Factotum's Brains over Brawn

[JaronK]

DC 20 is nothing at the level you can pull that off.  Better to just buy a god damn bow of the solars.

You can do it effectively by level 10 (or by 11, if you want to save feats by taking a Binder 1 dip with Improved Binding).  At that level, any class leveled NPC with a bad fort save has +3 fort save before con modifiers.  With a good fort save, it's +7 before con.  That's going to devastate such character easily if they don't have poison immunity.  And note that you don't actually need all those feats to make it work... any Factotum can do it with a single rank in Craft (Poison) and the Poison Use ability or Master of Poison feat.

Meanwhile, it's less effective against monsters, but still nasty enough... a single failed save will seriously screw them over.

Furthermore, DC 20 is equivalent to a 10th level Wizard casting his highest level spells with an Int of 20.  In a low optimization game, that's pretty reasonable, and even a high optimization game isn't going to have much over 20 as his DC (I'd usually have 23).  Plus there's feats to raise the DC if that's the route you need to take.

And finally, it doesn't need to be Black Lotus poison.  There are other poisons with higher DCs, such as Dragon Bile (DC 26, 3d6 strength damage, which in two shots drops a lot of enemies and is great if you need to take someone alive).

So yeah, it works fine, and the idea that DC 20 is "nothing" at level 10 is rediculous.

JaronK

[Ubernoob]

I was going to go into a long post nitpicking, but I'll let the word practicality sum up my problems with the suggestion.

[JaronK]

What is impractical there?  You purchase the ingredients to make a single dose.  Purchasing the ingredients may be a little more difficult than some... but you're a Factotum, you've got the necessary skills (Gather Information, Diplomacy, or whatever) to locate a source and make the purchase.  Then you craft the dose (again, easy.  You're a Factotum).  Then you use Minor Creation to equip yourself for a full day using just a small amount of that one dose.

There is nothing impractical about that, and the only part of the equation that requires any special ability that any given Factotum might not have is needing poison use somehow.

JaronK

[Ubernoob]

Average fort save at CR 10 is 12.  Average fort save at CR 12 (a much more reasonable level due to not wanting to burn two feats) is 15.

Now, an optimized character is supposed to cakewalk through equal CR=average party level.  This means that cakewalking through a single CR 10 enemy at level 10 is not only expected, but nothing new.  Now, say you were taking on a bigger threat (say, CR 14 for fort save of 16) has a reasonable chance of beating your DC 20 so you have to not only shoot, but hit it 4 times for a 50% chance to kill it even if it is susceptible to ranged attacks and poisons.

So, at the very least black lotus isn't a major threat even if you assume the 3d6 con damage outright kills it (lots of monsters have huge con).

Now, on top of that we are either spending a level and two feats or three levels.  That's just plain impractical on a factotum.


Basically, poison mechanics blow for PCs in 3.5 unless you use DotU (for poison master).  Poison is just kind of underwhelming in RAW.  There are fixes to make it usable, but that's either heavy opt w/ dumpster diving or houserule.

[JaronK]

Average fort save at CR 10 is 12.  Average fort save at CR 12 (a much more reasonable level due to not wanting to burn two feats) is 15.

Where do you get these numbers?  Is that for monsters or for PC classed characters?  That looks like potencial numbers for MM1 monsters only... PC classed opponents are usually FAR lower than that.

That's still going to be lethal at 10, and since we're firing two shots even the guys with +15 are looking at a one third chance of failing a save for every two arrows fired at them.  Failing one leaves them far less resistant to further shots.

Now, an optimized character is supposed to cakewalk through equal CR=average party level.  This means that cakewalking through a single CR 10 enemy at level 10 is not only expected, but nothing new.  Now, say you were taking on a bigger threat (say, CR 14 for fort save of 16) has a reasonable chance of beating your DC 20 so you have to not only shoot, but hit it 4 times for a 50% chance to kill it even if it is susceptible to ranged attacks and poisons.

If we're really optmizing it, take the appropriate feat to raise the DC of the poison (goes up by 2, IIRC).  That will help.  Or, again, using another poison.  And remember, if we're talking about something 4 higher than your level, it's probably single enemies, or at least low numbers.  That's easy for a Factotum to take on.

