Author Topic: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers  (Read 23738 times)

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Ubernoob

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2008, 10:32:27 PM »
I dunno about you, but I can think of FAAAR more scarring things than Rape.  IMO any truly evil entity will have more imagination than me.  Rape really is just the start for something truly evil.
I think that depends in part on the particulars of the victim.  For some, rape's much higher up on the list of horrible things that can happen to them; some would say it's easier to get over than some other abuses.

In this case, again, remember, the torturers are most likely female.
In my experience Women are actually better at inflicting lasting psychological harm than men.  If I, who am both male and sheltered by modern society, can come up with a torture regimen that only begins with rape then drow priestesses should sure as hell be able to get worse.
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bkdubs123

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2008, 10:34:43 PM »
Okay, Uber, you think rape is just where it starts. Where do you go from there?

Ubernoob

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2008, 10:40:02 PM »
Okay, Uber, you think rape is just where it starts. Where do you go from there?
Basic physical torture => rez + heal => rape (several times) => heal => forced to slay an innocent creature (bonus points if it is a unicorn) => possession and various evil acts (consorting with devils etc) => more physical torture => forced to slay something innocent (bonus points if an outsider:good) => public sacrifice of paladin.

We've got at least a week of stuff in there.  Torture, sleep deprivation, and repeated verbal assaults are assumed throughout the duration.  If I listed torture that's just a more intense period.

That's just off the top of my head.  They have MAGIC and can violate so much more than the body.

A general guideline for torture technique is to ask what Anubis would do in SG1 if he captured one of the team.  He has access to torture implements that are beyond human comprehension and the ability to forcibly bring the subject back to life.  That's the kind of stuff you have to think of, but D&D has it even better with spells.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2008, 10:46:14 PM by Ubernoob »
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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2008, 10:48:43 PM »
Okay, Uber, you think rape is just where it starts. Where do you go from there?
Basic physical torture => rez + heal => rape (several times) => heal => forced to slay an innocent creature (bonus points if it is a unicorn) => possession and various evil acts (consorting with devils etc) => more physical torture => forced to slay something innocent (bonus points if an outsider:good) => public sacrifice of paladin.

We've got at least a week of stuff in there.  Torture, sleep deprivation, and repeated verbal assaults are assumed throughout the duration.  If I listed torture that's just a more intense period.

That's just off the top of my head.  They have MAGIC and can violate so much more than the body.
'Forced to slay an innocent creature' - acted under duress/magical compulsion = not necessarily something a Paladin, used to having to kill, would find abhorrently tortuous on a greater scale than being physically violated.  I'm not seeing specifics on that list that I'd put at a higher magnitude than rape, personally.
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bkdubs123

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2008, 10:52:20 PM »
Okay, but we do agree that you don't start with the rape, and we also agree, I think, that the first aspects of simple physical torture probably take at least a day. Good touch with the rez though. And I was speaking more in generalities though, so the stuff you came up with specifically targeting the Paladin is good.

Now it seems no one has addressed my comments though that:

1) The torture doesn't have to go smoothly. Any number of reasons can complicate and/or delay the various steps, not the least of which being a petty conflict over who gets to fuck with the Paladin.

2) The Paladin could escape at some point during the torture given any number of setups or tools.

3) The PCs themselves might, and in fact have already discussed, come to rescue her. Causing a conflict, and causing the torture to be delayed.

And here's another cool one: Bad for the Paladin, but certainly more tolerable to the Player, I'm sure, but if/when the other PCs get there the Paladin might well be mind-controlled and forced to fight her own allies! Certainly evil, certainly up the Drow's alley, and it can avoid any messy stuff you don't want to happen.

Ubernoob

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2008, 10:54:36 PM »
'Forced to slay an innocent creature' - acted under duress/magical compulsion = not necessarily something a Paladin, used to having to kill, would find abhorrently tortuous on a greater scale than being physically violated.  I'm not seeing specifics on that list that I'd put at a higher magnitude than rape, personally.
Imagine you are a soldier in an army.  Now, somebody uses some sort of leverage so that you have to kill off one of the higher ups in your army.  Now, unlike you, they (unicorns) are absolutely perfect and can't come back from the dead.

To put it simply, killing a unicorn is directly harming the forces of good.  How could that *not* cause more mental anguish than matters of the flesh?

Remember: The closer you are to a moral/spiritual extreme the less matters of the flesh mean anything.

