Author Topic: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers  (Read 23736 times)

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bkdubs123

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2008, 07:00:43 PM »
No, it doesn't sound at all like DM fiat... it sounds like some really poorly planned tactics. Did you go over the fact that Drow are generally really nasty people and that if the PCs were captured they'd likely be tortured in vile, cruel, and perverse ways? Because if you didn't you don't have to do any of that, but from the sounds of things you did. In which, case that's totally fine, let the Drow get things cooking, and let the Paladin player know all about what's going on, and if there's anything she can do. Allow her to act. Start her torture off with run of the mill abuse. That's pretty mild stuff. Basically, what I'm getting to here, is that before anything starts to get X-rated, or close to her gross out level, you can have something happen that gets her off the hook. Maybe the torturers are called off to combat the other PCs, maybe a pack of Delvers are at it again, ruining some of the Drow tunnels, maybe the other PCs actually come to rescue her at this point. The possibilities are endless, and the best part is, you get to keep your Drow seeming disgusting, and vile, and horrific creatures, while you never have to actually go through with any of that terrible gross stuff.

Zeke

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2008, 07:45:21 PM »
Ok what about escape, once the poison wears off? (my favorite scene from Hostel)

I realize I'm being a noodge here, but I think empowering the PC and trying to see what they can do and paying strict attention to the rules is the way out of this sticky situation. D&D is a heroic action adventure game.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2008, 07:50:52 PM by Zeke »

InnaBinder

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2008, 08:13:28 PM »
Ok what about escape, once the poison wears off? (my favorite scene from Hostel)

I realize I'm being a noodge here, but I think empowering the PC and trying to see what they can do and paying strict attention to the rules is the way out of this sticky situation. D&D is a heroic action adventure game.
If the Paladin's player chooses to attempt an escape at that point, I'm all for the attempt.  It'll be exceedingly difficult for her to succeed on her own, given her relatively limited resources, the fact that she's in the Drow's home environ, and was unconscious when brought to her holding area, but I wouldn't tell her it's impossible.  What sort of plan would you consider likely to succeed for a lone level 7 Paladin, without any stealth-related Skills, no spells (she didn't allocate enough WIS - um, yeah), and no armor/weapons without capturing some or breaking open the arms locker, against 12 - 15 Drow who have their place boobytrapped in several locales because, well, they're Drow?  I might sound defeatist, but I'm genuinely interested in reasonable plans against those odds.

On the other hand, if I were pulling any punches during her escape route, there'd be general uproar and snide comments galore about 'DM being nice' and 'these Drow have apparently been sick *coughcough*'.  If I were to eliminate the traps, for instance, someone at the table would comment about them not being real Drow, but High Elves with faceblack.


The way the last session ended was the rest of the party discussing a rescue mission, acknowledging amongst themselves - without my input - that such an effort would take a few days to plan at least.  It would be rather amusing to have them heroically break into the holding area and find she's not there, don't you think?   :lol
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Straw_Man

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2008, 08:40:50 PM »

  First off, plan the torture in blocks. First block - shock and terror. This would be rape, violence but no maiming, etc. You can gloss over this one. Then the real breaking - light mutilation and marking. Just be brief with details. And then the insidious psychological torture, you can go into details for this one.

  Remember, this is taking time. In between torture the victim is given time to try and re-knit her self so they can break it again. Also take into account as a paladin there will be hierarchies of who gets to 'play' with her and the contest of which priestess' get to break her. More time.

  Real heroes would be trying to get their party member back.
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Zeke

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2008, 08:46:07 PM »
OK I get it you REALLY want to torture one of your PCs. I understand the traps etc. but paladins get ridiculously high saving throws. There are unlikely to be more than  a few drow in a given area at a time and if the paladin dies in the attempt that is a BETTER outcome for you. In D&D death is fairly meaningless especially at the level of this party.

bkdubs123

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2008, 08:57:49 PM »

  First off, plan the torture in blocks. First block - shock and terror. This would be rape, violence but no maiming, etc. You can gloss over this one. Then the real breaking - light mutilation and marking. Just be brief with details. And then the insidious psychological torture, you can go into details for this one.

  Remember, this is taking time. In between torture the victim is given time to try and re-knit her self so they can break it again. Also take into account as a paladin there will be hierarchies of who gets to 'play' with her and the contest of which priestess' get to break her. More time.

Right, because rape is real breaking. No, no, repeated and grotesque sexual abuse, especially to one that considers herself a champion of good, isn't really damaging to the psyche. ???

