Author Topic: Improved Dwarven Defender  (Read 11056 times)

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Elennsar

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2008, 01:17:04 PM »
That might work.

How to adjust this and add in the feat so it is a little less front heavy?

Even with weak feats, getting a bunch of feats at 1st level is very tempting. And I do not want to deal with "I'll dip in." anymore than is unavoidable in a system that doesn't rule out dipping.

Prestige classes are meant to be at least a fairly serious part of your character's identity, so taking multiple levels should be well worth it.

Bkdubs123:
I would drop the Strength bonus for Defensive Stance. If it needs the bite, let's give it a bonus to clobber people in general, but going defensive shouldn't be necessary to get it.
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SiggyDevil

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2008, 04:05:10 PM »
I would make Defensive Stance just that. A stance.
Whenever X condition is fulfilled (dwarf makes no more than 1 move action each round) they get Y and Z bonuses.

Also needs counter attack capabilities similar to Robilar's Gambit, Protection from Arrows spell effect, and Spell Resistance (or boosted benefit from dwarf bonus to saves against spells), or else they'll just be a walking wall.. prime target for skirmishers, spellcasters, and archers.

Psychic Robot

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2008, 01:10:08 AM »
Some partially organized thoughts:

4+Int Skill points, add Fighter class skills to list instead of as DMG.

Requirements (feats): Armor Proficiency (heavy), Diehard, Endurance, Formation Expert. This replaces the requirements in the DMG.

1) A Dwarven defender may move up to his base movement each round while in a Defensive Stance. He does not gain a bonus to Strength, and must fight defensively (or use Combat Expertise) or use Total Defense while in his Defensive Stance. Otherwise, this ability works as written.

2) Dwarven Defenders recieve a bonus to saves versus fear equal to their Defender level.

3) A Dwarven Defender may, at 3rd level and above, add the higher of his Constitution or Wisdom modifier to Will saves.

4) A Dwarven Defender may act normally when disabled. This ability applies from 1st level on.

5) A Dwarven defender recieves a bonus to AC equal to the higher of +2 when using Lock Shields, not +1. This applies from 1st level on.

6) At 8th level on, a Dwarven defender who becomes exhausted is instead merely fatigued, and fatigue has no effect. This also eliminates the winded state after using a Defensive Stance.

Constructive comments and suggestions welcome. This write up is written on the assumption that wizards and other spellcasters are toned down in power, and is intended to be at tier 3 (to use JaronK's tier scale), though it will probably additional features to keep up offensively, as the class (even without the adjustment to Defensive Stance) lacks bite. I am unsure of how high a bonus to give it, however, as my experience in play does not include mid-high teen levels.

Bonus vs. fear equal to level?  Con to Will saves?  Just make the class immune to fear and be done with it.  Drop the crap feats--namely, Diehard/Endurance.  Give the class those as bonus feats.  Give the class bonus HP, too.

Elennsar

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2008, 01:14:17 AM »
Immunity to fear is a tad strong, but its not necessarily a bad idea.

My reasoning for "bonus" (and this applies to the Con to Will as well)...a fair a number of DD will be entering the class as Fighters.

Fighters should be harder to scare and Dwarven fighters should wind up with tougher Will saves than average.

As for bonus hp: It already has (officially) a d12. Does it need more?

As for crap feats: I'd like to make both of those useful feats rather than dump them from the game, but that's a seperate process from the class. Still, leaning in favor of those suggesting it get Diehard as a bonus feat (at first level? When?)
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



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Psychic Robot

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2008, 03:36:00 AM »
No, it probably doesn't need more.  But I like it having more.  MOAR HP


Elennsar

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2008, 06:07:53 AM »
 :lmao

Okay. Seriously. Why does it need more than a d10?

No, I'm not against better, but does it need better?

Because frankly, I think it should have hit points equal to the its Constitution score times character level, myself.  :P

That is, each level adds that many hit points. So at 1st level in DD, you gain 6 (or 8, depending on the BAB requirement) x Con score, 2nd level in DD is 7 (or 9) x Con score...
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

SiggyDevil

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2008, 01:45:10 AM »
A relatively stationary class always needs moar HP.

