Making Raptor Arrows not made of Fail.

[Sunic_Flames]

Copy pasta bowl goes below.

Ya know, I just looked at the Raptor Arrows. Doesn't it strike anyone else that these are absurdly overpriced? 6k for an arrow? Seriously. Remember projectiles cost 50 times less, so it actually comes out to be more expensive than a +10 weapon by equivalency. (300k) Granted you only need about 5, and not 50 since they don't break and return at the end of the round, but it's just a +1 arrow with an odd returning variant, and bane: whatever you shoot only if you torch a 4th level spell slot or torch a feat. Alignment restrictions too. Normally alignment restrictions make items cheaper, especially when you need costs just to use them effectively (as otherwise all you get is infinite ammo, which is not so great).

Because the entry states it puts the arrow back on your bow, it probably doesn't even work with full attacks (as now you have multiple arrows on the bow, or on the ground) though it might work with Manyshot.

So assuming this item were changed to remove the relic shit (it just works) and the arrows go in your quiver or something so they don't fuck with your attacks what would be a reasonable price for this thing? A +3 (+1 Bane Returning variant) arrow is normally 360 gold, but can break. Bane: Any is better than a +1, though I'm not sure how to rank it. The not breaking thing is nice, but you're better off getting special properties on your bow anyways so eh. For reference an effectively +4 arrow is 640 gold, and an effectively +5 arrow is 1k. I really can't see this thing going over about 3k. And that's really stretching it.

On a side note, the MIC is normally pretty good at pricing stuff reasonably, but is prone to a lot of Epic Fail regarding unique items. Which is why I rarely look at these sections.

[dman11235]

They are amazing already.  It's an arrow....that returns to you.  Just think for a second.  What can you do with that?  Get ammunition priced enhancements, of course, that are constant.  Get a bunch of them, and make them all +10, which costs, what, your full attack worth of arrows increased to +10 from +1.  You now have an effective +18 bow, +23 if using GMWeapon.  +24 if you sacrifice the spell slot (level 4?  At higher levels?).  Even without the spell slot loss it's well worth the price.  The thing is: you're spending the money once, not per arrow fired.

[Callix]

They are amazing already.  It's an arrow....that returns to you.  Just think for a second.  What can you do with that?  Get ammunition priced enhancements, of course, that are constant.  Get a bunch of them, and make them all +10, which costs, what, your full attack worth of arrows increased to +10 from +1.  You now have an effective +18 bow, +23 if using GMWeapon.  +24 if you sacrifice the spell slot (level 4?  At higher levels?).  Even without the spell slot loss it's well worth the price.  The thing is: you're spending the money once, not per arrow fired.

Ranged Weapons and Ammunition
The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

You can still get a 1/10 discount by enchanting your arrows, but they come with at least a +3 in other qualities tacked on, boosting the price.

[Ubernoob]

Raptor arrows are damn fucking good for their price.  Dman has it.

[Sunic_Flames]

Thing is it isn't clear what the actual + whatever is. It has a base +1, and presumably returning costs the same. But Bane works on anything, which doesn't have a parallel to Bane (pick one). So it's suffering from poor documentation. And the auto string thing. Unless putting arrows in a quiver is a free action, this means you're stuck with multiple arrows on the string. Manyshot still works, Full attacks don't.

The spell slot mainly matters if you aren't a divine caster. Then you don't have it to give.

Ok, so 6k is fine. But there's still documentation Fail, and not going into quiver Fail. Can we agree on this much?

Edit: Ammo is 1/10th price now? You sure?

[Callix]

Thing is it isn't clear what the actual + whatever is. It has a base +1, and presumably returning costs the same. But Bane works on anything, which doesn't have a parallel to Bane (pick one). So it's suffering from poor documentation. And the auto string thing. Unless putting arrows in a quiver is a free action, this means you're stuck with multiple arrows on the string. Manyshot still works, Full attacks don't.

The spell slot mainly matters if you aren't a divine caster. Then you don't have it to give.

Ok, so 6k is fine. But there's still documentation Fail, and not going into quiver Fail. Can we agree on this much?

Edit: Ammo is 1/10th price now? You sure?

No, if you use Rapid Shot, you need five of them if they go into their quiver. 5* (1/50) = 1/10.

[Sunic_Flames]

Thing is it isn't clear what the actual + whatever is. It has a base +1, and presumably returning costs the same. But Bane works on anything, which doesn't have a parallel to Bane (pick one). So it's suffering from poor documentation. And the auto string thing. Unless putting arrows in a quiver is a free action, this means you're stuck with multiple arrows on the string. Manyshot still works, Full attacks don't.

The spell slot mainly matters if you aren't a divine caster. Then you don't have it to give.