DON'T start with the really fucking horrible stuff that no one wants to actually talk about or even hear mention of. Start with beatings, with light mutilation, shit like that. That's the tame stuff here. Keep building it up like something truly grotesque is going to happen to the Pally if things don't change soon, but as the DM, in total control, you don't have to let it ever happen. Hopefully the other PCs get there to rescue her in time, but you should have plenty of time before things have to get really insidious. Especially if there are the hierarchies thing Straw_Man mentioned, which there likely is. Who is deemed worthy by Lolth to be the one that brings the Paladin into ruin? This will probably take time to resolve. In the meantime she's probably just being beaten and other run-of-the-mill shit like that.

Ubernoob

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2008, 09:12:38 PM »
Why would they rape her *after* they mutilate and take away her beauty?
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InnaBinder

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2008, 09:16:56 PM »
OK I get it you REALLY want to torture one of your PCs. I understand the traps etc. but paladins get ridiculously high saving throws. There are unlikely to be more than  a few drow in a given area at a time and if the paladin dies in the attempt that is a BETTER outcome for you. In D&D death is fairly meaningless especially at the level of this party.
Her Reflex save is +5, Will save is +6.  She'd got a phenomenal Fort save. I agree that the Paladin dying is a legitimate out to avoid torture.  I just don't want to spoonfeed an escape route to her or railroad the attempt, anymore than I want to force torture on the party.  At 7th level, death will most likely result in her creating a new character, which isn't something I especially wanted to require either.
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Zeke

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2008, 09:23:49 PM »
Resurection is not that expensive. What traps is she running into with DCs like that at 7th level?

You have to be honest about wanting the torture though. You said you planned it as a possibility in your notes, with some fairly specific ideas. You don't put that level of detail into planning unless it's somthing you want to have happen. Anyway I created a post in GM Gameology about death taps and fiat, So I guess I'm done here.

bkdubs123

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2008, 09:25:52 PM »
Why would they rape her *after* they mutilate and take away her beauty?

Um, because rape has next to nothing to do with desire, and everything to do with exerting dominance and breaking will.

InnaBinder

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2008, 09:40:32 PM »
Resurection is not that expensive. What traps is she running into with DCs like that at 7th level?

You have to be honest about wanting the torture though. You said you planned it as a possibility in your notes, with some fairly specific ideas. You don't put that level of detail into planning unless it's somthing you want to have happen. Anyway I created a post in GM Gameology about death taps and fiat, So I guess I'm done here.
DC 18 - 20 traps are not at all unlikely against 7th level characters.  I'd find it odd to ratchet down the DCs on saves based on the fact that it's a single PC, then try to ratchet them back up if, instead, it's the proverbial cavalry coming to her rescue; I'm not sure if others would find that odd or normal.  Several of them, especially REF save traps, will have the possibility of poison for a FORT save as a secondary concern, though she'd probably need to roll 2s again to fail that.

My notes didn't start nearly this inclusive; they've been expanded based on knowing my players and 2 weeks thus far between sessions.  I put detail into possible sidequests because my players regularly go for option 17 of the 6 that I'd ordinarily figure on, and because I have precious little life to devote the rest of my energy toward.  :) Go me.

Resurrection would require the PCs to sell off some of their current items, unless a happenstance hoard were discovered.  Possible.  I could work on a way for this not to seem contrived.
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Straw_Man

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2008, 09:42:41 PM »

  First off, plan the torture in blocks. First block - shock and terror. This would be rape, violence but no maiming, etc. You can gloss over this one. Then the real breaking - light mutilation and marking. Just be brief with details. And then the insidious psychological torture, you can go into details for this one.

  Remember, this is taking time. In between torture the victim is given time to try and re-knit her self so they can break it again. Also take into account as a paladin there will be hierarchies of who gets to 'play' with her and the contest of which priestess' get to break her. More time.

Right, because rape is real breaking. No, no, repeated and grotesque sexual abuse, especially to one that considers herself a champion of good, isn't really damaging to the psyche. ???

DON'T start with the really fucking horrible stuff that no one wants to actually talk about or even hear mention of. Start with beatings, with light mutilation, shit like that. That's the tame stuff here. Keep building it up like something truly grotesque is going to happen to the Pally if things don't change soon, but as the DM, in total control, you don't have to let it ever happen. Hopefully the other PCs get there to rescue her in time, but you should have plenty of time before things have to get really insidious. Especially if there are the hierarchies thing Straw_Man mentioned, which there likely is. Who is deemed worthy by Lolth to be the one that brings the Paladin into ruin? This will probably take time to resolve. In the meantime she's probably just being beaten and other run-of-the-mill shit like that.

