Factotum Challenge.

[Kaelik]

1) Okay, JaronK, when was the last time you looked at my sheet? Because pretty much the day after I posted it while I was still fiddling around with equipment I already did that. I hadn't even finished my equipment list until after I had already changed my Str to 8. I guess that is the source of your comments. Fair enough, but I had already taken that into account as soon as I calculated my weight.

2) Do the ToB items duplicate stances? Would it be possible to for example, give myself Assassin's Stance? Or is it just Maneuvers?

3) Not sure if you saw it in the deleted post, but yeah, not really going to bother with a custom grease item.

4) the UMD is +8 Item familiar, +2 "Masterwork tool" feel free to complain about it, but unless all you masterworks are explicitly listed in books, it seems pretty equivalent. Speaking of which, shouldn't you have something like springs on the release of your quickrazor that give +2 circumstance to IF checks? When I make my IF rogue, I will. I mean, if you are going to go the Masterwork tool route, why not do it for all your skills that matter. Do you want to know all my other bonuses? I'll get to that if you really want to know, but aside from synergy/racial/item familiar/masterwork tools, I don't think I have any others. (I think the other Item Familiars went into MS.)

5) Further weight issues: Clothes don't count for encumbrance, do you seriously want me to make up random weights for items that don't have listed weights anywhere in any book?

[JaronK]

1) Okay, JaronK, when was the last time you looked at my sheet? Because pretty much the day after I posted it while I was still fiddling around with equipment I already did that. I hadn't even finished my equipment list until after I had already changed my Str to 8. I guess that is the source of your comments. Fair enough, but I had already taken that into account as soon as I calculated my weight.

Hmm, I've been checking it over... must have missed that.

2) Do the ToB items duplicate stances? Would it be possible to for example, give myself Assassin's Stance? Or is it just Maneuvers?

Stances do technically count as manuevers, though you usually need other manuevers as prerequisites.

3) Not sure if you saw it in the deleted post, but yeah, not really going to bother with a custom grease item.

Good, that makes things a lot more reasonable.

4) the UMD is +8 Item familiar, +2 "Masterwork tool" feel free to complain about it, but unless all you masterworks are explicitly listed in books, it seems pretty equivalent. Speaking of which, shouldn't you have something like springs on the release of your quickrazor that give +2 circumstance to IF checks? When I make my IF rogue, I will. I mean, if you are going to go the Masterwork tool route, why not do it for all your skills that matter. Do you want to know all my other bonuses? I'll get to that if you really want to know, but aside from synergy/racial/item familiar/masterwork tools, I don't think I have any others. (I think the other Item Familiars went into MS.)

My masterwork items are, in fact, all listed in the books (they're all either Artisan's Tools which boost craft checks, or they're kits that are specifically listed, and if you want I can give explicit sourcing for every one of them).  I was being careful to be as by the books as possible.  That's why I didn't have any kind of masterwork springs for IF or anything... it seemed dodgy, and I was trying for something as reasonable as possible.  I can go back and alter that, including things like masterwork silent shoes to boost Move Silently, and such.  But yeah, since I didn't see any Masterwork UMD tool in the list and I know one doesn't exist normally, I didn't know you were doing that.  I mean, I'm not really sure what a Masterwork UMD tool would be.  But again, I can go back and handle that sort of thing. 

5) Further weight issues: Clothes don't count for encumbrance, do you seriously want me to make up random weights for items that don't have listed weights anywhere in any book?

Is that Camo cloak actually an item that gives a bonus?  Because Camoflague actually is something you can get.  See, if it's not giving you a bonus, then it doesn't matter as it can be part of your free set, which means the weight doesn't matter.  However, if it's camoflagued clothing (+2 hide checks in appropriate terrain, chosen from a few possibilities) then the weight does count.  That's why I've mentioned it... I assumed your camo cloak was actually a camoflagued item.  If it's not, then the weight does not matter at all, because the first set of free clothes doesn't matter for encumbrance (but everything after that does).

JaronK

[AfterCrescent]

Why do you only "Prune" my statements that are directly equivalent to JaronKs?

