Author Topic: Factotum Challenge.  (Read 16527 times)

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Kaelik

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #60 on: November 01, 2008, 11:34:34 PM »
Well, my reply got eateded twice, so I'll just address the important parts:

1) I don't mean how your Factotum knows about your mount, I mean what book these things are in, because I see no book with a list of buyable mounts other then horse and riding dog in PHB, and they seem to be something useful. This is not a "you can't have that!" phrased as a question, it is: "Hey what's that?"

2) Yes, feats which provide greater benefits then 90% of other feats to every character regardless of class don't show Factotums to be sweet. I don't like that you are willing to abuse anything you can even think of, and yet refuse to admit that you have a level of min-max and optimization that most people don't use in their normal games. If a Factotum can't keep up without Item Familiar, then he sucks. Sorry. Everyone else manages to be just fine without Item Familiar. Stop complaining that if you don't have access to every single obscure bit of cheese you can think of that we are being biased.

3) Crafting: Every character in the game has access to crafting, parties are done where groups have WBL, and where groups have double WBL, but no parties, and no fair comparisons are done where one player has twice the wealth of anyone else.

4) So now to call you on some more bullshit that you will inevitably complain that if you don't have we are cheating you of what every DM allows: You have a gnome weapon that was crafted by a dwarven fey human.

Please explain how that makes any sense to anyone. Just drop the Dwarvencraft, it doesn't even matter because no one is going to target your Item Familiar anyway, and that way you aren't bullshitting us with an item that was crafted by both dwarves and fey.

JaronK

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #61 on: November 01, 2008, 11:57:05 PM »
Well, my reply got eateded twice, so I'll just address the important parts:

1) I don't mean how your Factotum knows about your mount, I mean what book these things are in, because I see no book with a list of buyable mounts other then horse and riding dog in PHB, and they seem to be something useful. This is not a "you can't have that!" phrased as a question, it is: "Hey what's that?"

Ah, sorry, thought you meant something else.

Desmoderu Hunting Bats are found in Monster Manual 2, and note that they were specifically addressed by the 3.5 update of that book (they now have Blindsense, not Blindsight, for example).  MMII also has the Warbeast template, which can be applied to any domesticated creature (which Hunting Bats specifically are) with a DC 20 Handle Animal Check (which the Factotum can easily make using his Cunning Knowledge ability).  The nice thing about this template is that it gives you a set price to purchase such a mount (based on HD), which is a big reason to use it, as the Hunting Bat entry never actually gives a price.

Note also that Eberron has some rules for purchasing mounts... depending on how much money I have, I may or may not apply the Magebreed template, which doubles the cost of the mount but makes it a bit better.

Really, though, I just wanted to have some sort of mount that seemed thematically appropriate, as I didn't think a big heavy warhorse sounded right.

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2) Yes, feats which provide greater benefits then 90% of other feats to every character regardless of class don't show Factotums to be sweet. I don't like that you are willing to abuse anything you can even think of, and yet refuse to admit that you have a level of min-max and optimization that most people don't use in their normal games. If a Factotum can't keep up without Item Familiar, then he sucks. Sorry. Everyone else manages to be just fine without Item Familiar. Stop complaining that if you don't have access to every single obscure bit of cheese you can think of that we are being biased.

It's not that he can't keep up without Item Familiar.  It's that I specifically wanted a concept of a character that didn't have to depend much on found gear.  And at this point, you've complained about Item Familiars (which were in the initial rules given), Font of Inspiration (the only Factotum only feat), and Craft Wonderous Items (because other classes can't do it, it's too powerful, whatever, despite it actually being an example of a feat that classes with spell like abilities could take).  It starts looking like you're just going to whine unless I build something using really weak feats... the only one you haven't complained about is Exotic Weapon Proficiency, a feat that a lot of people consider to be sub par (since you could get around that with the Skillfull enchantment anyway).

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3) Crafting: Every character in the game has access to crafting, parties are done where groups have WBL, and where groups have double WBL, but no parties, and no fair comparisons are done where one player has twice the wealth of anyone else.

See?

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4) So now to call you on some more bullshit that you will inevitably complain that if you don't have we are cheating you of what every DM allows: You have a gnome weapon that was crafted by a dwarven fey human.