Rape sets up breaking, plus its gratitious extra. Even if it doesn't break you, yeah it leaves you the inescapable feeling of being dominated and violated - powerless.  And you don't want/ can't go into the really grotesque stuff because you WILL end up with a changed character. Basket case, broken, something. Is that within the GM's purview?

Better I think to run the drow as connesieurs of torture, taking it as long slow depraved trip. They have the time afterall.
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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2008, 09:47:22 PM »
Um, because rape has next to nothing to do with desire, and everything to do with exerting dominance and breaking will.
Depends on the rapist, actually.
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Straw_Man

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2008, 09:48:18 PM »
Um, because rape has next to nothing to do with desire, and everything to do with exerting dominance and breaking will.
Depends on the rapist, actually.

Often, call it 95% it is about hate and dominance actually. Or at least thats what the stats suggest.
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Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

InnaBinder

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2008, 09:50:45 PM »
One thing we should probably consider in all this discussion is the probability, given a matriarchal society, that the Drow who torture the Paladin - if it goes that route - will be female.  It's not impossible for a female to rape someone, male or female, it's a considerably different dichotomy than standard, though.
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Ubernoob

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2008, 09:57:37 PM »
Why would they rape her *after* they mutilate and take away her beauty?

Um, because rape has next to nothing to do with desire, and everything to do with exerting dominance and breaking will.
And?  Is not the point of rape in torture to make the subject feel impure?  Would not that be even more effective at the start?

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bkdubs123

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2008, 10:20:30 PM »
Why would they rape her *after* they mutilate and take away her beauty?

Um, because rape has next to nothing to do with desire, and everything to do with exerting dominance and breaking will.
And?  Is not the point of rape in torture to make the subject feel impure?  Would not that be even more effective at the start?

Rule one of team evil: The bigger the fall the cooler it is.

Oh, definitely, but since these guys really like the whole torturing thing they're going to want to take their time with it. Completely demolishing someone's will to begin with will make the rest of the torture less fun. It's like the Joker in The Dark Knight said, "Never start with the head." Don't use your big guns when torturing, especially if you want to savor it, or make it last longer. If you do, the victim will be de-sensitized to the rest of your game.

And, as has been pointed out, there will likely be competition over who get to do the ultimate breaking of the Paladin. I think rape would be far into the breaking of the subject, not the beginning, and therefore this competition is likely to buy even more time, and in the meantime, more mundane, less "skilled" torturers will be working the Paladin over. Likely with methods the Paladin, and her player, will be able to endure.

Ubernoob

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2008, 10:24:56 PM »
Oh, definitely, but since these guys really like the whole torturing thing they're going to want to take their time with it. Completely demolishing someone's will to begin with will make the rest of the torture less fun. It's like the Joker in The Dark Knight said, "Never start with the head." Don't use your big guns when torturing, especially if you want to savor it, or make it last longer. If you do, the victim will be de-sensitized to the rest of your game.

And, as has been pointed out, there will likely be competition over who get to do the ultimate breaking of the Paladin. I think rape would be far into the breaking of the subject, not the beginning, and therefore this competition is likely to buy even more time, and in the meantime, more mundane, less "skilled" torturers will be working the Paladin over. Likely with methods the Paladin, and her player, will be able to endure.
I dunno about you, but I can think of FAAAR more scarring things than Rape.  IMO any truly evil entity will have more imagination than me.  Rape really is just the start for something truly evil.
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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2008, 10:28:56 PM »
I dunno about you, but I can think of FAAAR more scarring things than Rape.  IMO any truly evil entity will have more imagination than me.  Rape really is just the start for something truly evil.
I think that depends in part on the particulars of the victim.  For some, rape's much higher up on the list of horrible things that can happen to them; some would say it's easier to get over than some other abuses.

In this case, again, remember, the torturers are most likely female.
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Straw_Man

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Re: Paladin Captured by Drow Slavers
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2008, 10:30:10 PM »
  Depends on the timeframe they have scheduled really. If drow are really all that more in-humanly evil they may never rape her, but I find that unlikely. ever  read the Deeds of Paksenarrion, beautiful scene at the end where the Paladin Paks voluntarily offers herself as a sacrifice to save the king.
 
  She's tortured badly, but the rape had what, one, two lines devoted to it. Their torturing a paladin, a moral force of nature, and warrior. The rape was unpleasant and  disgusting but ultimately only an inconvenience to Paks.
"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."