So, at the very least black lotus isn't a major threat even if you assume the 3d6 con damage outright kills it (lots of monsters have huge con).

3d6 con damage either kills, or leaves the target so susceptable that the next shot finishes the job most of the time (since, on average, that's a -5 to their next fort save).  Again, we're talking about a Factotum here... if you fire two shots and only the second lands, just take another standard action for two more shots (three at higher levels) and finish the job.  Remember, all of this can be done from hiding, potencially in the surprise round. 

Basically, poison mechanics blow for PCs in 3.5 unless you use DotU (for poison master).  Poison is just kind of underwhelming in RAW.  There are fixes to make it usable, but that's either heavy opt w/ dumpster diving or houserule.

Well, again, I did suggest using DotU, though Master of Poisons isn't needed for an archer using Malphas as he gives Poison Use anyway and you can poison your arrows in advance.  It's venomous strike that raises the DCs (though note you have to sneak attack with it to make this work).  Poison, like many tactics in D&D, requires optimizing to make it useful, and like many tactics was upgraded in later books when it was realized that it was underpowered.  DotU was the book that fixed up feinting, poison use, hand crossbow usage, and fear, so generally it's good to look there if you plan to use poison.  But the combination of the ability to create large quantities cheaply, plus the ability to fire again if the first shot fails, with all the other abilities that go so well with the assassin concept makes Factotums one of the best at it, and capable of making it actually a viable tactic.  Still, I find Tome of Magic (for Malphas) to be a lot more useful than DotU for this particular concept, since it lets you snipe from outside a normal range.

That's the whole thing here... you're forcing enemies to make a lot of saves, and if they make them you can just fire again.

I'd honestly do this with Binder 1/Factotum X, using Improved Binding, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Manyshot.  Flaws would obviously help (I said this one is feat intensive).  However, that gives you a lot of useful abilities.  Not only do you have this nice poison trick... you can also use any other 1st or 2nd level vestiges, keeping your usual Factotum flexibility.  If you don't feel like doing the poison thing, you're still basically an archer Factotum with some nifty other abilities, and you can just switch over to Naberious or other vestiges when that seems like a good idea.

JaronK

[Ubernoob]

Where do you get these numbers?  Is that for monsters or for PC classed characters?  That looks like potencial numbers for MM1 monsters only... PC classed opponents are usually FAR lower than that.

That's still going to be lethal at 10, and since we're firing two shots even the guys with +15 are looking at a one third chance of failing a save for every two arrows fired at them.  Failing one leaves them far less resistant to further shots.

Optimization by the numbers.  PC classes are also far more likely to be immune to poisons or ability damage due to equipment.  Being lethal at level 10 *doesn't matter* because four shots should have killed someone anyways from class abilities alone.

If we're really optmizing it, take the appropriate feat to raise the DC of the poison (goes up by 2, IIRC).  That will help.  Or, again, using another poison.  And remember, if we're talking about something 4 higher than your level, it's probably single enemies, or at least low numbers.  That's easy for a Factotum to take on.

Not saying that's a bad  idea, but that it's a *lot* of resources invested into something that can be circumvented one level after the minimum level you can pull it off (probably sooner outside of core).  Not to mention the sheer number of creatures immune to poison or with insane fort saves.  It's pretty damn niche for that sort of investment.

As always, practicality in play is a concern.

3d6 con damage either kills, or leaves the target so susceptable that the next shot finishes the job most of the time (since, on average, that's a -5 to their next fort save).  Again, we're talking about a Factotum here... if you fire two shots and only the second lands, just take another standard action for two more shots (three at higher levels) and finish the job.  Remember, all of this can be done from hiding, potencially in the surprise round.

That's what I was getting at.  3d6 con damage is nice, but in the end it doesn't work against a lot of creatures.

That's the whole thing here... you're forcing enemies to make a lot of saves, and if they make them you can just fire again.

That's why I gave the 50% LD.  Forcing the enemy to make a lot of saves doesn't really matter if you had better odds doing something else.