Holy crap, you just went after EWP: Quickrazor.  You've now whined about every feat I took.  That's hilarious.  Seriously, that part above where I said the only one you hadn't gone after was EWP?  That was before I got here. 

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Please explain how that makes any sense to anyone. Just drop the Dwarvencraft, it doesn't even matter because no one is going to target your Item Familiar anyway, and that way you aren't bullshitting us with an item that was crafted by both dwarves and fey.

Dwarvencraft is simply an amount of quality... it does not require being made by dwarves, and simply represents one step up from Masterwork (though Dwarves created the techniques.  In fact, my Factotum made it himself.  Likewise, Feycraft simply requires working with the fey when you make it, and again, the Factotum did it himself.  And "Gnome Quickrazor" just means the weapon was invented and/or popularized by gnomes.  The whole weapon was done with the aid of magic telling him how to do it (Magecraft).  In other words, to avoid the names and just use the descriptions, the weapon is a very well crafted weapon that's especially lightweight, based on a design originally created by one culture but using smithing techniques of two other cultures to improve the quality.  Now, does a random person finding one of these things make much sense?  Maybe not.  But does a character whose specific abilities make him great at using all kinds of skills combining skills from various areas to make this weapon make sense?  I think so.

Does that make sense to you?  Or is the idea of combining the smithing and crafting ideas of various cultures completely nonsensical?

Meanwhile, if it doesn't matter, then you shouldn't care right?  I did it mostly to make sure that Adamantine wouldn't ignore the hardness of the weapon if it was attacked (which would happen, since the hardness went below 20 for feycraft), though I'm planning on using Augment Object on it once every 10 days anyway to double the hardness.  After all, the major drawback of Item Familiars is that losing it really sucks, so making sure it's as hard as possible to destroy is a good thing.

JaronK
« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 12:16:39 AM by JaronK »

Kaelik

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #62 on: November 02, 2008, 01:10:28 AM »
It's not that he can't keep up without Item Familiar.  It's that I specifically wanted a concept of a character that didn't have to depend much on found gear.  And at this point, you've complained about Item Familiars (which were in the initial rules given), Font of Inspiration (the only Factotum only feat), and Craft Wonderous Items (because other classes can't do it, it's too powerful, whatever, despite it actually being an example of a feat that classes with spell like abilities could take).  It starts looking like you're just going to whine unless I build something using really weak feats... the only one you haven't complained about is Exotic Weapon Proficiency, a feat that a lot of people consider to be sub par (since you could get around that with the Skillfull enchantment anyway).

And yet, if you used crafting for just getting items instead of getting double WBL, I wouldn't care. I similarly have not complained at all about your use of Font of Inspiration. To beat a dead horse, don't lie about what I have said.

There are thousands of feats, you can bet I won't complain about many of them, so maybe the fact that you choose a disproportionate number of feats that I do complain about is because you choose the cheesiest level of feats possible.

See?

Just answer the following question: Should you Factotum have more wealth in gear then everyone else in the party with no disadvantage except spending a feat?

Holy crap, you just went after EWP: Quickrazor.  You've now whined about every feat I took.  That's hilarious.  Seriously, that part above where I said the only one you hadn't gone after was EWP?  That was before I got here.

Please stop lying about what other people say. It's really annoying. Do I mind that you have a Quickrazor, or course not. I think it's an intelligent choice for anyone intending to build a character devoted to Iajitsu Focus. I complained solely about your use of an item crafted with two contradictory crafting methods.

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Dwarvencraft is simply an amount of quality... it does not require being made by dwarves, and simply represents one step up from Masterwork (though Dwarves created the techniques.  In fact, my Factotum made it himself.  Likewise, Feycraft simply requires working with the fey when you make it, and again, the Factotum did it himself.  And "Gnome Quickrazor" just means the weapon was invented and/or popularized by gnomes.  The whole weapon was done with the aid of magic telling him how to do it (Magecraft).  In other words, to avoid the names and just use the descriptions, the weapon is a very well crafted weapon that's especially lightweight, based on a design originally created by one culture but using smithing techniques of two other cultures to improve the quality.  Now, does a random person finding one of these things make much sense?  Maybe not.  But does a character whose specific abilities make him great at using all kinds of skills combining skills from various areas to make this weapon make sense?  I think so.