I didn't. Both your and JaronK's posts were deleted. If you have a problem with the warnings and actions of a moderator, please bring it to the attention of another moderator.

[Kaelik]

If you have a problem with the warnings and actions of a moderator, please bring it to the attention of another moderator.

I have already done so.

[Kaelik]

My masterwork items are, in fact, all listed in the books (they're all either Artisan's Tools which boost craft checks, or they're kits that are specifically listed, and if you want I can give explicit sourcing for every one of them).  I was being careful to be as by the books as possible.  That's why I didn't have any kind of masterwork springs for IF or anything... it seemed dodgy, and I was trying for something as reasonable as possible.  I can go back and alter that, including things like masterwork silent shoes to boost Move Silently, and such.  But yeah, since I didn't see any Masterwork UMD tool in the list and I know one doesn't exist normally, I didn't know you were doing that.  I mean, I'm not really sure what a Masterwork UMD tool would be.  But again, I can go back and handle that sort of thing.

1) I'll take your word on them all being from some book or another. To be honest, just saw a crap ton of masterwork tools I had never heard of and assumed you were using that system so I attempted to match optimization. I'll go through an delete the ones that aren't official. Though IIRC Arms an Equipment has Silk Shoes and tumblers straps. 3.0, but for all I know there is some random web update that changes nothing.

2) Speaking of IF, you said in the other thread that it wasn't clear if it was for the round or just the attack. Did they seriously write that skill with out ever thinking of the quickdraw feat?

Is that Camo cloak actually an item that gives a bonus?  Because Camoflague actually is something you can get.  See, if it's not giving you a bonus, then it doesn't matter as it can be part of your free set, which means the weight doesn't matter.  However, if it's camoflagued clothing (+2 hide checks in appropriate terrain, chosen from a few possibilities) then the weight does count.  That's why I've mentioned it... I assumed your camo cloak was actually a camoflagued item.  If it's not, then the weight does not matter at all, because the first set of free clothes doesn't matter for encumbrance (but everything after that does).

To be honest, I had no idea that camo cloaks actually exist somewhere in some book.

EDIT: Oh, and since this rogue isn't using IF, and UMD is plenty high, I went ahead and upgraded to 10 Str. -1 to two skill checks doesn't really matter.

EDIT 2: By the way, in your deleted post, you said something about her not being rougelike, I'm sorry, I don't labor under the false impression that Rogues have to be 2e thieves. It may just be my (lack of) age showing, but I consider rogues viable and diverse characters who don't have to sneak around hiding from enemies and performing support functions.

[JaronK]

1) I'll take your word on them all being from some book or another. To be honest, just saw a crap ton of masterwork tools I had never heard of and assumed you were using that system so I attempted to match optimization. I'll go through an delete the ones that aren't official. Though IIRC Arms an Equipment has Silk Shoes and tumblers straps. 3.0, but for all I know there is some random web update that changes nothing.

Those were just names of Artisan's Tools, specifying what they gave their bonuses to. 

I was avoiding Arms and Equipment Guide because that book was never actually updated for 3.0 (OA was).  It was Silent Shoes (which only give +1, by the way).  But again, I was avoiding all that.

2) Speaking of IF, you said in the other thread that it wasn't clear if it was for the round or just the attack. Did they seriously write that skill with out ever thinking of the quickdraw feat?

Of course they expected Quickdraw.  The Iajuitsu Master PrC requires it, in fact.  However, it says "immediately after drawing" so I don't believe that it works for the whole round... hence the use of the Quickrazor, which solves that issue.  And remember, Quickdraw doesn't let you sheath as a free action, so if you want multiple IF strikes, you need to get extra actions, draw weapons and drop them, or use a Quickrazor.

To be honest, I had no idea that camo cloaks actually exist somewhere in some book.

If nothing else, it could have been intended as a masterwork hide tool. 

EDIT 2: By the way, in your deleted post, you said something about her not being rougelike, I'm sorry, I don't labor under the false impression that Rogues have to be 2e thieves. It may just be my (lack of) age showing, but I consider rogues viable and diverse characters who don't have to sneak around hiding from enemies and performing support functions.

