Please help me build something around a vague idea.

[Omen of Peace]

What you want to understand is that in epic, the Incantatrix is the king of gishes.

I don't know - honestly Swiftblades are rather awesome.

The only thing that fights better is a cleric with an incantatrix cohort. As in, the Cleric Archivist takes the cake with mostly everything in epic.

Fixed that for you. (Time Stop, Foresight, persisted Choose Destiny, persisted Shapechange, etc...)

[Ubernoob]

What you want to understand is that in epic, the Incantatrix is the king of gishes.

I don't know - honestly Swiftblades are rather awesome.

Swiftblades are very awesome.  However, they are less powerful at the start.  Divine power gish rewards quicker than swiftblade.

Since the OP is starting level 8ish last I checked the Incantgish is stronger at the start and has plenty of room to grow.

Remember kids, there is no wrong time for incantatrix.  Now, if he wanted to play a swiftblade rather than the most hardcore caster he can, then going something like Wiz 6/ SB 10/ Unseen Seer 4/ Incantatrix into epic would be *very* playable.  However, it packs less of a punch at level 8.

[Omen of Peace]

Swiftblades are very awesome.  However, they are less powerful at the start.  Divine power gish rewards quicker than swiftblade.

Since the OP is starting level 8ish last I checked the Incantgish is stronger at the start and has plenty of room to grow.

Remember kids, there is no wrong time for incantatrix.  Now, if he wanted to play a swiftblade rather than the most hardcore caster he can, then going something like Wiz 6/ SB 10/ Unseen Seer 4/ Incantatrix into epic would be *very* playable.  However, it packs less of a punch at level 8.

I agree with everything you said.

Well, except for calling me kid, kid.

[Brainpiercing]

What you want to understand is that in epic, the Incantatrix is the king of gishes.

I don't know - honestly Swiftblades are rather awesome.

Persisted spells >>> free hastes. Plus, in epic you can easily do both.

The only thing that fights better is a cleric with an incantatrix cohort. As in, the Cleric Archivist takes the cake with mostly everything in epic.

Fixed that for you. (Time Stop, Foresight, persisted Choose Destiny, persisted Shapechange, etc...)

And, um, where does the cleric lose in that comparison? You need to pick the right domains, of course and get any of the spontaneous domain feats. Plus you forgot the most important spells: Permanent Emanation (Greater consumptive Field) and Persisted Owl's Insight (via Hierophant).

[Omen of Peace]

Persisted spells >>> free hastes. Plus, in epic you can easily do both.

Arguable. Extra actions >> a bunch of buffs (here I'm moving the frame of reference a bit: since below you're abusing GCF I'm guessing Epic Spellcasting as-is is in, which means the Swiftblade also has all the buffs he needs).

And, um, where does the cleric lose in that comparison? You need to pick the right domains, of course and get any of the spontaneous domain feats. Plus you forgot the most important spells: Permanent Emanation (Greater consumptive Field) and Persisted Owl's Insight (via Hierophant).

GCF is Evil and so not always usable (even some Neutral clerics will balk at killing live creatures to increase their power). The point is that the Cleric has to choose his domains (a limited number even with a bunch of PrCs) and only has a limited number of Miracles to emulate Druid/Bard/... spells :  so he will end up losing out, whereas the Archivist can get Turn Undead easily - the most important Cleric class feature.

I guess the Artificer can come out on top of both of them.

[ninjarabbit]

If you're going to go the incantgish route with the War domain you might want to take a level of archmage if you can work the feats in, the SLA higher arcane lets you get around the 1/day limitation of arcane disciple in case your divine power ever gets dispelled.

[Ubernoob]

If you're going to go the incantgish route with the War domain you might want to take a level of archmage if you can work the feats in, the SLA higher arcane lets you get around the 1/day limitation of arcane disciple in case your divine power ever gets dispelled.

That's what shadowcraft miracles from first level slots are for.

[Rebel7284]

That's what shadowcraft miracles from first level slots are for.

First level slots?  Do tell how one would do that.  Last I checked, shadowcraft mage still needs level 8 slots even with sanctum spell BS.

[Ubernoob]

That's what shadowcraft miracles from first level slots are for.

First level slots?  Do tell how one would do that.  Last I checked, shadowcraft mage still needs level 8 slots even with sanctum spell BS.

Residual Magic(CM).

[Brainpiercing]

Persisted spells >>> free hastes. Plus, in epic you can easily do both.

Arguable. Extra actions >> a bunch of buffs (here I'm moving the frame of reference a bit: since below you're abusing GCF I'm guessing Epic Spellcasting as-is is in, which means the Swiftblade also has all the buffs he needs).

And, um, where does the cleric lose in that comparison? You need to pick the right domains, of course and get any of the spontaneous domain feats. Plus you forgot the most important spells: Permanent Emanation (Greater consumptive Field) and Persisted Owl's Insight (via Hierophant).

GCF is Evil and so not always usable (even some Neutral clerics will balk at killing live creatures to increase their power). The point is that the Cleric has to choose his domains (a limited number even with a bunch of PrCs) and only has a limited number of Miracles to emulate Druid/Bard/... spells :  so he will end up losing out, whereas the Archivist can get Turn Undead easily - the most important Cleric class feature.

I guess the Artificer can come out on top of both of them.

Probably you're right with everything. The good guys get the shaft, as usually .

However, I think with the tremendous power Clerics get already, the Archivist is just a small step ahead, just for convenience. I know too little about Artificers (due to them being Eberon), but I guess you could be right about that, too.
The only thing that still wins out for cheesiness is, as Uber pointed out, the SCM.

[Sunic_Flames]

All of the Big 5 are about the same power because they all end up casting off each other's lists anyways.

[Ubernoob]

All of the Big 5 are about the same power because they all end up casting off each other's lists anyways.

Assuming you nerf spellcasting from shapechanging (one of the assumptions in my tier thread just to make the game function) they only cast a few spells off each other's lists (wyrm wizard/SCM for miracle to pick up shit or just having it on the list).

Archivist casting is more useful endgame than the cleric headstart on turning and domains.  I'd still pick cleric under level 10 or any time I didn't feel like the headache of a prayerbook though.

[Omen of Peace]

Probably you're right with everything. The good guys get the shaft, as usually .

They do have a few cool things like the Luminous Armors and a few other good Sanctified spells. But yeah, evil wins.

However, I think with the tremendous power Clerics get already, the Archivist is just a small step ahead, just for convenience.

Agreed. That was the nit-picker in me.

The only thing that still wins out for cheesiness is, as Uber pointed out, the SCM.

Which Archivists easily qualify for. Clerics can do it too with a bit more work.

But yeah Archivist in a very open game is a huge invitation to dumpster-diving. Remember when I found that semi-official online PrC that allows to use psionic powers as divine spells, ubernoob ? 

[Ubernoob]

But yeah Archivist in a very open game is a huge invitation to dumpster-diving. Remember when I found that semi-official online PrC that allows to use psionic powers as divine spells, ubernoob ? 

*shudder*

[BowenSilverclaw]

Linky or explanation please?
I happen to have a very open DM

[Sunic_Flames]

Use Magic Device says hi to alignment restrictions.

[Omen of Peace]

The Monastic Servant of Auppenser is a semi-official Web Enhancement for Lost Empires of Faerun (yes, the wonder that gave us Greenbound Summoning, the Mythal seed, etc...).