Ok, so 6k is fine. But there's still documentation Fail, and not going into quiver Fail. Can we agree on this much?

Edit: Ammo is 1/10th price now? You sure?

No, if you use Rapid Shot, you need five of them if they go into their quiver. 5* (1/50) = 1/10.

Oh. I was assuming 5 because of Haste. 6 then. Fair enough. How the fuck did I forget Rapid Shot existed? *runs to edit statblock*

[bkdubs123]

How the fuck did I forget Rapid Shot existed? *runs to edit statblock*

Somehow I always do too. And I even like Rapid Shot better than Manyshot... most of the time even with Greater Manyshot.

[Sunic_Flames]

And while we're at it, if the relic shit gets ditched so non divines can use the fucking thing effectively regardless of alignment would that warrant a cost boost or no?

[bkdubs123]

Ditch the spell slot part of it too and I'd say no. Really, I want to just say no anyway, but since you want to open it up to everyone it makes sense to ditch the spell slot thing.

[Elennsar]

Should they be open to everyone?

And for that matter, this for any relics.

Nothing wrong with an item that only the Faithful can use in a game where devotion to a God ought to mean something (since the Gods can grant only-to-my-chosen boons).

[Sunic_Flames]

CoDzilla doesn't need a fucking boost. Seriously, go look at a CoDzilla sometime and tell me with a straight face the Gods don't reward their worshippers.

BK: So just as a normal magic item anyone can use to Bane anything and reuse indefinitely, 6,006 is still good?

Now how much of that do you suppose is bonuses? This is important because it determines both how many slots are left available on the thing, and how much each additional bonus costs.

[Elennsar]

Clarify what CoDzilla stands for?

Cleric or Druid + zilla?

Yeah, true. I'd rather not have spell slots power relics if its meant for other people.

I'd treat the infinitely reusable as a +3 or +2 for what it is worth. No idea on bane: Anything.

[dman11235]

Wait...so you want to make a relic, defined as being more usable by followers of a deity, less like what they are supposed to be?  You don't even have to worship the right deity to use it, just be a certain alignment range.  Which can be duplicated.

As for the plus: I know of no ability that makes arrows return.  So that's just a 6,000 gp property.  Same with the bane.  The only actual weapon enhancement on the things is the +1.

[bkdubs123]

Ah, no, what I meant was, lose the burn a spell slot to gain Bane against anything. Which would just make them returning, indestructible, +1 arrows for 6000gp. Sounds reasonable-ish. Especially since you can later enchant them on the cheap. Basically you're getting a +2 weapon out of the deal for cheaper than the price of a +2 weapon, that you can later enchant for even cheaper.

[Sunic_Flames]

If you lose the Bane anything you're basically paying 36k for infinite ammo. Extradimensional storage laughs at you.

The Returning is only different because it works on arrows. It otherwise functions exactly the same. Which brings up the next point...

or if the character has moved since throwing it, the weapon drops to the ground in the square from which it was thrown.

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, telekinesis; Price +1 bonus.

It does actually address this one by stating it 'restrings itself on the bow that fired it' as otherwise this would be Epic Fucking Fail for very obvious reasons.

Now, working out the base bonus. +1 Returning is +2. Bane anything means +2 to hit and +2d6+2 damage vs everything. Obviously this is better than +2/+2. But how about +3/+3? +4/+4? This part matters because it determines how many slots are left (and how much it costs to enchant it, but that's trivial anyways). If infinitely reusable is a +2 (and that isn't that unreasonable actually considering the utility) that results in an arrow with 2-3 slots left.

The idea here is so you don't have to burn a spell slot or feat and don't have to be a certain alignment or UMD it to use it. In other words, mundanes actually get to use the shit made for them instead of it favoring Clerics, Druids, and other random casters.

[Elennsar]

If the goal is to keep them as relics (meaning "for the faithful") instead of just standard items, they should cost a feat or something similar to represent "really dead fething serious dedicated".

Otherwise, any ass can claim that he's pious and we get into a stupid arguement about if he's "pious enough".

If he has the feat, he is. If he doesn't, he isn't.

Now, the fact that the feat otherwise blows (?) can and should be addressed.

[Sunic_Flames]

If the goal is to keep them as relics (meaning "for the faithful") instead of just standard items, they should cost a feat or something similar to represent "really dead fething serious dedicated".

Otherwise, any ass can claim that he's pious and we get into a stupid arguement about if he's "pious enough".

If he has the feat, he is. If he doesn't, he isn't.

Now, the fact that the feat otherwise blows (?) can and should be addressed.