I was refering to the fact that, as originally created, you weren't functional unless the dinosaur (who has poor stealth skills) was near.  As such, you weren't effective as a stealther... but you were also putting tons of points into stealth, which means the character didn't look like it worked as intended.  I'm fully aware of using Rogues in ways other than stealth.

JaronK

[Kaelik]

Of course they expected Quickdraw.  The Iajuitsu Master PrC requires it, in fact.  However, it says "immediately after drawing" so I don't believe that it works for the whole round... hence the use of the Quickrazor, which solves that issue.  And remember, Quickdraw doesn't let you sheath as a free action, so if you want multiple IF strikes, you need to get extra actions, draw weapons and drop them, or use a Quickrazor.

My only point was that you said the wording was ambiguous whether it applied to all attacks in a full attack or just the first. Given what you just quoted, it seems apparent that it should only apply to the first attack (which is what I always assumed it was since I first heard about it) but I can see how someone might decide that it is unclear.

[JaronK]

My only point was that you said the wording was ambiguous whether it applied to all attacks in a full attack or just the first. Given what you just quoted, it seems apparent that it should only apply to the first attack (which is what I always assumed it was since I first heard about it) but I can see how someone might decide that it is unclear.

Yeah, well, I've definitely heard people saying that it works for the full round, so I'll say it's unclear because clearly others feel differently.  However, "immediately" to me suggests that it only works right after you draw it, hence my use of the Quickrazor.  But I don't like stating something as a fact unless I'm damn sure.

JaronK

[Ubernoob]

Ubernoob: Ardent, Pet Rock, Mount

Kaelik: Rogue, Mount

JaronK: Factotum, Mount

TheWordSlinger: Warblade

Still missing the Shugenja
Random Analysis
[spoiler]
Members in order of best offensive action to worst per my estimation: Ardent>Rogue's Pet>Rogue>Warblade>Factotum's Pet>Factotum>Ardent's pet (move this up behind the rogue if you count the poison as a part of the pet rather than the ardent)

Defenses per my estimation: Factotum's Pet>Rogue's Pet>Ardent>Ardent's Pet>Rogue>Warblade>Factotum

Out of Combat per my estimation: Depends on what it is.  Both the rogue and factotum have trapfinding.  The ardent can summon trapmonkies, move doors (time hop), teleport, and create poisons (psionic minor creation).  The factotum can also boost each skill check by 5 1/day, so even if he loses out on individual total, he can win when it matters, so don't take the skill check analysis too heavily if it looks like the factotum is losing.


Who is best at what skills people have invested in (humanoids only):
Rogue: Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, UMD, Balance, Open Lock, Ride, Tumble, 9 total
Ardent: Spot, Listen, Autohypnosis, Craft, Decipher Script(trained only, autowin), Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge(psionics), Perform, Sense Motive, Survival, 14 total
Factotum: Slight of Hand, Bluff, Disable Device, Knowledge(anything not local or psionics), Appraise, Climb, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Search, Spellcraft, Use Rope, Iajitsu Focus, 18 total
Warblade: Knowledge(local), Concentration, Jump, Survival, Swim, 5 total

Seems like the factotum wins out the skills department by sheer number.  He gets 6 powerful skills he is the best at (bluff, disable device, disguise, escape artist, search, Iajitsu focus).  The rogue gets 7 power skills (hide, move silently, spot, listen, UMDm open lock, tumble).  The Ardent gets 8 power skills (spot, listen, autohypnosis, craft:poisonmaking, diplomacy, gather information, intimidate, sense motive).  The warblade alas only gets one power skill (concentration).

So in order of power skills:
Ardent>Rogue>Factotum>Warblade

I'm just looking at who has the highest bonus, not by how much it is.

So far it looks like the ardent and rogue aren't even playing the same game as the factotum and warblade.[/spoiler]

[Ubernoob]

What the hell is with Jaron's "mount." It's a Warbeast Hunting Bat, which for starters makes as much sense as a War War Horse, because a Desmodu hunting bat is already a warbeast. Secondly, a Hunting Bat is a medium, 4 HD creature. He is seriously getting an "advanced" Hunting Bat even before applying the Warbeast template. Where the fucking hell did he find the cost for that?

