Author Topic: Obama ! (and the economy)  (Read 20412 times)

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Tshern

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Re: Obama !
« Reply #100 on: November 10, 2008, 12:15:39 PM »
No wonder the sum actually grew, I think we all anticipated that. Thanks for the link though, I'll give a good read. Let's hope these measures give people some slack.

Do you support the bailout?

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Hallack

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Re: Obama !
« Reply #101 on: November 10, 2008, 01:30:54 PM »
No wonder the sum actually grew, I think we all anticipated that. Thanks for the link though, I'll give a good read. Let's hope these measures give people some slack.

Do you support the bailout?

Me?  No.  I think it is well intended theft that will not fix the problems only prolong the collapse and breakdown.  I think that with or without the bailouts there is going to be much suffering.  The bailout is only the government interfering with and skewing who feels the pain.  Though it would cause many troubles and significant hard times I think these businesses should be allowed to fail.  Then smarter businesses and people who have saved can buy the assets and restart more sound productive ventures.  But then I'm a fan of free markets with limited government intervention at best.  What we have today though often called free market capitalism is very far from it. 

To bring this back on topic I think that Obama is going to be good for the American image abroad but I'm afraid he is going to continue even further away from free market capitalism (Bush and most the republicans do not really seem to believe in free markets these days either) with policies that will 'help' some wanting handouts aid while stunting economic and productive development by financially and regulatorily pressuring the very people that create work opportunities. 

All that said, I hope that I am wrong and things come out great. 
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Tshern

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Re: Obama !
« Reply #102 on: November 10, 2008, 01:40:16 PM »
Thanks for the opinion, but that indeed is a matter that is to be dealt with in another thread. Needless to say, we would have some disagreements.

Also, I don't trust in free markets. The main issue is self-regulation: How the heck does that work? Let's see how Obama and his crew will adjust the American way of taking care of the economy, playing with that much money is not an easy task for anyone...

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Irthos Levethix

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Re: Obama !
« Reply #103 on: November 10, 2008, 02:24:48 PM »
Dunno if this is completely off-topic, having not read this thread at all.

*Warning*  Mildly racist joke  *Warning*
[spoiler]
So, you know how the bills in American currency feature the face of a President?  Guess which bill Obama's face is going on?

[spoiler]The Food Stamp[/spoiler][/spoiler]

This from the guy who voted Obama. :D

Also, I want to put this saying I heard while playing Eq2 on a tee-shirt.
"I'm not racist: You're just living up to your stereotype"
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PhoenixInferno

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Re: Obama !
« Reply #104 on: November 10, 2008, 10:16:31 PM »
Thanks for the opinion, but that indeed is a matter that is to be dealt with in another thread. Needless to say, we would have some disagreements.

Also, I don't trust in free markets. The main issue is self-regulation: How the heck does that work? Let's see how Obama and his crew will adjust the American way of taking care of the economy, playing with that much money is not an easy task for anyone...
Not that I don't trust in free-markets, but perhaps we should employ what good ol' Ronnie Reagan said - "Trust, but verify".  I mean, the pursuit of self-interest got us into this financial crisis.  I mean, a net present value analysis would have likely shown that keeping the financial system intact is more valuable in the long-term than the relentless pursuit of short-term gains.

Johannixx

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Re: Obama !
« Reply #105 on: November 11, 2008, 03:17:20 AM »
Thanks for the opinion, but that indeed is a matter that is to be dealt with in another thread. Needless to say, we would have some disagreements.

Also, I don't trust in free markets. The main issue is self-regulation: How the heck does that work? Let's see how Obama and his crew will adjust the American way of taking care of the economy, playing with that much money is not an easy task for anyone...
Not that I don't trust in free-markets, but perhaps we should employ what good ol' Ronnie Reagan said - "Trust, but verify".  I mean, the pursuit of self-interest got us into this financial crisis.  I mean, a net present value analysis would have likely shown that keeping the financial system intact is more valuable in the long-term than the relentless pursuit of short-term gains.

The problem comes from imperfect regulation (and is there any other kind?)  If you make an artificially skewed playing field, you will have people gravitate towards the glitches in the system.  That's what happened here.  Mortgage-backed securities were an unregulated niche market that everyone thought would go boom.  And it did, for quite some time, until the bottom dropped out of it.  Most people probably knew that was going to happen, they just were under two misconceptions:  first, that they could make a bunch of money and then get out before the collapse, and second, that the collapse wouldn't have such far-reaching effects.  The big boys should have known better.  They didn't.  I'm not opposed to a bailout per se, I just don't want to reward idiotic behavior.  Bail the shareholders out, sure, but hang the decision makers out to dry.

X-Codes

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Re: Obama !
« Reply #106 on: November 11, 2008, 04:17:02 AM »
Me?  No.  I think it is well intended theft that will not fix the problems only prolong the collapse and breakdown...
The more I learn about how the Bailout is being implemented and about the emergency loans being made by the Treasury department the more I'm thinking that this economic implosion (at least state side) was engineered by greedy CEOs to try and leverage one last massive looting of the government before the current President leaves office and the markets become re-regulated under a new administration.

