence why I'm not optimizing the shit out of DMM to get 9th level spells in first level slots XD

[Tshern]

I am tossing in a post soon, in an hour or so. Sorry about the lag, RL issues.

[Judging Eagle]

He said not to abuse shit or else it'll get used against you.

I tend to find that +5 to all stats; unlimited +2 weapons, any +3 armour that you want and the ability to pick up any "wooden nickel" (aka value of 15,000 gp or less) magic item, doesn't really make spell casters "crazy".

In some ways, it gives the DM a ton more control of power of the powerscale of PCs. Since anything over 15k GP needs to be found while adventuring,  or traded for, the DM can simply say:
-You can have anything that your character can use with a value of 15k gp or less
-You guys can have X (say... 4) amount of items above 15k GP
-Only 2 can be over 30k Gp
-None can be over.... 40k Gp


I think Jagged's opinion of the value of "gold" might probably be best to describe what the Wish economy does to player expectations of something like "gold".

Specifically the time she and the other party members were able to drive a black dragon away from its hoard. They got so much gold*, but their reactions were not what would have been expected by other gaming groups.

Also, the treatment of lesser magic items and gem-encrusted dungeons becomes what DMs tend to want to see. Ignored and left behind since they're not worth the effort to grab. Some newbie group can grab them if they explore this place in the future**.

*: A large dragon needs a pile of gold at least as large as itself, and probably one size category larger than itself. Stacked deep enough to raise the dragon off of the ground and have a nice comfortable indentation for the dragon to rest inside of. To cover a 20' by 20' total area with a 10' by 10' mound about 4' high would take somewhere between 5-10 million gp, variance based on size of gold piece used (note: not coins, D&D never calls them coins, it calls them pieces).



**: Which gives me an idea for a low-level adventure for a campaign. Low level PCs that follow high level PCs into dungeons in order to scrounge and scavenge the lesser magic items that the highbies ignore. Facing a Bullette when you're level 3 is definitely interesting.

[Ubernoob]

Wish economy isn't abuse.  It's just more work on the people that already had sheets and on me as the DM.  It's very easy for me to say:
You all level and get X GP worth of items.  Because you're awesome you happen to be able to pick whatever you want.

[Prak, the Mad]

so is there an actual decision on using wish economy? I kinda like JE's idea:

I tend to find that +5 to all stats; unlimited +2 weapons, any +3 armour that you want and the ability to pick up any "wooden nickel" (aka value of 15,000 gp or less) magic item, doesn't really make spell casters "crazy".

In some ways, it gives the DM a ton more control of power of the powerscale of PCs. Since anything over 15k GP needs to be found while adventuring,  or traded for, the DM can simply say:
-You can have anything that your character can use with a value of 15k gp or less
-You guys can have X (say... 4) amount of items above 15k GP
-Only 2 can be over 30k Gp
-None can be over.... 40k Gp

[Kaelik]

1) Yay for infinite scrolls of Shapechange, and infinite Nightsticks, and I'm going to have to pick up CWI and just give myself A super powerful item for every slot.

Can we please not kill the game by ignoring one gentlemens agreement after another until nothing remains but sicking our gated prismatic dragons against their gated Prismatic Dragons?

[Ubernoob]

so is there an actual decision on using wish economy?

We're not using it.  Period.

[Judging Eagle]

1) Yay for infinite scrolls of Shapechange, and infinite Nightsticks, and I'm going to have to pick up CWI and just give myself A super powerful item for every slot.

Can we please not kill the game by ignoring one gentlemens agreement after another until nothing remains but sicking our gated prismatic dragons against their gated Prismatic Dragons?

Ruffles, and sourcream.

You'd get 8 slots max, not the bullshit Diablo magic item slots system.

Each activated Nightstick would take up a slot, since they are continously being used for their effect. Also, you would have to have a slot free at all times if you want to use a scroll or other such use-activated item.

So, -1 Slot per Night Stick in use, -1 Slot to be able to use a use activated item; that's at most 6 slots left.

Looking at your character sheet I see...
You have an int boosting item, 5 slots left
You have a con boosting item, 4 slots left
You have a dex booster, 3 left
Orange Ioun Stone, 2 left
Boots of faster movement?
[+10' per 1/3 of your caster levels (round up) [+50' of speed], 1 slot left
Handy Haversack. No slots left.

All of your other items wouldn't work. Just an fyi. You'd get 1 slot back if you don't use any night sticks.

I'm guessing you can see how that balances itself pretty easily. Most characters have to prioritize certain things, and select items that they consider crucial to their character.

Also, the only things that wish economy would allow are either things that give numerical bonuses (and scale) do not provide a numeric benefit usually reproduce the effect of a spell, and are caster level 5 or less. So, the Wands with level 3 spells are minor, the ones with level 4 spells can't be wished for.

All that you'd get is not having to do book keeping for useless items that you don't care about, or having people seriously care about looting the mundane gems that encrust a statue. Really, when the PCs sit down and try to pick up as many gems from a fiends hoard, even if they take 1-3 points of fire damage per gem (and heal it with a wand) the game is more about Taxes and Tariffs, than Dungeons or Dragons.