I'd honestly do this with Binder 1/Factotum X, using Improved Binding, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Manyshot.  Flaws would obviously help (I said this one is feat intensive).  However, that gives you a lot of useful abilities.  Not only do you have this nice poison trick... you can also use any other 1st or 2nd level vestiges, keeping your usual Factotum flexibility.  If you don't feel like doing the poison thing, you're still basically an archer Factotum with some nifty other abilities, and you can just switch over to Naberious or other vestiges when that seems like a good idea.

In that case you're pretty damn short on FoI so don't have the standard actions to get extra arrows.  Since you don't have full bab either you lose out on arrows as well.

In short, this is better done by other classes.  Much better done.

Why can't you just understand that I actually know what the fuck I'm talking about every time I post?

[JaronK]

Optimization by the numbers.  PC classes are also far more likely to be immune to poisons or ability damage due to equipment.  Being lethal at level 10 *doesn't matter* because four shots should have killed someone anyways from class abilities alone.

If four shots kills anyway, then Factotums are gods, since they can easily put four shots into enemies in the surprise round.  Personally, I don't buy it.  And what I've seen is that PC classed people are rarely actually immune to poison... the only ones I've seen in a long time were some of my Dread Necromancer's creations.  Other than that, poison immunity seems very rare, limited only to people high enough to afford regular Hero's Feasts who also have a character that can cast it.

Not saying that's a bad  idea, but that it's a *lot* of resources invested into something that can be circumvented one level after the minimum level you can pull it off (probably sooner outside of core).  Not to mention the sheer number of creatures immune to poison or with insane fort saves.  It's pretty damn niche for that sort of investment.

Obviously, campaign dependency can be an issue... if you're fighting a ton of immunes or enemies with very high fort saves, that's an issue.  But remember... Black Lotus is just one example.  And as level goes up, sure the resists get harder to punch through... but at the same time, you can start affording things like a Splitting bow (double the saves required).  Heck, you might be able to get that DotU feat that forces people to make their second poison save immediately at the cost of a rebuke attempt (AoE effect) forcing even more.  They'll fail.

In that case you're pretty damn short on FoI so don't have the standard actions to get extra arrows.  Since you don't have full bab either you lose out on arrows as well.

Like I said, it's feat intensive, so flaws are needed to make it work well.  But it can certainly work.  The build I suggested uses four feats by level 10... a human with two flaws has 7 to work with at that level.  Three Fonts is plenty, I'd say. 

In short, this is better done by other classes.  Much better done.

Like whom? 

Why can't you just understand that I actually know what the fuck I'm talking about every time I post?

Because you've never played a Factotum before, and admitted as much.  You're going off what you heard from someone else.  You're also making statements like "DC 20 is nothing" at level 10, without realizing that DC 20 is the save DC that a lot of Wizards will be having at that level on their attack spells, or that four shots kills anyway.  You're making blanket statements assuming a heck of a lot, mostly assuming that because something doesn't work if you half ass it or do it wrong, it can't work if you put your mind to it.

Perhaps it's for the same reason you can't understand that I actually know what I'm talking about, and am speaking from experience most of the time instead of just repeating what I've heard elsewhere?  For example, I know that my Dread Necromancer at 8 has no trouble with making his DC 19 fear aura stick (and yes, at level 10 he'll have a DC of 20), and that the party Ninja is able to make good use of Drow Sleep Poison, which has a MUCH lower DC (though that's in a campaign that has mostly PC classed opponents).  You're basically coming in and saying "what you've seen can't work, because I say so and someone else told me, why don't you believe me?"

Look, I'm aware of the difficulties in using poison.  The DC thing is the hardest issue, while the cost to create and the immunties are also annoying, and the fact that fortitude is the highest save (on average) sucks too.  However, I also know it can be made to work.  Now, this can be via save reducers (fear, PoT auras, etc) or just hitting so many times that it lands, or using more powerful poisons.  But it can work, I've seen it work... I'm just applying those concepts to a class that does it far better than most.  So, if you want to play a poison based assassin, or a sniper, the Factotum is clearly very effective at it, mostly due to the combination of great stealth, extra standard actions, and minor creation.  Plus, when it doesn't work, you're still one of the most flexible classes around... just Iajuitsu Focus the pesky enemy, or help make your shots count with Greater Magic Weapon, or whatever.