Does that make sense to you?  Or is the idea of combining the smithing and crafting ideas of various cultures completely nonsensical?

I have nothing against combining crafting methods with materials with specialty weapons.

I have a problem with an item that is both "lightweight and fragile" because it was constructed so as to be fragile, while simultaneously being constructed to be "stronger ad harder." I think that mutually contradicting crafting methods cannot be employed on the same weapon.

Furthermore, I think it's absolutely retarded that you justify crafting a feycraft item yourself under the assumption you ran into some random fey, had them enchant you, then they told you to do exactly what you wanted to do (craft an item for yourself) and then let you go on your way. All that bullshit just to get around the limitation that "feycraft items can only be made by fey or those under the supernatural influence of fey."

But that's the kind of bullshit that I just have to get used to, since there is not a single aspect of your character that isn't made of cheese.

EDIT: Tshern, can we get a final ruling on Item Familiar/Flaws?

And as regards my rogue, should I build a rogue who does what the factotum does only better? Or should I build him around hurling?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 01:15:09 AM by Kaelik »

Kaelik

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #63 on: November 02, 2008, 01:42:23 AM »
Looking over some of what I have said, I have been a little more confrontational then is warranted.

I think this comes from the fact that more and more this game has been deviating from the type of game that I had envisioned it as, largely because JaronK finds only those games with the maximum exploitation to be worth playing.

As such, I have some propositions:

1) Item Familiars be at the very least strongly encouraged for everyone, possibly even a bonus feat given to everyone.

2) Flaws allowed, usual two max.

3) We ignore all the crazy dumpster diving and shit that JaronK has done, and we actually group pool similar suggestions for other characters if necessary so that all characters are similarly exploitative of the game.

4) We play through a WotC module of level 6 at least, with some general changes to make it a little harder, like feat changes and maybe smarter tactics.

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #64 on: November 02, 2008, 01:52:52 AM »

Perhaps set an optimisation level? Given the parameters nothing JaronK has done is illegal, and while the feats are powerful a.k.a. cheesy, could any OTHER class get as much from them? Isn't this a valid way of comparing the classes?
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JaronK

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #65 on: November 02, 2008, 02:02:40 AM »
And yet, if you used crafting for just getting items instead of getting double WBL, I wouldn't care. I similarly have not complained at all about your use of Font of Inspiration. To beat a dead horse, don't lie about what I have said.

You've talked plenty about FoI abuse.  It's even in the OP of this thread.  If I dropped all those other feats for FoIs, you'd be whining about that.

Meanwhile, what exactly do you think crafting feats are for?  They're for getting the gear you want and getting it cheaper than normal.  Is that strong?  Yes.  And the Factotum class gives you that.  At character creation, you tend to get the items you want anyway, so what you're actually saying is "if you used crafting for getting absolutely nothing instead of double WBL, I wouldn't care."  Yeah, I know.

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There are thousands of feats, you can bet I won't complain about many of them, so maybe the fact that you choose a disproportionate number of feats that I do complain about is because you choose the cheesiest level of feats possible.

Or maybe, just maybe, you came in here expecting to see the Factotum as a weak class, and not realizing that it was quite strong.  Now that you're seeing a perfectly standard one in action, you're suddenly seeing it being much stronger than you thought, and you're whining about it, which is exactly as expected.

You're like someone saying that Fighters can't beat even CR opponents and then crying cheese when someone pulls out Shock Trooper.  

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Just answer the following question: Should you Factotum have more wealth in gear then everyone else in the party with no disadvantage except spending a feat?

Two feats.  Two feats that anyone else in the party could take too, except that the rest wouldn't get nearly as much advantage out of CWI, because they don't have the incredible spell access of the Factotum.  You think they're so powerful?  Take them on your Rogue.  Except, of course, that one of them doesn't work for you.  Oops.  Gee, it's almost like you're finding a weakness of the class.

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Please stop lying about what other people say. It's really annoying. Do I mind that you have a Quickrazor, or course not. I think it's an intelligent choice for anyone intending to build a character devoted to Iajitsu Focus. I complained solely about your use of an item crafted with two contradictory crafting methods.

