Author Topic: This IS The Thread You're Looking For: First Look At 4E Quickplay!  (Read 21672 times)

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cdrcjsn

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Re: This IS The Thread You're Looking For: First Look At 4E Quickplay!
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2008, 05:13:16 PM »
If I don't get fun fun Silent Image shenanigans, I am going to be one sad hamster.

It's been stated that most illusion attack type effects will be relegated to the Illusionist class, due to come out later.

phelanarcetus

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Re: This IS The Thread You're Looking For: First Look At 4E Quickplay!
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2008, 05:13:32 PM »
I'm hopeful for more variety of wizard options.

However, one thing I forgot about earlier is the fact that a variety of the classic schools of magic are being virtually ignored for now.  With the intent of having a class focused entirely on those schools in later PHBs.  I honestly suspect that the Wizard will feel somewhat like an Evoker, and Illusionists, Conjurers, Necromancers, and so on will be released at a later date.  They have said a wizard isn't just blasting, but, well, I haven't seen many wizard options yet.  I've seen two or maybe three wizard dailies, one of which was Sleep.

cdrcjsn

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Re: This IS The Thread You're Looking For: First Look At 4E Quickplay!
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2008, 05:17:00 PM »
Wizard looks pretty much like a bad blaster mage.

I hope to find that WotCs definition for a "controller" is not for a character that hurts many opponents but for a real bc mage (GOD). We will see what powers/spells will be available for a wizard with the PHB. I am not sure if real bc is still possible for 4th edition because effects might only work till a DC 10 save. So the expected value for a save ends power are ~1.5 turns  :eh

limsup

Most of the daze/blind/immoblize effects are "until the end of your next turn."  However, wizards specializing in control will have options to extend that.  Battlefield Control is still a viable strategy, though the current Wizard does seem to be more of a Warmage.

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Re: This IS The Thread You're Looking For: First Look At 4E Quickplay!
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2008, 05:18:51 PM »
Random thought.  Since we all know WotC is in love with damage and underrates BC, what if we're just in the same sort of situation we were in when all we had for 3.0 was pregens?  IE, what if the BC is there, they just think it's bad and are throwing blasting on instead?
Anyway, this cake is great!  It's so delicious and moist.

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Bozwevial

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Re: This IS The Thread You're Looking For: First Look At 4E Quickplay!
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2008, 07:18:31 PM »
Random thought.  Since we all know WotC is in love with damage and underrates BC, what if we're just in the same sort of situation we were in when all we had for 3.0 was pregens?  IE, what if the BC is there, they just think it's bad and are throwing blasting on instead?

God, I hope so. I want my Glitterdust.

Shadeseraph

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Re: This IS The Thread You're Looking For: First Look At 4E Quickplay!
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2008, 07:49:31 PM »
If I don't get fun fun Silent Image shenanigans, I am going to be one sad hamster.

It's been stated that most illusion attack type effects will be relegated to the Illusionist class, due to come out later.

I would have preferred the core wizard following the path of the 3.5 beguiler. They gave us the Warmage. I'm sad. I will have to wait to the second player's handbook. That said, I have to agree that a division between schools is definitely a good way to balance things and still keep some flavor.

Random thought.  Since we all know WotC is in love with damage and underrates BC, what if we're just in the same sort of situation we were in when all we had for 3.0 was pregens?  IE, what if the BC is there, they just think it's bad and are throwing blasting on instead?

That would make me so, so happy...
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limes superior

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Re: This IS The Thread You're Looking For: First Look At 4E Quickplay!
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2008, 08:01:20 PM »

Most of the daze/blind/immoblize effects are "until the end of your next turn."  However, wizards specializing in control will have options to extend that.  Battlefield Control is still a viable strategy, though the current Wizard does seem to be more of a Warmage.

Is it true what you already saw 4th edition stuff (like spells, feats) to support your point? Possibly as playtester? :wink

limsup

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Re: This IS The Thread You're Looking For: First Look At 4E Quickplay!
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2008, 08:59:44 PM »
Random thought.  Since we all know WotC is in love with damage and underrates BC, what if we're just in the same sort of situation we were in when all we had for 3.0 was pregens?  IE, what if the BC is there, they just think it's bad and are throwing blasting on instead?

I truly hope (and strongly suspect) this is the case.  Sample characters are rarely optimized in any way. 
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cdrcjsn

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Re: This IS The Thread You're Looking For: First Look At 4E Quickplay!
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2008, 09:32:03 PM »

Most of the daze/blind/immoblize effects are "until the end of your next turn."  However, wizards specializing in control will have options to extend that.  Battlefield Control is still a viable strategy, though the current Wizard does seem to be more of a Warmage.