JaronK

[Ubernoob]

Optimization by the numbers.  PC classes are also far more likely to be immune to poisons or ability damage due to equipment.  Being lethal at level 10 *doesn't matter* because four shots should have killed someone anyways from class abilities alone.

If four shots kills anyway, then Factotums are gods, since they can easily put four shots into enemies in the surprise round.  Personally, I don't buy it.  And what I've seen is that PC classed people are rarely actually immune to poison... the only ones I've seen in a long time were some of my Dread Necromancer's creations.  Other than that, poison immunity seems very rare, limited only to people high enough to afford regular Hero's Feasts who also have a character that can cast it.

Sneak attack, much?

Not saying that's a bad  idea, but that it's a *lot* of resources invested into something that can be circumvented one level after the minimum level you can pull it off (probably sooner outside of core).  Not to mention the sheer number of creatures immune to poison or with insane fort saves.  It's pretty damn niche for that sort of investment.

Obviously, campaign dependency can be an issue... if you're fighting a ton of immunes or enemies with very high fort saves, that's an issue.  But remember... Black Lotus is just one example.  And as level goes up, sure the resists get harder to punch through... but at the same time, you can start affording things like a Splitting bow (double the saves required).  Heck, you might be able to get that DotU feat that forces people to make their second poison save immediately at the cost of a rebuke attempt (AoE effect) forcing even more.  They'll fail.

You're turning into a one trick pony.

In that case you're pretty damn short on FoI so don't have the standard actions to get extra arrows.  Since you don't have full bab either you lose out on arrows as well.

Like I said, it's feat intensive, so flaws are needed to make it work well.  But it can certainly work.  The build I suggested uses four feats by level 10... a human with two flaws has 7 to work with at that level.  Three Fonts is plenty, I'd say. 

One trick pony, much?

In short, this is better done by other classes.  Much better done.

Like whom? 

Why can't you just understand that I actually know what the fuck I'm talking about every time I post?

Because you've never played a Factotum before, and admitted as much.  You're going off what you heard from someone else.  You're also making statements like "DC 20 is nothing" at level 10, without realizing that DC 20 is the save DC that a lot of Wizards will be having at that level on their attack spells, or that four shots kills anyway.  You're making blanket statements assuming a heck of a lot, mostly assuming that because something doesn't work if you half ass it or do it wrong, it can't work if you put your mind to it.

Take a good guess as to the number of classes I'm considered an expert at without ever finishing a single combat with them?  Saying that you've never played it isn't actually a valid complaint against someone of my skill level because I haven't played the majority of classes.  I can literally eyeball the power level of any class in about ten minutes.

Perhaps it's for the same reason you can't understand that I actually know what I'm talking about, and am speaking from experience most of the time instead of just repeating what I've heard elsewhere?  For example, I know that my Dread Necromancer at 8 has no trouble with making his DC 19 fear aura stick (and yes, at level 10 he'll have a DC of 20), and that the party Ninja is able to make good use of Drow Sleep Poison, which has a MUCH lower DC (though that's in a campaign that has mostly PC classed opponents).  You're basically coming in and saying "what you've seen can't work, because I say so and someone else told me, why don't you believe me?"

Are you familiar with the difference between induction and deduction?

Look, I'm aware of the difficulties in using poison.  The DC thing is the hardest issue, while the cost to create and the immunties are also annoying, and the fact that fortitude is the highest save (on average) sucks too.  However, I also know it can be made to work.  Now, this can be via save reducers (fear, PoT auras, etc) or just hitting so many times that it lands, or using more powerful poisons.  But it can work, I've seen it work... I'm just applying those concepts to a class that does it far better than most.  So, if you want to play a poison based assassin, or a sniper, the Factotum is clearly very effective at it, mostly due to the combination of great stealth, extra standard actions, and minor creation.  Plus, when it doesn't work, you're still one of the most flexible classes around... just Iajuitsu Focus the pesky enemy, or help make your shots count with Greater Magic Weapon, or whatever.

JaronK

Yeah, one trick pony != practical.

Yeah... your logic is weak.

[Kaelik]

JaronK, it's nice to say "poison usually works" but the problem is you are devoting about 75% of your disposable resources into something that works about 60% of the time.