Of course, even if we for some reason allowed all that bllshit, JaronK is still purchasing a "mount" that he is personally too large to ride. It's a large flyer with no special carrying capacity powers, so it can't carry a medium character into battle as a mount. And he's a medium character.

But the real kicker I think is the fact that it's an exotic trained fighting beast and he has a Handle Animal mod of +0. He can't take 20 to get it to do anything. What the hell? For all the obvious work into finding all those loopholes, you'd think that he would have kicked off for some kind of loophole that actually fucking worked.

-Frank

Have we addressed this?

[BowenSilverclaw]

[/lurk]
Wait, Large flying mounts can't carry Medium riders?
I never knew flyers had different rules concerning who they can carry in terms of size 
[lurk]

[Ubernoob]

[/lurk]
Wait, Large flying mounts can't carry Medium riders?
I never knew flyers had different rules concerning who they can carry in terms of size 
[lurk]

Anyways, we're still looking for a shugenja player.  Here's a basic layout of spells and shit:
0-All four water, detect magic, ghost sound, mage hand
1-Obscuring Mist, Bless, silent image, shield of faith
2-Lesser restoration, glitterdust

Order-Order of the Spring Zephyr

Buy SF:Knowledge(Religion) via Complete scoundrel, head into divine oracle next level.  Feats are pretty open, so who knows.

That's as much as I've got without actually running it.  Can we PLEASE get a shugenja player?  Your character is half way built already.

[BowenSilverclaw]

I'm sorry, Uber, I'm way to busy with uni at the moment.
I'll plug this in both of my PbP's though, least I can do

[emissary666]

Said i would be the shugenja, but I can't find complete divine! I'm out.

[Ubernoob]

Said i would be the shugenja, but I can't find complete divine! I'm out.

You do realize that you can download it, right?

[emissary666]

Where?

[BowenSilverclaw]

Either via torrents or a shareware program.

[Ubernoob]

Either via torrents or a shareware program.

mIRC is pretty damn quick.

[Sunic_Flames]

[/lurk]
Wait, Large flying mounts can't carry Medium riders?
I never knew flyers had different rules concerning who they can carry in terms of size 
[lurk]

A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load. (Note that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load.) All fly speeds include a parenthetical note indicating maneuverability, as follows:

Medium is likely too damn heavy. At least with equipment it is.

[Ubernoob]

OK, so I just downloaded dungeonscape to check a few things.
1) Factotum casting is even more worthless than I'd originally thought:
A) You have to pay the XP costs and need the components.  This means for instance that major creation for black lotus requires you to actually have black lotus on hand.
B) It's not gish progression (delayed a couple levels).  It's bard progression.  You literally don't get cloudkill until level 13 and get no other level 5 spells if you do that.  The majority of your spells are actually two levels behind sorcerer casting.  That blows chunks.
2) The sneak attack is badly worded.  It implies it only applies to that attack and not the whole round.
3) The healing/turn undead is a fucking joke.
4) Cunning breach doesn't apply to your allies and doesn't last for the whole round, so is a joke.

What we've been overlooking:
1) Cunning Brilliance is fucking amazing, but doesn't come into play until level 19 so really isn't worth discussing.
2) Cunning surge blows without FoI, but is pretty nice with it.  Definitely the cutoff point for the class.  There is no reason to ever go past level 8 in factotum.
3) Brains over Brawn is the best ability in the entire class.  Hands down this ability is amazing.  Why JaronK hasn't been citing it as a central ability just completely awes me.
4) Cunning insight for a competence bonus = int on a save for one IP is fucking hawt.  Second best ability in the entire class.  Why JaronK hasn't been citing this as a central ability in the class just fucking awes me.


So, we have notable class abilities at 3, and if FoI is in play, 1 and 8.


Factotum casting is completely worthless, but brains over brawn, cunning insight, and cunning surge are fucking good.  Not great (aside from brains over brawn), but very good abilities to build around.