They're not contradictory, so yes, you're complaining about the weapon that I spent two feats to use (EWP and Item Familiar).  Complaining about the feat and complaining about what I got from the feat is pretty similar.

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I have nothing against combining crafting methods with materials with specialty weapons.

I have a problem with an item that is both "lightweight and fragile" because it was constructed so as to be fragile, while simultaneously being constructed to be "stronger ad harder." I think that mutually contradicting crafting methods cannot be employed on the same weapon.

Wasn't the whole folding of Katanas thing a way of combining metals that were strong but shatterable with more flexible but softer metal?  Same concept here.  Using techniques for making a weapon lighter weight, while combining them with techniques for making them harder, and getting something really good that removes some of the disadvantages of one of the techniques.

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Furthermore, I think it's absolutely retarded that you justify crafting a feycraft item yourself under the assumption you ran into some random fey, had them enchant you, then they told you to do exactly what you wanted to do (craft an item for yourself) and then let you go on your way. All that bullshit just to get around the limitation that "feycraft items can only be made by fey or those under the supernatural influence of fey."

Hey, you haven't asked about the backstory of the character yet.  I happen to like his backstory, actually, and it explains his eclectic set of abilities and his push for self reliance, in addition to the fey influence.

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But that's the kind of bullshit that I just have to get used to, since there is not a single aspect of your character that isn't made of cheese.

Right.  See, that's exactly what I was expecting coming into this.

"Factotums are weak"

"Here's proof they're not"

"But... that's cheesy!"

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And as regards my rogue, should I build a rogue who does what the factotum does only better? Or should I build him around hurling?

Built what you consider to be a good Rogue.  Not sure how you're doing what this Factotum is doing only better, though.  But isn't that the point?  To see how the classes work?

JaronK

Kaelik

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #66 on: November 02, 2008, 02:21:53 AM »
You've talked plenty about FoI abuse.  It's even in the OP of this thread.  If I dropped all those other feats for FoIs, you'd be whining about that.

I have talked about FoI abuse. I have not at any point decried your usage of FoI.

Meanwhile, what exactly do you think crafting feats are for?  They're for getting the gear you want and getting it cheaper than normal.

So in other words, you refuse to answer the question.

Or maybe, just maybe, you came in here expecting to see the Factotum as a weak class, and not realizing that it was quite strong.  Now that you're seeing a perfectly standard one in action, you're suddenly seeing it being much stronger than you thought, and you're whining about it, which is exactly as expected.

"Perfectly Standard?" Are you smoking crack? Your entire character would be a piece of shit if we took away even one of the three obscure little books that I have never even seen that you absolutely rely on. Hell, you've probably never even seen one of those books.

Your build is so far from "standard" that not even a single aspect of it could be called Standard at all.

You're like someone saying that Fighters can't beat even CR opponents and then crying cheese when someone pulls out Shock Trooper.

A fighter can't beat even CRed opponents even with Shocktrooper, because they will kill him without ever letting him charge them.

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Two feats.  Two feats that anyone else in the party could take too, except that the rest wouldn't get nearly as much advantage out of CWI, because they don't have the incredible spell access of the Factotum.  You think they're so powerful?  Take them on your Rogue.  Except, of course, that one of them doesn't work for you.  Oops.  Gee, it's almost like you're finding a weakness of the class.

It's almost like we choose only classes that can't craft and banned all the classes that can craft. Weird how after banning the normal way that people get crafted items, abnormal ways that aren't often used look better.

Now how about answering the question instead of diverting.

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They're not contradictory, so yes, you're complaining about the weapon that I spent two feats to use (EWP and Item Familiar).  Complaining about the feat and complaining about what I got from the feat is pretty similar.

1) They are contradictory.

2) I am not complaining about you using an Adamatium Feycraft Gome Quickrazor. I am not complaining about you using a Adamtium Dwarvencraft Gnome Quickrazor. Only a Feycraft/Dwarvencraft. How on earth is that complaining about you using a Quickrazor? Oh right, it's not, you just wanted to lie about what I said so that you could (falsely) claim that I objected to all your feats. Stop lying.

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Right.  See, that's exactly what I was expecting coming into this.

"Factotums are weak"

"Here's proof they're not"

"But... that's cheesy!"