@bkdubs123: Good call on the mind controlled paladin attacking her own allies.  Very good call.
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bkdubs123

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2008, 11:06:36 PM »
Remember: The closer you are to a moral/spiritual extreme the less matters of the flesh mean anything.

And this is also an important point I was negligent in recognizing, though I still think that basically no one short of a total Transcendentalist (like not just in theory, but honest to goodness) would be okay with being raped. Of course some people get over it easier than others, but again some people can be utterly destroyed by it, and it is never something that just doesn't bother a person. But yes, a Paladin would have things that they would find harder to deal with, probably.

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2008, 11:10:42 PM »
'Forced to slay an innocent creature' - acted under duress/magical compulsion = not necessarily something a Paladin, used to having to kill, would find abhorrently tortuous on a greater scale than being physically violated.  I'm not seeing specifics on that list that I'd put at a higher magnitude than rape, personally.
Imagine you are a soldier in an army.  Now, somebody uses some sort of leverage so that you have to kill off one of the higher ups in your army.  Now, unlike you, they (unicorns) are absolutely perfect and can't come back from the dead.

To put it simply, killing a unicorn is directly harming the forces of good.  How could that *not* cause more mental anguish than matters of the flesh?

Remember: The closer you are to a moral/spiritual extreme the less matters of the flesh mean anything.

@bkdubs123: Good call on the mind controlled paladin attacking her own allies.  Very good call.
To put it simply, in a world where an afterlife is in no way subject to uncertainty, killing a creature of good is sending that creature on to paradise.  Doing so might very well be among the last things a Paladin would ever willingly do, but we're not talking about the Paladin doing it willingly unless I misunderstand your points about coercion and magic compulsion by a large amount.  I've spoken with war veterans who killed members of their own side, and I've spoken with rape victims.  My experience says the latter usually have a more difficult recovery period.  My experience is by no means the exclusive right answer, because people are people.

@bkdubs: Dominate and its ilk in the compulsion realm are fairly standard fare in mid-to-high level play, in my experience.  It's definitely a valid tactic, I just hope that using it doesn't bring the cry of 'again?!?' from the players.
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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2008, 11:32:38 PM »
I feel the need to point out that you are not seeing the forest for the trees.  The paladin is captured and tortured...so what?(thats after we consider why the rest of the PCs did not immediately follow negating the need for torture.)

What is the adventure?  (You seem obsessed with the torture rather than the adventure.) The PCs break the other PC out.  They should have a chance to do so before anything meaningful happens because that would be deprotagonizing GM fiat. 

And for the future I would use less flat boring pointless NPCs. 



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bkdubs123

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2008, 11:36:28 PM »
Well how are the other PCs to know where the Paladin was taken? They have to find that first, and then they have to get there. I completely assume that the PCs are going to go off to rescue the Paladin ASAP, but as has been illustrated, they can't have simply followed on the captors' heels.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2008, 11:45:44 PM by bkdubs123 »

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2008, 11:40:55 PM »
To put it simply, in a world where an afterlife is in no way subject to uncertainty, killing a creature of good is sending that creature on to paradise.
So use a +1 Keeper's Fang weapon or something - there are plenty of ways to mess that up.
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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #51 on: November 02, 2008, 12:03:23 AM »
I feel the need to point out that you are not seeing the forest for the trees.  The paladin is captured and tortured...so what?(thats after we consider why the rest of the PCs did not immediately follow negating the need for torture.)

What is the adventure?  (You seem obsessed with the torture rather than the adventure.) The PCs break the other PC out.  They should have a chance to do so before anything meaningful happens because that would be deprotagonizing GM fiat. 

And for the future I would use less flat boring pointless NPCs. 

If I am discussing trees rather than forest, it is because the nature of this topic is less the overall game - where, bad design or not, everyone has consistently had a good time - than the specifics of this particular encounter.  The rest of the PCs did not choose to immediately follow because they began the exploration of the cave/chimney at a point in the day where they were already short of resources, having dispatched the encounter where this cave was backdrop just before entering it.  Had they chosen to rest before doing so, most of this would be unnecessary.  Had they not chosen to thoroughly investigate the recesses of the cave after getting the treasure, most of this would be unnecessary.