The goal is to turn them into a normal item. Why? Because it's Eberron. Not only are the gods different (is there even a NG archer type in there?), the gods are indifferent. So from a fluff perspective having belief based items doesn't make any sense (even if there were enough high levels to start making relics).

From a mechanical perspective needing a feat to use a fucking item effectively is Epic Fucking Fail. Yes, you could use a spell slot too. But an argument can be easily made that's one spell slot per item (the feat at least applies to all). Have fun running out of Divine Power fuel in a hurry CoDzilla. Needing a feat to use an item effectively is a much milder form of Lich Fail, where you have to make the damn thing for a huge cost, then get crippled by LA. In other words, double whammied. Obviously it's much milder because a feat is less of a cost than 4 caster levels and all the associated goodies.

[bkdubs123]

If you lose the Bane anything you're basically paying 36k for infinite ammo. Extradimensional storage laughs at you.

Not exactly, but I see your point. You're paying 36k for infinite +1 ammo. Or rather, you're paying 36k for six +1 returning weapons. Cheaper than what you'd normally pay for six +1 returning melee weapons, right? Okay, okay, but it's not exactly the same because they're ammunition. But because they're ammunition they can also be enchanted with total awesomeness for WAY cheap, and since they are indestructable... guess what that means?

If you lose the bane part you have 6 arrows for 36036gp. These arrows have a +2 enhancement bonus. Now to enchant 50 arrows to +3 costs 18,000gp. To enchant 5 it costs 1800! To enchant 5 arrows to +10 costs only 20,000!

[dman11235]

They don't have a +2 bkdubs, the returning property on them is different and doesn't exist as a weapon special quality.  It is a flat price added to the arrows.  Same with the Bane thing.  But otherwise spot on.

The goal is to turn them into a normal item. Why? Because it's Eberron. Not only are the gods different (is there even a NG archer type in there?), the gods are indifferent. So from a fluff perspective having belief based items doesn't make any sense (even if there were enough high levels to start making relics).

In that case I'd say up the price of them.  Why?  Because otherwise you are spending a feat or a spell slot to get.  And note: mundanes CAN benefit from the bane part.  Just ask yourself: is getting bane (anything you hit) on your bow worth just a feat?  If not, don't take it.  If yes, take it.  If you want to up the power of the feat let it do something else as well.  Also note: the bane part is the secondary effect.  You only need to be a certain alignment to use the returning, and thus the awesome weapon bonus part of it.

It sounds like you just want this item, and you want it now.  You don't care if it makes sense or if it's balanced, you want it.

From a mechanical perspective needing a feat to use a fucking item effectively is Epic Fucking Fail. Yes, you could use a spell slot too. But an argument can be easily made that's one spell slot per item (the feat at least applies to all). Have fun running out of Divine Power fuel in a hurry CoDzilla. Needing a feat to use an item effectively is a much milder form of Lich Fail, where you have to make the damn thing for a huge cost, then get crippled by LA. In other words, double whammied. Obviously it's much milder because a feat is less of a cost than 4 caster levels and all the associated goodies.

This is part of the relics mechanic.  If you don't like it, change it.*  But first: think about what a relic is.  What it means.  Relics are items (and there's more than just this one) that have an effect if you're the right alignment, and another effect if you worship the correct deity and spend a spell slot (usually 4th....rangers can do this btw...) or a feat.  The first effect one makes it worth the cost and a little more, because of the alignment, like returning arrows (not actually the property, since returning can't be place on ammunition and doesn't bring it back to you no matter what), and the second one is worth a feat or spell slot, like the bane ability.  Personally I think the Raptor Arrows are the best balanced one, with an appropriate cost for the benefit.

Now, working out the base bonus. +1 Returning is +2. Bane anything means +2 to hit and +2d6+2 damage vs everything. Obviously this is better than +2/+2. But how about +3/+3? +4/+4? This part matters because it determines how many slots are left (and how much it costs to enchant it, but that's trivial anyways). If infinitely reusable is a +2 (and that isn't that unreasonable actually considering the utility) that results in an arrow with 2-3 slots left.

This is just stupid.  Bane (anything) isn't a weapon property I have seen in any book, nor is Returning Arrow That Goes to your Bow and Doesn't get Destroyed.  The only weapon property on the arrows out of the box is +1.  You have 9 left to work with pre-epic.  This costs 3960 to make +10, so 9966/arrow, so for a full attack that's 59,796 for 6 (haste+rapidshot), or 49830 for just rapidshot.  Added on to a +10 bow: 200,300+cost of the bow is 250,000 about for a +18 weapon, add in a level 3 spell slot for +23.  Add in a feat or level 4 spell slot for a +23 with bane (everything).

*Change the relic mechanic for everything, not just this one specific relic.