Using CON score rather than any class bonus might work, but when you factor in CON boosting items it gets weird.

Elennsar

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2008, 04:30:34 PM »
Um, for the idea that Dwarven Defenders should have a bonus to resist being tripped/bull rushed, two questions before I request a test by someone who feels they can build an efficient one.

1) How big a bonus?

2) When does it start? And is this a "bonus by being a Dwarven Defender at all" (possibly improved by being in DS), or "bonus only while in Defensive Stance"

Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



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bkdubs123

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2008, 05:24:23 PM »
Well, there's a 3rd level Stone Dragon stance that gives +10 to resist those things. Roots of the Mountain. So, I'd say it can probably start at +4 to resist, just by being a DD, increase to +6 by entering Defensive Stance, and then maybe increase to like... +8/+16? +10/+20? At the end of 10 levels.

Elennsar

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2008, 05:34:25 PM »
Sounds good to me! Who feels like making a reasonably optimized but not flawless (Since that will give a false impression of how good it is) sample Defender for us to playtest?
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



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bkdubs123

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2008, 06:34:07 PM »
What? With what class? I've seen lots of ideas bumped around here, but absolutely no finalized mechanics...  ???

Elennsar

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2008, 06:35:35 PM »
True. Um, give me a few minutes and I'll post a-unless-I-overlooked-something write up.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

bkdubs123

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2008, 06:37:57 PM »
True. Um, give me a few minutes and I'll post a-unless-I-overlooked-something write up.

 :lol

I'll give it a go after you're done.

Elennsar

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2008, 06:42:08 PM »
Well, right now, we just have yours. I could piece something else together, but that seems the only one with "when it gets what" all lined up.

So let's try that.

Gah, way to go brain, overlook the fact we didn't have a prepared "this is what it looks like now".

So, let's see what we get. This isn't about balance in terms of dipping, just about if it can handle challenges of its CR if you pursue it all the way.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

bkdubs123

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2008, 06:59:54 PM »
15th level or what?

Elennsar

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2008, 07:02:55 PM »
Yeah, let's start there and work our way down. If it can handle 15th level, we know that maxing it out is worth the investment.

After that, start at 6th (level 1 in DD) and see how it goes, I think.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

bkdubs123

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2008, 07:51:07 PM »
Okay, here we go:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=90573

He stays in Thicket of Blades basically all the time combining it's power with Bulwark of Defense and LOOK AT ME! to great effect. With Active Shield Specialization he can fight defensively or even take a full defense action while being able to his attacks of opportunity and to get the higher bonuses to Defensive Stance. Furious Counterstrike, Defender's Fury, Power Attack, and Devoted Bulwark all combine to allow the Defender to deal very solid damage while being able to absorb many many attacks. The adjustment to Diehard and the extra rerolls given by the class give it extra survivability against magical attacks. Faith Unswerving allows the Defender to be even more mobile than he would otherwise be allowed. All in the character seems very solid, and the numbers it can put up are quite competitive with monsters near his CR. In fact it might be too strong. 105 temporary hitpoints, SR 33, the ability to repeatedly spam the One Last Strike ability of Faith Unswerving for hugely damaging attacks.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 07:55:34 PM by bkdubs123 »

Elennsar

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2008, 08:27:21 PM »
Now, what's a good CR 16 challenge....

After I find something (MM), let's put this to the test in practice.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

Mister_Sinister

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2008, 08:47:25 PM »
The Hypertext D20 SRD is your friend!

Planetar, Cornugon, Nightwalker, to name my favourites. If you're doing this as a proper Same Game challenge at level 16, I also recommend the following:

- A tag-team of Nalfeshnees

- A tag-team of

- A [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#stormGiant]Storm Giant and his two drinking buddies


- A 14th level necromancer and his Devourer pets.

That should do it.

Everything I learned about DnD I learned from Frank Trollman at The Gaming Den... but nowadays, my work space is the New DnD Wiki.

Check them both out!