I'm confused as to how NPCs that I've described, essentially in passing, with the broadest of strokes, are automatically flat boring and/or pointless; please, enlighten me.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 12:11:45 AM by InnaBinder »
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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #52 on: November 02, 2008, 12:17:27 AM »
Well how are the other PCs to know where the Paladin was taken? They have to find that first, and then they have to get there. I completely assume that the PCs are going to go off to rescue the Paladin ASAP, but as has been illustrated, they can't have simply followed on the captors' heels.
How was the paladin taken in the first place?  It is DnD, Surprise simply gives a surprise round. 

I feel the need to point out that you are not seeing the forest for the trees.  The paladin is captured and tortured...so what?(thats after we consider why the rest of the PCs did not immediately follow negating the need for torture.)

What is the adventure?  (You seem obsessed with the torture rather than the adventure.) The PCs break the other PC out.  They should have a chance to do so before anything meaningful happens because that would be deprotagonizing GM fiat. 

And for the future I would use less flat boring pointless NPCs. 

If I am discussing trees rather than forest, it is because the nature of this topic is less the overall game - where, bad design or not, everyone has consistently had a good time - than the specifics of this particular encounter.  The rest of the PCs did not choose to immediately follow because they began the exploration of the cave/chimney at a point in the day where they were already short of resources, having dispatched the encounter where this cave was backdrop just before entering it.  Had they chosen to rest before doing so, most of this would be unnecessary.  Had they not chosen to thoroughly investigate the recesses of the cave after getting the treasure, most of this would be unnecessary.

I'm confused as to how NPCs that I've described, essentially in passing, with the broadest of strokes, are automatically flat boring and/or pointless; please, enlighten me.

See, "yes but you could have had more fun"

People who just want to torture for tortures sake are flat boring and pointless.  Like vandalism vs. thievery. 
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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #53 on: November 02, 2008, 12:29:18 AM »
If you feel really mean, have the paladin be brainwashed by the torture. Stockholm syndrome. Depending on how you plan on this torture effecting the overall game, you should scale its severity. If it is something of minor consequence, then it should not be mind breakingly severe. Also, you mention your players complaining about minor details or things they view as you being "too easy/hard". Make them stop with this. Spend your entire night writing up vivid description of the torture. If your players complain, tell them that you thought letting her escape would be "too easy"
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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #54 on: November 02, 2008, 12:47:05 AM »
How was the paladin taken in the first place?  It is DnD, Surprise simply gives a surprise round. 

The other party members were 90' up, holding the rope and being the lookout, respectively, except the Psychic Rogue, who was also on the rope.  Nobody's Darkvision was able to extend to 90', and they didn't choose to give the two on the rope any light sources to aid sighting - probably because they're used to being able to see via Darkvision.   I glossed over the combat that did take place, which was 3 Drow versus the two of them; the Drow were using a DEX poison and the Paladin, despite Dwarven blood and Paladin saves, failed the saves.   So did the Psychic Rogue, who had secured herself (DMPC/groupthink PC) to the rope.  The Paladin had chosen to leap off the rope to the opening from which the Drow attacked, rendering herself unable to quickly reach the rope to signal for help.  They had arranged for a tug-signal should they encounter trouble, but neither of them chose to use it before engaging the Drow.  I can see how a glossed-over version sounded like DM fiat; hopefully this explanation makes it seem less so.
To further clarify, the Surprise round made the Psychic Rogue nearly helpless with a severe drop in DEX score thanks to the poison.  It was predicated by two separate DC 20 Listen checks, difficult for the Paladin and something on the order of 70% probability for the PsyRogue, who failed both rolls - rolled by player not DM.  Paladin is fired at by one of the other Drow.  Miss.  End Surprise round.  Paladin's Initiative was low enough that the Drow went first in Round 1; none of the PCs up top made out the commotion down below.  Drow A shoots Paladin again, hit and rolled a 2 on Fort save.  DEX damage.  Drow B shoots at Paladin, miss.  Drow C attempts rapid career advancement and shoots Drow A.  Paladin's turn.  She could have signaled those above, and instead chose to jump off the rope and swing at Drow A.  Roll a 5, plus all bonuses, is still a miss. AoOs missed.  Round 2: Drow A stabs at Paladin while cursing out C loudly.  B stabs at Paladin again, who is reduced at this point to 0 DEX with a 3 on the Fort save.


And for the future I would use less flat boring pointless NPCs. 