Is it true what you already saw 4th edition stuff (like spells, feats) to support your point? Possibly as playtester? :wink

limsup

Cedric Atizado.  You can look up my name on that big list of names that WotC put out as playtesters. 

I did play a BC Wizard at the Paragon level.  Though some things were changed since that character was played, enough was left untouched that I can confidently say that Wizards can still do effective battlefield control.  However, it will be weaker than 3e (no more spells without saves, won't last as long), and most likely will include a damage component in addition to (not instead of!) debuffing effects.

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Re: This IS The Thread You're Looking For: First Look At 4E Quickplay!
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2008, 09:38:03 PM »
Cedric Atizado.  You can look up my name on that big list of names that WotC put out as playtesters. 

I did play a BC Wizard at the Paragon level.  Though some things were changed since that character was played, enough was left untouched that I can confidently say that Wizards can still do effective battlefield control.  However, it will be weaker than 3e (no more spells without saves, won't last as long), and most likely will include a damage component in addition to (not instead of!) debuffing effects.
Glad to hear that BC is still intact albeit slightly different.

Dan2

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Re: This IS The Thread You're Looking For: First Look At 4E Quickplay!
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2008, 09:52:16 PM »

Most of the daze/blind/immoblize effects are "until the end of your next turn."  However, wizards specializing in control will have options to extend that.  Battlefield Control is still a viable strategy, though the current Wizard does seem to be more of a Warmage.

Is it true what you already saw 4th edition stuff (like spells, feats) to support your point? Possibly as playtester? :wink

limsup

Cedric Atizado.  You can look up my name on that big list of names that WotC put out as playtesters. 

I did play a BC Wizard at the Paragon level.  Though some things were changed since that character was played, enough was left untouched that I can confidently say that Wizards can still do effective battlefield control.  However, it will be weaker than 3e (no more spells without saves, won't last as long), and most likely will include a damage component in addition to (not instead of!) debuffing effects.

When I was this, my suspicions were confirmed.  I saw the ENWorld spells list-thing, and I figured that most of the delicious Battlefield Control would be an afterthought to some damage (because Warmages of the Coast want everyone to feel involved in damage)...

As long as the BC is actually there, I'll be very pleased.

AlienFromBeyond

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Re: This IS The Thread You're Looking For: First Look At 4E Quickplay!
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2008, 10:25:35 PM »

Most of the daze/blind/immoblize effects are "until the end of your next turn."  However, wizards specializing in control will have options to extend that.  Battlefield Control is still a viable strategy, though the current Wizard does seem to be more of a Warmage.

Is it true what you already saw 4th edition stuff (like spells, feats) to support your point? Possibly as playtester? :wink

limsup

Cedric Atizado.  You can look up my name on that big list of names that WotC put out as playtesters. 

I did play a BC Wizard at the Paragon level.  Though some things were changed since that character was played, enough was left untouched that I can confidently say that Wizards can still do effective battlefield control.  However, it will be weaker than 3e (no more spells without saves, won't last as long), and most likely will include a damage component in addition to (not instead of!) debuffing effects.

When I was this, my suspicions were confirmed.  I saw the ENWorld spells list-thing, and I figured that most of the delicious Battlefield Control would be an afterthought to some damage (because Warmages of the Coast want everyone to feel involved in damage)...
More like BC in 3.X is far more powerful than simple damage, and wanted to tone it down so blasting something is just as viable, not to mention less frustrating for whatever is the target.

highbulp

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Re: This IS The Thread You're Looking For: First Look At 4E Quickplay!
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2008, 10:49:02 PM »
I'm going to play the devil's advocate and argue that, from a game design stand-point, having Wizards do primarily damage makes perfect sense.

HP is (and always has been) an abstraction. It doesn't represent actual cuts, bruises, or burns, but more of a measure of "how close are you to making that creature never rise again." So you could use HP and damage to represent repeatedly slowing a creature until he stopped entirely--i.e., was at zero hit points. In other words, there is nothing to stop you from reflavoring your 4e fireball to be that you're actually turning the ground to mud and they are slowly sinking. It's all a matter of flavor. If you want him to feel like a BC rather than a Warmage, have at it. It just means the DM might have a few less conditions to keep track of.

BC is, in some ways, a different style of play. If the goal of a fight was to move a monster into a certain square, then BC-style tactics would be the way to adjudicate all powers. But the goal of a fight is to bring the monsters to 0 HP. So powers do damage. Whether we like it or not, it makes sense.

...at least it does to me.

EDIT: Alternatively (and this might be a better example, and easier to implement)--you could go with the "HP as fighting energy" explanation, and say that nothing except the killing blow actually connects. So maybe a "sleep" spell does HP damage because it costs the target some energy to shrug it off. In an rather simple game, that would make perfect sense (something at the complexity of say Inn-Fighting--there you could have a "sleep spell" ability that does HP damage because HP is the only thing that is tracked).