In any case, this is all a large aside, and this game is being run differently from what I described above. The rules for current play are set, so let's roll with them. If they get changed, that's cool, but this works as well.

[Kaelik]

Except no where in the Wish Economy section of the Tomes is the Book of Gears item location system mentioned.

And clearly if I were building a character under that system, I would build him differently (I don't even have Turning, that was just hypothetical.)

Yes, I know you like Tome games. You know what, so do I sometimes. But I built a level 14 character for a very specific type of game. I was very specifically told no Tome Anything, which prevented me from playing several characters that I really enjoy. I have since become relatively happy with this specific one, and then, Tome everything has become allowed and left me somewhere halfway between extremely pissed off, and ready to throttle you and Prak.

Hell, Uber's been trying to slow you down, but everytime he says no you have to spend 5 minutes typing up an empassioned defense of Tome shit as if all 4/7ths of the people in this game weren't Denners.

Hell, I got a BG account a couple months ago and I've been at the Den for years. Yes I know the Book of Gears rules, I also know they were never adequately finished, and that they are not necessarily included just because the Wish Economy is.

Personally, I like being able to invest in a Dex booster without it taking up 1/8th of my resources. I like having a CL specced character. I like these things, and so if you would stop killing every aspect of my character bit by bit until I figuratively rip his character sheet up, that would be great.

[Judging Eagle]

That's why I said it's all an aside.

Also, you're a caster. You should be able to be put into a group that only uses Tome rules, while you use straight Core/Spatbook rules and the power levels of the characters will be the same.

If anything, the caster will still pull out ahead, and that's not theorycrafting, that's every single full caster that I've had play in tome games that my group ran. The 2 different clerics, 2 different Druids and Wizard all not only kept on par with the other Tome classes, but tended to keep just slightly ahead of the Tome characters. I've found that the Tome stuff puts casters and non-casters neck and neck.

In the case of the wizard, for multiple heavy combat sessions he had still selected no feats, and only had an int boosting item, with nothing else, because the player was lazy. That Wizard got more kills than any other two party members combined.

Like I said, this is all strictly discussion. I've already spent the greater part of my character's cash on items; I think that there's a meagre 20k unspent from my character's pool, so I'm not keen on having to re-gear at this point either.

((Side note: The Wish Econ doesn't have any BoG material, mostly b/c the BoG wasn't written down at the time and Frank had to spend quite a bit of time ranting and raving that people want their magic weapons to be two mutually-exclusive things before he started writing down anything BoG-related. Personally, one of the more interesting things about what Frank and K were writing was that they often would say "Well.... this is a quick job, so do this 'for now', but we want to write a whole book that talks specifically about... Paladins, or Magic Items and Traps, or Dragons and Monsters. So, use this now, but scrap it and re-write it when new stuff replaces it"

[Prak, the Mad]

so is there an actual decision on using wish economy?

We're not using it.  Period.

good to know, thanks

[Judging Eagle]

Actually, I've got a sort of pertinant IG question.

What do you guys think is more valuable:

Bypassing all DR/Hardness with all slam/weapon attacks

or

Dealing 2 more points of Con damage with all slam/weapon attacks?



With the first option: walls wouldn't be a problem for our group to SWAT its way though. If it becomes necessary.

(and if any spell caster can cast, you know, Silence on a rock, I'm sure that a pair of maces power-attacked and blitzed at a wall or door will bring it down (Current melee To-Hit: +17; roll needed to hit a wall: 10; in 1 round, I've got 6 attacks, 2 at +17 and 4 at +15; With Blitz that's 6*14 (84); with 5 points of BaB removed to power-attack that's an other +60 pts of damage. In 6 seconds thats a minimum of 144 pts of damage to a wall/door/whatever.

If Jagged decides that she wants to "lend a hand", with rage she'd swing for 10d6+10-ish; which would also help for the group to quickly flank a guarded doorway. She's got about a +21 to hit (str + Bab only here, then there's the magic weapon; she can dump +11 to hit and still hit a door on a 1).

Each swing deals about 81 damage (35 avg rage dmg; 10 str; 14 blitz; +22 power attack), 3 times that's 243. About 40% more damage per combat round than Merhault, but that's normal, since he's not a Barbarian, and Jagged is.

Also, my character would deal more damage to.... outsiders; which we'll see a lot of I'm betting. [/sarcasm]

In the second option, Merhault deals 3 Con damage every time he hits an enemy.

Which could be, you know, really bad news bears for a lot of creatures that we face. If all 6 attacks land, that's 18 Con damage.

Which, while it wouldn't actually kill anything outright, it would allow for the spell casters to kill anything with a spell 9 levels lower than they feel is necessary to use. Unfortunately, there are no lvl 0 Fort-Save SoDs, but w/e. I'm sure that Blindness/Deafness would work well enough.

Outsiders aren't immune to Con damage, so less damage, but reducing their total HP and Fort Saves does help the group. Of course, golems and undead would need to be left in the hands of others.

... and, I just realized that I need a Golembane Scarab for my character. Also, I'm tired. very tired.