"Commoners are weak"

"Here's proof they aren't"
*Candle of Invocation*
"But that's cheesy!"

Yes cheese is cheesy, no matter how many times you explain that any DM that wouldn't allow you to have twice the wealth of the rest of the party is a mean old cheater.

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Built what you consider to be a good Rogue.  Not sure how you're doing what this Factotum is doing only better, though.  But isn't that the point?  To see how the classes work?

I thought the point was to demonstrate the effectiveness of the classes in games that are likely to be played, you have pretty much completely thrown that out the window.

Omen of Peace

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #67 on: November 02, 2008, 02:26:22 AM »
I avoided this thread at first because I thought it would just be flames... The flames are there but also some constructive stuff so here a few remarks (but I'm no one for the purpose of this challenge so feel free to ignore me).

- I trust Tshern completely. Go Tshern ! :D
(And good luck with the hornets' nest :smirk)

- JaronK, I generally respect your opinions but the +XP option of Item Familiar is absolutely ridiculous (IF is the second "worst" feat in the game IMO, right after Leadership). If it's taken out, my distaste for the feat goes down to not-quite-unbearable levels.
Have you considered still taking CWI and starting one level below to craft whatever you wanted ?

Or if everybody ends up having it, people should use the PHB2 online article that lets you give your own XP to the crafter. And everyone ends up with the same stupidly inflated WBL.

- on the other hand if I see a Rogue with epic feats...

- Dwarvencraft Feycraft is nonsensical but fine by the rules. Let it be...
« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 02:28:39 AM by Omen of Peace »
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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #68 on: November 02, 2008, 02:32:48 AM »
- on the other hand if I see a Rogue with epic feats...
Should PTWF have been an epic feat in the first place?

TWF = Teh suck.
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JaronK

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #69 on: November 02, 2008, 03:16:43 AM »
You've talked plenty about FoI abuse.  It's even in the OP of this thread.  If I dropped all those other feats for FoIs, you'd be whining about that.

I have talked about FoI abuse. I have not at any point decried your usage of FoI.

And yet, you were whining about FoI abuse at the start of this whole thing, before even seeing the characters.

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Meanwhile, what exactly do you think crafting feats are for?  They're for getting the gear you want and getting it cheaper than normal.

So in other words, you refuse to answer the question.

No, I answered it.  I answered it completely, you just left that out because it wasn't the answer you wanted to hear.

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"Perfectly Standard?" Are you smoking crack? Your entire character would be a piece of shit if we took away even one of the three obscure little books that I have never even seen that you absolutely rely on. Hell, you've probably never even seen one of those books.

Your build is so far from "standard" that not even a single aspect of it could be called Standard at all.

You've evidently never seen a Factotum before.  Which books haven't you seen?  Dungeonscape, perhaps?  Races of Stone?  Unearthed Arcana (which is SRD!)? DMG II?  Well, I'll grant you the character sucks without Dungeonscape at least...

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A fighter can't beat even CRed opponents even with Shocktrooper, because they will kill him without ever letting him charge them.

...seriously?  Check out the Commoner I made for the arena.  He can take even CR opponents easily.  Now, make that as a Fighter and it only gets better.

I can't believe you're actually claiming Fighters can't beat even CRed opponents.  That's just dumb.

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It's almost like we choose only classes that can't craft and banned all the classes that can craft. Weird how after banning the normal way that people get crafted items, abnormal ways that aren't often used look better.

Or weird how the class that can make his own gear gets better gear.  Yeah, that's... weird?

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Now how about answering the question instead of diverting.

It's perfectly fair that a class that's a perfectly good crafting class can end up with better gear because he makes his own gear.

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"Commoners are weak"

"Here's proof they aren't"
*Candle of Invocation*
"But that's cheesy!"

Yes cheese is cheesy, no matter how many times you explain that any DM that wouldn't allow you to have twice the wealth of the rest of the party is a mean old cheater.

Actually, the Commoner I made didn't use Candles.  He used Shocktrooper, Spirited Charge, and a high initiative.  And no, it's not cheating to make use of class abilities. 

But yes, now you want to nerf the fact that Factotums can craft gear with Craft Wonderous Items.  And we're back to "Factotums are weak because I would nerf them!"