Apparently there are trillions of dollars in loans and bailout money that the administration is not reporting on.  That is to say, they have given out a couple trillion dollars and won't say to whom they have given it.

Tshern

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Re: Obama !
« Reply #107 on: November 11, 2008, 08:41:21 AM »
Thanks for the opinion, but that indeed is a matter that is to be dealt with in another thread. Needless to say, we would have some disagreements.

Also, I don't trust in free markets. The main issue is self-regulation: How the heck does that work? Let's see how Obama and his crew will adjust the American way of taking care of the economy, playing with that much money is not an easy task for anyone...
Not that I don't trust in free-markets, but perhaps we should employ what good ol' Ronnie Reagan said - "Trust, but verify".  I mean, the pursuit of self-interest got us into this financial crisis.  I mean, a net present value analysis would have likely shown that keeping the financial system intact is more valuable in the long-term than the relentless pursuit of short-term gains.
Not sure if your Green Party still has this on their agenda, but I'd actually advocate maximum wage.

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Re: Obama !
« Reply #108 on: November 11, 2008, 01:17:00 PM »
The problem comes from imperfect regulation (and is there any other kind?)  If you make an artificially skewed playing field, you will have people gravitate towards the glitches in the system.  That's what happened here.  Mortgage-backed securities were an unregulated niche market that everyone thought would go boom.  And it did, for quite some time, until the bottom dropped out of it.  Most people probably knew that was going to happen, they just were under two misconceptions:  first, that they could make a bunch of money and then get out before the collapse, and second, that the collapse wouldn't have such far-reaching effects.  The big boys should have known better.  They didn't.
Agreed, except that regulation is not the only culprit. Low interest rates, incompetent or partial rating agencies... many parts of the system failed.
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Hallack

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Re: Obama !
« Reply #109 on: November 11, 2008, 02:43:05 PM »
Agreed, except that regulation is not the only culprit. Low interest rates, incompetent or partial rating agencies... many parts of the system failed.

But those interest rates and the ratings systems are also part of the skewing regulatory system.  Not saying ratings are bad, they are not.  I suspect however that if we looked into it there is a great deal of regulating of the ratings system that also skews things one direction or another.
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PhoenixInferno

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Re: Obama !
« Reply #110 on: November 11, 2008, 02:55:58 PM »
Thanks for the opinion, but that indeed is a matter that is to be dealt with in another thread. Needless to say, we would have some disagreements.

Also, I don't trust in free markets. The main issue is self-regulation: How the heck does that work? Let's see how Obama and his crew will adjust the American way of taking care of the economy, playing with that much money is not an easy task for anyone...
Not that I don't trust in free-markets, but perhaps we should employ what good ol' Ronnie Reagan said - "Trust, but verify".  I mean, the pursuit of self-interest got us into this financial crisis.  I mean, a net present value analysis would have likely shown that keeping the financial system intact is more valuable in the long-term than the relentless pursuit of short-term gains.
Not sure if your Green Party still has this on their agenda, but I'd actually advocate maximum wage.
See, that's anti-American.  The point of America is opportunity, limited only by your talent/skill.

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Re: Obama !
« Reply #111 on: November 11, 2008, 03:02:48 PM »
Agreed, except that regulation is not the only culprit. Low interest rates, incompetent or partial rating agencies... many parts of the system failed.

But those interest rates and the ratings systems are also part of the skewing regulatory system.  Not saying ratings are bad, they are not.  I suspect however that if we looked into it there is a great deal of regulating of the ratings system that also skews things one direction or another.
Ah ok - I read "regulation" as "government regulation", hence my objection. Rating agencies were supposed to be part of the self-regulation of the market and that part unfortunately failed.
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Hallack

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Re: Obama !
« Reply #112 on: November 11, 2008, 03:37:58 PM »
Agreed, except that regulation is not the only culprit. Low interest rates, incompetent or partial rating agencies... many parts of the system failed.

But those interest rates and the ratings systems are also part of the skewing regulatory system.  Not saying ratings are bad, they are not.  I suspect however that if we looked into it there is a great deal of regulating of the ratings system that also skews things one direction or another.
Ah ok - I read "regulation" as "government regulation", hence my objection. Rating agencies were supposed to be part of the self-regulation of the market and that part unfortunately failed.

I think that self-regulation failed also partially due to government intervention or perhaps that government intervention magnified the failure in the self regulatory system.  My understanding is that government also mandated aspects of the 'self regulatory' ratings systems.  ie they only licensed a limited number which kept down competition that otherwise may have kept the system running cleaner.  Other government mandates also skewed even the ratings markets.  I started to post some links but a simple search about credit ratings regulation will suffice for those interested.