So if they are poison immune you just Iajitsu focus them? Really? And do you have a quickrazor with the skillful enchantment on it? Because if you don't, then you only get one attack, and one Iajitsu attack isn't going to make a great deal of effect.

Yes, you aren't useless without your trick, but you are significantly less effective, less effective then a Warblade/Rogue/Crusader/Caster of any kind (even the Shugena or Ardent style).

Notice that the subset of poison immunes is equal to the subset of Sneak Attack immunes + Others. For someone who complains that Rogues aren't versatile enough because they can be negated if they don't have access to items, it seems odd that you would build a character that is largely ineffective against anything a Rogue has any problems with and several other types.

(I know this isn't your favorite Factotum, just one example, but all the same, Uber's accusations of one trick pony ring kinda true when you are dedicating so much to a single method of attack. Including at most levels, your highest level SLA.)

Honestly, if you go through the trouble of buying a splitting bow, and pour feats into manyshot, you are better off just not putting any ranks in Iajitsu and going full hog on arrowed death. And at that point, you are a Fighter with lower BAB fewer feats, and inspiration, which may or may not make enough of a difference, at least against anything poison immune.

Frankly, the most annoying thing about this post is that you declare Rogues are balls terrible for not being able to deal with undead/elementals/constructs/ect. And then propose a build that fails against all those things, and things with high fort saves, and things with immunity but not to SA. And you justify it with "Those things hardly ever come up!"

[JaronK]

Uber, you don't know the class, which is the only explanation I can give for someone claiming that a Factotum who dedicated 3 feats to a single trick a "one trick pony" when the other 4 feats are totally flexible (3 Fonts and the Binder bit).  That same Factotum that I just talked about can do everything I've stated other Factotums can do. 

That is not a one trick pony.  That is one option for a very flexible class.  What you're stating is the same as stating that a Wizard is a one trick pony if he specializes in Necromancy, gets Corpse Crafter and Destructive Retribution, and buys a bunch of Onyxs.

JaronK, it's nice to say "poison usually works" but the problem is you are devoting about 75% of your disposable resources into something that works about 60% of the time.

I'll grant you that it's using a lot of resources on something that might prove useless a noticeable amount of time.  However, you've still got tons of other options when it doesn't work.  Undead are a common poison immune, for example, and you can turn them.  Furthermore, it's very strong when it does work, which is noticeable.

So if they are poison immune you just Iajitsu focus them? Really? And do you have a quickrazor with the skillful enchantment on it? Because if you don't, then you only get one attack, and one Iajitsu attack isn't going to make a great deal of effect.

You could do that (it's what I was thinking).  Also, remember that, being a Factotum, you can sheath a weapon as a free standard action, then draw it again, so an Eager (insert your favorite weapon here) would also work... it's not quite as good, but it's cheaper, which is good for a backup weapon.  Also, you can do all the other tricks I've talked about like dropping crowd control spells and the like.

Yes, you aren't useless without your trick, but you are significantly less effective, less effective then a Warblade/Rogue/Crusader/Caster of any kind (even the Shugena or Ardent style).

Compared to the Rogue?  No no, leave him out of that list.  You are weaker against poison immunes, he's weaker against sneak attack immunes.  No difference there.  Likewise, I'm sure you didn't mean Warmages and Healers when you said caster of any kind, right?  Meanwhile, you can still pull off stuff like Animate Dead, which if used well (i.e. with good critters to raise) is extremely effective.  Or play with explosive runes, or whatever.  And of course you're still a skillmonkey with all the abilities that brings... and better than a Rogue at it.

Notice that the subset of poison immunes is equal to the subset of Sneak Attack immunes + Others. For someone who complains that Rogues aren't versatile enough because they can be negated if they don't have access to items, it seems odd that you would build a character that is largely ineffective against anything a Rogue has any problems with and several other types.

Again, you're not nearly as weak when dealing with poison immunity as a Rogue dealing with sneak attack issues.

(I know this isn't your favorite Factotum, just one example, but all the same, Uber's accusations of one trick pony ring kinda true when you are dedicating so much to a single method of attack. Including at most levels, your highest level SLA.)