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I thought the point was to demonstrate the effectiveness of the classes in games that are likely to be played, you have pretty much completely thrown that out the window.

Once again... this is the character as designed for an actual game, whether you like that or not.  I know you can't accept it because it destroys your entire arguement, but this character is well within the defined limits of this challenge.

JaronK

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #70 on: November 02, 2008, 03:43:39 AM »
- I trust Tshern completely. Go Tshern ! :D
(And good luck with the hornets' nest :smirk)
Back in the day in the junior officer school we had a training where we were issued three full clips of real ammunition. We were issued a pair and we charged and shot down emerging targets. At one point I had a look at my pair who was around 30 feet away from me. He was crawling with safety off and his barrel was aimed straight at my face. I am feeling more confident about this game...

In general, I am not against Dwarvencraft and Feycraft. If a person who is neither a fey or dwarf crafts a weapon and is able to combine the best of both worlds, why would he not do it? The same way vikings combied German arms to their war techniques and Finns used the best sides of American and Russian weapons for their assault rifles. Only makes sense for a smart character, that a Factotum with a high intelligence score definitely is.

Edit: Sorry about the Finnish example, I did not mean to sound patriotic, but it was the only one I knew for sure without double-checking. Damn alcohol.
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Kaelik

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #71 on: November 02, 2008, 04:05:45 AM »
No, I answered it.  I answered it completely, you just left that out because it wasn't the answer you wanted to hear.

No you didn't. I would love to see either answer, but you won't give me either one.

You've evidently never seen a Factotum before.  Which books haven't you seen?  Dungeonscape, perhaps?  Races of Stone?  Unearthed Arcana (which is SRD!)? DMG II?  Well, I'll grant you the character sucks without Dungeonscape at least...

How about a 3.0 campaign specific book you never even seen, much less owned. How about yes, Races of Stone and DMG II. I suppose you actually buy a book filled with shit just so that you can save yourself a feat on some weird crafted crap, so what. Normal people don't.

...seriously?  Check out the Commoner I made for the arena.  He can take even CR opponents easily.  Now, make that as a Fighter and it only gets better.

Seriously, you still automatically loose to a CR 16 Planetar who you never see. Or automatically 50% of the time to a Balor at level 20 when you get stunned every round, and with a good chance of losing the rest of the time. You don't even know that most of these characters are there until after they kill you.

I don't know why you think that every fight starts with rolling Init from 10ft away.

Or weird how the class that can make his own gear gets better gear.  Yeah, that's... weird?

Weird how every class can get the same thing.

It's perfectly fair that a class that's a perfectly good crafting class can end up with better gear because he makes his own gear.

When you say "better" do you mean of greater value? Are you stating that you should receive no other disadvantages, like lost XP?

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Actually, the Commoner I made didn't use Candles.  He used Shocktrooper, Spirited Charge, and a high initiative.  And no, it's not cheating to make use of class abilities.

Yes, he wasn't cheesy (okay, the cheese wasn't very bad), he was also weak. My point is simple, you refuse to accept that cheese exists.

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But yes, now you want to nerf the fact that Factotums can craft gear with Craft Wonderous Items.  And we're back to "Factotums are weak because I would nerf them!"

Everyone can get crafted gear. Anyone can get it.

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Once again... this is the character as designed for an actual game, whether you like that or not.  I know you can't accept it because it destroys your entire arguement, but this character is well within the defined limits of this challenge.

1) Can you please spell argument correctly just once.

2) Can be played in one specific game =/= normally playable.

I can link you to a game dedicated to playing characters that use Gate loops, and are invincible. That doesn't mean that those characters are playable in real games.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 04:07:37 AM by Kaelik »

Omen of Peace

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #72 on: November 02, 2008, 04:11:19 AM »
Seriously, you still automatically loose to a CR 16 Planetar who you never see.
[...]
1) Can you please spell argument correctly just once.
(emphasis added)
When you make that horrible, horrible mistake you loose the right to complain about orthograph. ;)

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Seriously, JaronK, lose the IF. I very much doubt everybody is biased against the Factotum here so respect the vote.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 04:14:14 AM by Omen of Peace »
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Straw_Man