But this does break down as you add complexity, especially at the level of D&D. But one of the goals of 4e has been to reduce complexity so... This would be a way of reducing complexity but not necessarily dumbing-down the game (as long as the BC spells have other effects, or change the effectiveness of other abilities)--it becomes a game of tactical positioning rather than tactical spell selection (as I see it).
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 12:07:03 AM by highbulp »

cdrcjsn

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Re: This IS The Thread You're Looking For: First Look At 4E Quickplay!
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2008, 11:01:36 PM »
More like BC in 3.X is far more powerful than simple damage, and wanted to tone it down so blasting something is just as viable, not to mention less frustrating for whatever is the target.

That and the fights in 3.X just wasn't designed to involve the same number of creatures that a typical 4e fight will throw at the PCs.  In fights that regularly feature half a dozen opponents rather than a single boss type, spells that do damage to a large number of them (or at the very least, remove the minions from play) might be a better strategy than incapacitating one of them.

In 3.X you will almost never throw foes of equal level and number to the PCs...in 4e, it's expected.

Dan2

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Re: This IS The Thread You're Looking For: First Look At 4E Quickplay!
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2008, 11:46:53 PM »
I'm going to play the devil's advocate and argue that, from a game design stand-point, having Wizards do primarily damage makes perfect sense.

HP is (and always has been) an abstraction. It doesn't represent actual cuts, bruises, or burns, but more of a measure of "how close are you to making that creature never rise again." So you could use HP and damage to represent repeatedly slowing a creature until he stopped entirely--i.e., was at zero hit points. In other words, there is nothing to stop you from reflavoring your 4e fireball to be that you're actually turning the ground to mud and they are slowly sinking. It's all a matter of flavor. If you want him to feel like a BC rather than a Warmage, have at it. It just means the DM might have a few less conditions to keep track of.

BC is, in some ways, a different style of play. If the goal of a fight was to move a monster into a certain square, then BC-style tactics would be the way to adjudicate all powers. But the goal of a fight is to bring the monsters to 0 HP. So powers do damage. Whether we like it or not, it makes sense.

...at least it does to me.

I'll agree that HP is an abstraction and can be used to flavor things in interesting ways.  The problem is when multiple people are doing damage.
in your slow-based fireball in order to make sense out of further HP damage, the fighter would have to be weakening the guy so he couldn't move as fast.  Certainly you could say that hacking at him would weaken him, but then a few other arguments could crop up.

You can make a lot of connections, but eventually, it starts treading into other territories and losing suspension of disbelief.  Ex: why isn't it a strength penalty if he's being slowed to a stop, unable to move, or a DEX penalty.

Your ideas are all valid, but they are very difficult to implement, especially for newer DMs.

Also, props for devil's advocate.  It's a fun position to take ;)

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Re: This IS The Thread You're Looking For: First Look At 4E Quickplay!
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2008, 12:21:00 AM »
I think a 1st lv wizard gets sleep as a daily power, though with the way saves work in 4e, foes have a 50% chance of shaking it off, so don't expect it to work for more than a round or 2. :eh

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tsuyoshikentsu

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Re: This IS The Thread You're Looking For: First Look At 4E Quickplay!
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2008, 12:51:25 AM »
The problem with direct damage is that, while there are indeed more enemies, the system encourages people to spread out and move around.  So AoE damage still is underpowered.
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PhoenixInferno

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Re: This IS The Thread You're Looking For: First Look At 4E Quickplay!
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2008, 03:01:18 AM »
The problem with direct damage is that, while there are indeed more enemies, the system encourages people to spread out and move around.  So AoE damage still is underpowered.
Unless you have a good defender that encourages enemies to stay put...

I made a devil's-advocate argument for the "blaster-mage" Wizard in the forums we used to do the review.  I will repost it here.

tsuyoshikentsu

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Re: This IS The Thread You're Looking For: First Look At 4E Quickplay!
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2008, 03:53:57 AM »
Right, but if the defender is making enemies stay put, they're grouped around him.  Which means he's gonna get hit if you try anything that'll catch more than three of them.

Besides, if an enemy can force-move a defender away from his buddies, you're SOL.
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PhoenixInferno

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Re: This IS The Thread You're Looking For: First Look At 4E Quickplay!
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2008, 03:59:04 AM »
Right, but if the defender is making enemies stay put, they're grouped around him.  Which means he's gonna get hit if you try anything that'll catch more than three of them.
Clever placement, correct selection of your attack.  Perhaps, reshaping the attack spell?

Yes, Push/Pull effects are powerful for that reason.  Some Warlord powers can be helpful to correct that, however.