It's clearly more specialized than my normal type.  But calling it one trick... that's rediculous.  We're talking about a character who can still cast any Sorc/Wiz spell level 4 or below, who can use any skill and often use them at levels that would make a comperable Rogue cry, who can use far more combat actions when they need, and so on.

Honestly, if you go through the trouble of buying a splitting bow, and pour feats into manyshot, you are better off just not putting any ranks in Iajitsu and going full hog on arrowed death. And at that point, you are a Fighter with lower BAB fewer feats, and inspiration, which may or may not make enough of a difference, at least against anything poison immune.

That would work too.  I was just thinking that you might as well keep the Iajuitsu as a possible technique.  If nothing else, it's great for breaking objects, which can be a very handy ability for a skill monkey, so I really like it.  Certainly, by the time you're actually buying splitting, it's worth investing in archery a bit more, but that was above the level being talked about right now.  Woodland Archery is a favorite of mine.

Frankly, the most annoying thing about this post is that you declare Rogues are balls terrible for not being able to deal with undead/elementals/constructs/ect. And then propose a build that fails against all those things, and things with high fort saves, and things with immunity but not to SA. And you justify it with "Those things hardly ever come up!"

See, that's the thing.  Undead?  Turn them.  Constructs?  You can ignore their hardness.  Elementals?  That's the only one you just mentioned where you don't already have special abilities against them.  You're a Factotum... you can actually afford to give up a little flexibility, and you're still fine.  Also, note that I never said anything like "those things hardly ever come up."  I specifically said this version would have a weakness against poison immunes, making it more campaign specific than many Factotums.

But seriously, if we ignore the archery entirely on this character concept, he's still got a wide variety of abilities.  I was approaching this mostly from the perspective of trying to make a build for the character concept of "poison based sniper assassin" something that is otherwise tough to make viable, and the Factotum class does it really well without actually becoming a one trick pony that's helpless against immunes. 

JaronK

[Ubernoob]

Uber, you don't know the class, which is the only explanation I can give for someone claiming that a Factotum who dedicated 3 feats to a single trick a "one trick pony" when the other 4 feats are totally flexible (3 Fonts and the Binder bit).  That same Factotum that I just talked about can do everything I've stated other Factotums can do.

That is not a one trick pony.  That is one option for a very flexible class.  What you're stating is the same as stating that a Wizard is a one trick pony if he specializes in Necromancy, gets Corpse Crafter and Destructive Retribution, and buys a bunch of Onyxs.

No.  He can't.  He literally does not have the feats to take darkstalker or FoI enough to actually standard action nova.  He doesn't have the gold for other things either due to how expensive splitting bows are.

Please, stop lying.  I've never lied to you and you insist on lying to and about me.  Please, stop it.

[JaronK]

No.  He can't.  He literally does not have the feats to take darkstalker or FoI enough to actually standard action nova.  He doesn't have the gold for other things either due to how expensive splitting bows are.

I didn't say he'd take Darkstalker, nor have I said that Darkstalker was something all Factotums have, so that's irrelevant, though I'd expect that to be the level 12 feat.  Still, as a long range sniper you don't need Darkstalker as much because the extra detection methods don't have such range.  I've also never suggested doing full on standard action Novas... the build I just gave could get up to three extra standard actions per encounter, which I think is enough to be reasonable.

Furthermore, I said he could get splitting bows "in the future" not at level 10, so wealth isn't an issue.

Please, stop lying.  I've never lied to you and you insist on lying to and about me.  Please, stop it.

Yes you have.  Most recently as your alt The Godhead when you claimed that I said Factotums could get 32 standard actions and had then edited the reference when called on it, despite the fact that I've never talked about them getting more than 2-3 extra actions in a combat.  Kaelik then verified that he was the one who'd said it, and that your talk about calling me on it was a complete fabrication.  I also never edit posts when called on something.  Or is your memory getting so poor?  Does that most recent case need to be linked?

Meanwhile, I haven't lied about a darn thing.

JaronK

[Ubernoob]

No.  He can't.  He literally does not have the feats to take darkstalker or FoI enough to actually standard action nova.  He doesn't have the gold for other things either due to how expensive splitting bows are.