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #73 on: November 02, 2008, 04:13:41 AM »
Kaelik you started this thread, but this is getting increasing confrontational. will either you or Tshern set an optimisation level please? I would like to see the actual 'run' of the classes, instead of debates about cheese.
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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #74 on: November 02, 2008, 04:15:21 AM »
Rather him than me, I am trying to keep my hands out of the rules. When the game kicks off I'll be running it, but that's it. I don't want to be involved in anything that might actually affect the tiers of optimization.
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JaronK

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #75 on: November 02, 2008, 04:45:04 AM »
- JaronK, I generally respect your opinions but the +XP option of Item Familiar is absolutely ridiculous (IF is the second "worst" feat in the game IMO, right after Leadership). If it's taken out, my distaste for the feat goes down to not-quite-unbearable levels.
Have you considered still taking CWI and starting one level below to craft whatever you wanted ?

The issue with that one is that we don't know how much exp we have past the exact point of level 10... I mean, do I level up halfway through or something?  Or, since you're rarely at the actual point of the leveling, do I have enough Exp to have shot up anyway?  Plus, there's the whole thing of "if you're lower level, you gain exp faster and thus get it back really fast, and thus might only be behind for short periods."  I wanted the 10% option just to be done with it, you know?  So we can say "whatever, crafting done."  Besides, starting the game right before the adventure hides the other thing about crafting, namely that you don't have to deal with getting random gear and then having to sell it at half price to get the gear you need, and thus actually being below WBL when you have the exact gear you want.

Meanwhile, starting a level lower means not having the same wealth by level, which defeats the purpose entirely.  Now, could I just drop CWI entirely?  Sure.  I'd probably replace it with Darkstalker, which would obviously help, and my Dex and Int would go down by 2, plus I'd probably lose Blurstrike on the Familiar.  It wouldn't be the same character concept (and it wouldn't be the character

And yes, if I were doing this as part of a real party and using the PHBII option, I'd be crafting for my whole party as well, which I could do here... but it would hide how much contribution is coming from whom.  I mean, sure, if people want they can say I crafted their gear and they gave me Exp, and while it'll make things harder as we can't say whether the Rogue's contribution was because he got so much extra gear or not, it'll simply show off one ability.

I mean, the character I made uses nothing dodgy.  There's no weird rules interpretations or even tricks I'd consider broken (like casting Major Creation as a Standard Action and dumping Black Lotus all over the enemy, which is a perfectly valid Factotum trick).  It's just a Factotum that's independant.  Okay, Item Familiar is strong, but I never thought for a moment it would be disallowed for anyone else, and it's totally within the challenge.

But walking into this I was expecting that if I came in with a character that was actually strong in a thread specifically designed to see if Factotums are strong, I'd get a whole bunch of whining that it wasn't fair despite completely being within the rules of the challenge.  And what did I get?  Exactly that.  Which is crap.

JaronK

JaronK

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #76 on: November 02, 2008, 04:49:29 AM »
Seriously, JaronK, lose the IF. I very much doubt everybody is biased against the Factotum here so respect the vote.

I thought the DM had said it was okay.  If he says no, I'll remove it.  It's conceptually important, but in the end I can always trade it (and the 10kgp spent on it) for a mundane version of the weapon and a ring of +10 Iajuitsu Focus or something, plus Darkstalker.  We need to see about flaws too.

The issue here, however, is that Kaelik has at this point spoken negatively, sometimes in a roundabout way, about every single feat I've taken.  Drop IF, and I'd put good odds he'll keep whining about CWI.  Swap that for Fonts, and he'll cry Font abuse.  Swap out all the feats for Skill Focus: Basketweaving and he'll still be whining that Dwarvencraft Feycraft items are horrible, because using construction techniques from multiple cultures is evidently impossible.  That suggests that this isn't about the Item Familiar at all... it's about him wanting an excuse for why the Factotum he's seeing isn't a weak character at all.

JaronK

JaronK

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #77 on: November 02, 2008, 04:55:46 AM »
No, I answered it.  I answered it completely, you just left that out because it wasn't the answer you wanted to hear.

No you didn't. I would love to see either answer, but you won't give me either one.

I answered it again in the same post. 