Ratings
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Re: Obama !
« Reply #113 on: November 11, 2008, 04:29:47 PM »
This old article has the basic low-down on CRAs.

I doubt having more agencies would have made things better. One of their fundamental flaws is that they are paid by the entities they are supposed to evaluate. Anywhere else that would be a conflict of interest, but apparently here it's not.

Then again I'm not a big fan of completely unregulated markets so my bias goes contrary to the bias of other people here (not sure about you specifically, Hallack :)).
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Hallack

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Re: Obama !
« Reply #114 on: November 11, 2008, 05:00:05 PM »
Hehe, I'm biased against regulation (more specifically government style).  I think that about as good and efficient it can get is to let profit motive do it's job.  The counter balance to free markets to me should be protection of property rights and against coercion.  ie Valid governmental intervention in business is to protect my property rights and help enforce contracts that are freely entered.  If big business does unscrupulous stuff to coerce me then it is just for government to help me deal with that.  If big business does stuff that damages me or my property (even pollution for example), then it is right for them to be held responsible for damages.  If such a regard to liberty and property were in place I think it would even deal with most of our pollution issues.

I'm not foolish enough to think free markets are perfect and without ups and downs.  I just think they are more efficient than central planning.  It is all too complex for a few people to control.  And controls invariably end up skewing things one way or another with unintended consequences.  It is also government intervention that has grown Americas corrupt lobby system.  Without government intervening in all this stuff there would be no motive for big business to be lobbying for favorable regulation.  That I think is one of the biggest problems with regulation.... it becomes and game of who can push the most favorable package for their particular industry never mind what it may do to other industries.  These days it seems that all too much of the governments regulatory packages are actually produced by the various industries themselves.

Crap... I've done contributed to further derailing.  Sorry Obama thread hehe.  But then I view this all as very relevant to Obama is it deals with the ideology behind his work as president.  ( So I'm really not off topic :P )
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Talen Lee

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Re: Obama !
« Reply #115 on: November 11, 2008, 05:33:34 PM »
*quipping in from the beginning of the thread*

Thank god.

Tshern

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Re: Obama !
« Reply #116 on: November 11, 2008, 05:36:15 PM »
Quote from: PhoenixInferno
See, that's anti-American.  The point of America is opportunity, limited only by your talent/skill.
Sorry, but I just had to cut the quotes, I hate having 50 quotes and only reply by a sentence or two. Anyway, that might be the point of American, but that's not the way it really works, because you are also limited by the money of other people.

Quote from: Hallack
Crap... I've done contributed to further derailing.  Sorry Obama thread hehe.  But then I view this all as very relevant to Obama is it deals with the ideology behind his work as president.
For some reason all threads we both post to turn into discussions about different economical models.

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Re: Obama !
« Reply #117 on: November 11, 2008, 06:00:19 PM »
Being the OP has its use. Now it's magically not off-topic. :D

I am not for central planning but otherwise we disagree quite a bit, as expected. Regulation does tend to be inefficient but to me it's the lesser of the two evils. Externalities are the big no-no : for example air pollution does not damage anyone's property but it's a damn big problem (there's the well-known "tragedy of the commons" as a more general example). And then there are monopolies and price fixing in general, which a free market can't deal with adequately (and it includes no coercion).
But I think at this point we have a fairly clear view of each other's PoV so we'll soon agree to disagree. :)
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X-Codes

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Re: Obama !
« Reply #118 on: November 11, 2008, 07:59:11 PM »
Hehe, I'm biased against regulation (more specifically government style).  I think that about as good and efficient it can get is to let profit motive do it's job.  The counter balance to free markets to me should be protection of property rights and against coercion.  ie Valid governmental intervention in business is to protect my property rights and help enforce contracts that are freely entered.  If big business does unscrupulous stuff to coerce me then it is just for government to help me deal with that.  If big business does stuff that damages me or my property (even pollution for example), then it is right for them to be held responsible for damages.  If such a regard to liberty and property were in place I think it would even deal with most of our pollution issues.
Profit motive is a fancy word for greed, and it doesn't work as the sole motivator of an economy because it creates boom/bust cycles which are notoriously devastating to the middle and lower classes, and if the middle and lower classes start taking economic hits then they're going to stop spending their money on goods from businesses and start bringing the upper class down with them.  Furthermore, Government Regulations are how the government enforces our property rights.  When people start pulling the shenanigans that we've heard of over the past year, stock prices become manipulated for no other reason than these people are fucking around.  They make short-term profits and legitimate investors lose money.  How can the Government enforce property rights if taking your property isn't illegal?

PhoenixInferno

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Re: Obama ! (and the economy)
« Reply #119 on: November 12, 2008, 03:05:00 AM »
That's an interesting point, X-Codes - isn't naked short selling a violation of my property rights?  What gives major hedge funds the right to force down the price of a stock that almost all Americans own for their own desire for profit?