I didn't say he'd take Darkstalker, nor have I said that Darkstalker was something all Factotums have, so that's irrelevant, though I'd expect that to be the level 12 feat.  Still, as a long range sniper you don't need Darkstalker as much because the extra detection methods don't have such range.  I've also never suggested doing full on standard action Novas... the build I just gave could get up to three extra standard actions per encounter, which I think is enough to be reasonable.

Furthermore, I said he could get splitting bows "in the future" not at level 10, so wealth isn't an issue.

Practicality.

Please, stop lying.  I've never lied to you and you insist on lying to and about me.  Please, stop it.

Yes you have.  Most recently as your alt The Godhead when you claimed that I said Factotums could get 32 standard actions and had then edited the reference when called on it, despite the fact that I've never talked about them getting more than 2-3 extra actions in a combat.  Kaelik then verified that he was the one who'd said it, and that your talk about calling me on it was a complete fabrication.  I also never edit posts when called on something.  Or is your memory getting so poor?  Does that most recent case need to be linked?

Meanwhile, I haven't lied about a darn thing.

JaronK

Please, cut the delusions and learn the difference between a bluff and a lie.  Feint, bluff, hyperbole != lie.

BTW, DoW

[JaronK]

A bluff?  You call stating a complete falsehood, stated by an alt that you were pretending wasn't yourself (also deceit) a "bluff?"  A "feint?"  You've gone right off the deep end.

Oh, and the last time I was accused of lying it was for saying you think the Factotum is a one trick pony.  You just called a Factotum with 3 fonts and Improved Binding with a binder dip a one trick pony, re-verifying the position.

Meanwhile, you're back to your standard arguement style of stating one word non-sequitters as though you've got an arguement.  You don't.

JaronK

[EjoThims]

Please, cut the delusions and learn the difference between a bluff and a lie.  Feint, bluff, hyperbole != lie.

Actually yes, they are a lie if you intentionally state something you know to be false, especially if you do so with the intention to mislead.

Now, 'half-truths' and implications and such, while being deceptive, are not necessarily lies, as it is entirely possible to lead someone into believing a falsehood without ever actually stating anything that's not true.

[Ubernoob]

Please, cut the delusions and learn the difference between a bluff and a lie.  Feint, bluff, hyperbole != lie.

Actually yes, they are a lie if you intentionally state something you know to be false, especially if you do so with the intention to mislead.

Now, 'half-truths' and implications and such, while being deceptive, are not necessarily lies, as it is entirely possible to lead someone into believing a falsehood without ever actually stating anything that's not true.

Thank you, EjoThims.  It seems you understand very well.  Nice elaboration.

[EjoThims]

Thank you, EjoThims.  It seems you understand very well.  Nice elaboration.

I've gone since I was 10 trying my best to never seriously lie again (I don't consider an obvious lie as a joke a serious lie), but I love deceiving too much to give it up.

My favorite way to deceive is to outright tell the full, 100% direct truth, but to do it in such a way that people assume I'm lying. 

[Ubernoob]

Thank you, EjoThims.  It seems you understand very well.  Nice elaboration.

I've gone since I was 10 trying my best to never seriously lie again (I don't consider an obvious lie as a joke a serious lie), but I love deceiving too much to give it up.

My favorite way to deceive is to outright tell the full, 100% direct truth, but to do it in such a way that people assume I'm lying. 

Dude, you are so much win.

BTW, I gave fu for that elaboration.  Really, way to word it.

[EjoThims]

Dude, you are so much win.

BTW, I gave fu for that elaboration.  Really, way to word it.

 

Despite what's been going on in this thread and others, I do still hold you (and Jaron as well) in high respect, so that means a lot to me.

[JaronK]

Actually yes, they are a lie if you intentionally state something you know to be false, especially if you do so with the intention to mislead.

Which he's done twice in recent memory.  The bit about 32 standard actions and claiming I was editing old posts when called on it was an absolute lie, something Kaelik can confirm if he cares to (or I could link it).

And posting as Godhead, pretending not to be Archrpwr, specifically referencing Archer as a different person (deleted by a mod shortly after).

Meanwhile, Kaelik accused me of lying about Uber thinking Factotums were one trick ponies... I wonder if he wants to maintain that position now.

JaronK