 <snip>

See, "yes but you could have had more fun"

People who just want to torture for tortures sake are flat boring and pointless.  Like vandalism vs. thievery. 
Drow, for good or for ill, have certain baggage that comes with them, especially in Faerun, and especially (apparently) among those I game with.  Not all the Drow the PCs encounter are the sort that enjoy torture for torture's sake, but if I were not to include a torturer, or were to change the modus operandi of their torture to be more practical, those at my table would say (and have said in similar instances in the past) that I was not portraying the Drow according to canon; at best, this would encourage them to more thoroughly investigate the Drow presence here - away from the main adventure, and at worst my players would have less fun because I'd twisted a particular favorite monster into something that wasn't that monster anymore.  Stereotypes exist because at least a sizable minority of the group in question behave stereotypically. 
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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #55 on: November 02, 2008, 02:07:40 AM »
Give her the opportunity to get ahold of a weapon and kill herself so the drow can't corrupt her - if she thinks it's hopeless, she'd be saving the world from a very dangerous fallen paladin. Better yet, let her do it during a drow ceremony or something, so the people responsible have the wrath of their bitchy god visited upon them or something. Take that, spider-skanks! In return for her noble sacrifice, have her god send her back with no/reduced resurrection penalties.

This would be my favourite option because it's outrageously ballsy, and that's the kind of heroic moment a paladin should get in D&D (or else, see Zeke's thoughts - I think he's very right).

You could also have the drow procrastinate long enough for her to escape any serious physical/sexual torture. Drow are notorious for being slutty and sadistic, but also for petty infighting. Maybe - because a paladin is such a prize, and will undoubtedly bring respect (jealousy) from other drow and favour from Llolth - two or more uppity matrons are bickering over her, perhaps even coming to violence about it. Maybe one of the group who captured her will try to steal the paladin, for her own glory, mistakenly thinking she can handle the pally on her own.

Also, you said they were slavers. Maybe a customer already wants the paladin, and they want her not-disfigured. And (to invoke a nasty-as-hell cliche) if she's the chaste sort of paladin, maybe they want her "pure", so to speak. Waiting for the buyer gives her time to plan an escape or have the other PCs come to her rescue. Make it clear that the drow want to do all kinds of horrible things to her, of course, but an outside factor is making them hold back.

Ubernoob

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #56 on: November 02, 2008, 02:26:58 AM »
Give her the opportunity to get ahold of a weapon and kill herself so the drow can't corrupt her - if she thinks it's hopeless, she'd be saving the world from a very dangerous fallen paladin. Better yet, let her do it during a drow ceremony or something, so the people responsible have the wrath of their bitchy god visited upon them or something. Take that, spider-skanks! In return for her noble sacrifice, have her god send her back with no/reduced resurrection penalties.

This would be my favourite option because it's outrageously ballsy, and that's the kind of heroic moment a paladin should get in D&D (or else, see Zeke's thoughts - I think he's very right).

You could also have the drow procrastinate long enough for her to escape any serious physical/sexual torture. Drow are notorious for being slutty and sadistic, but also for petty infighting. Maybe - because a paladin is such a prize, and will undoubtedly bring respect (jealousy) from other drow and favour from Llolth - two or more uppity matrons are bickering over her, perhaps even coming to violence about it. Maybe one of the group who captured her will try to steal the paladin, for her own glory, mistakenly thinking she can handle the pally on her own.

Also, you said they were slavers. Maybe a customer already wants the paladin, and they want her not-disfigured. And (to invoke a nasty-as-hell cliche) if she's the chaste sort of paladin, maybe they want her "pure", so to speak. Waiting for the buyer gives her time to plan an escape or have the other PCs come to her rescue. Make it clear that the drow want to do all kinds of horrible things to her, of course, but an outside factor is making them hold back.
I must say, this post is made of win.  +Fu for the brilliance.
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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #57 on: November 02, 2008, 02:41:53 AM »
Quote from: Fox Lee
You could also have the drow procrastinate long enough for her to escape any serious physical/sexual torture. Drow are notorious for being slutty and sadistic, but also for petty infighting. Maybe - because a paladin is such a prize, and will undoubtedly bring respect (jealousy) from other drow and favour from Llolth - two or more uppity matrons are bickering over her, perhaps even coming to violence about it. Maybe one of the group who captured her will try to steal the paladin, for her own glory, mistakenly thinking she can handle the pally on her own.
:D :clap :cheers brilliant.  +1
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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #58 on: November 02, 2008, 03:05:17 AM »

Good stuff. I forget they were slavers and would tell others about their acquisitions.
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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #59 on: November 02, 2008, 08:20:26 AM »
Thanks! Glad I could help ^_^