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How about a 3.0 campaign specific book you never even seen, much less owned. How about yes, Races of Stone and DMG II. I suppose you actually buy a book filled with shit just so that you can save yourself a feat on some weird crafted crap, so what. Normal people don't.

Ah right.  "Normal People don't have the books I don't have."  Newsflash: normal people don't have Dungeonscape either.  Nor do they have D&D books.  You're arguing about D&D on the internet: you're not normal.  However, gamers who have Dungeonscape are just as likely to have other random books.

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Seriously, you still automatically loose to a CR 16 Planetar who you never see. Or automatically 50% of the time to a Balor at level 20 when you get stunned every round, and with a good chance of losing the rest of the time. You don't even know that most of these characters are there until after they kill you.

Please explain how the Planetar kills the Commoner I listed.  Note that the Commoner wins initative, and is virtually gaurenteed to kill in one hit (and he WILL hit).  For that matter, please explain how the CR 20 Balor kills the 17th level Commoner, again when he loses initiative most of the time.

Or are you thinking only arena fighting where the Commoner is by himself?  In which case, he knows the enemies are there.  Or is it in a group situation, where someone else can spot, and the Commoner just charges?

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I don't know why you think that every fight starts with rolling Init from 10ft away.

I don't.  Check out the flight speed on the Roc.

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Or weird how the class that can make his own gear gets better gear.  Yeah, that's... weird?

Weird how every class can get the same thing.

...please explain how a Rogue can make his own magical gear.  Note I was talking about Craft Wonderous Items.

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When you say "better" do you mean of greater value? Are you stating that you should receive no other disadvantages, like lost XP?

I accounted for that in the character.

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Yes, he wasn't cheesy (okay, the cheese wasn't very bad), he was also weak. My point is simple, you refuse to accept that cheese exists.

I fully accept that cheese exists.   However, I do NOT claim that everything that opposes my point of view is cheesy, ESPECIALLY in a thread specifically designed to test power levels of characters.  Nor do I claim cheese after I personally set the rules of the challenge.

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Everyone can get crafted gear. Anyone can get it.

You're assuming all parties have someone else in them to do it for them.  Not everyone takes those feats... I know I regularly don't (but with Factotums, I do).  Rogues, for example, can't do it without help.

JaronK

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #78 on: November 02, 2008, 06:15:13 AM »
(like casting Major Creation as a Standard Action and dumping Black Lotus all over the enemy, which is a perfectly valid Factotum trick)
I think you mean Minor Creation. Major would require a Greater Shadow Conjuration which you wouldn't get at the levels tested here.

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Okay, Item Familiar is strong, but I never thought for a moment it would be disallowed for anyone else, and it's totally within the challenge.
That's where we disagree. I know you said your DM has allowed it, but honestly no DM I've played with has ever ok'ed it as-is. And I've played in some pretty overpowered games, often online (which implies that people don't care about the other players... and try to sneak IF in).

I realize it's even better for Factotums than their competitors here, but it doesn't mean it's against the Factotum if it's not allowed. Anyway, I've spoken my piece and I'll leave it at that.
Silanah heard their songs and prayers. And she watched. Sometimes mortals did indeed forget. Sometimes, mortals needed… reminding…
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

JaronK

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #79 on: November 02, 2008, 06:24:37 AM »
I think you mean Minor Creation. Major would require a Greater Shadow Conjuration which you wouldn't get at the levels tested here.

Nope, I mean Major, and I didn't mean the Shadow version.  Spell Like Abilities are always Standard Actions unless otherwise noted, so all Factotum spells are standard actions.  Yehaw!  Of course, that's a negative sometimes (Wraithstrike) but a positive other times (Animate Dead, Major Creation).  And when it's a positive, sometimes it's a REALLY big positive.  But I was avoiding such tricks, and sticking to what I thought was fair.

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That's where we disagree. I know you said your DM has allowed it, but honestly no DM I've played with has ever ok'ed it as-is. And I've played in some pretty overpowered games, often online (which implies that people don't care about the other players... and try to sneak IF in).

I realize it's even better for Factotums than their competitors here, but it doesn't mean it's against the Factotum if it's not allowed. Anyway, I've spoken my piece and I'll leave it at that.

Well, if the DM says no, I'll remove it.  I'd have done so already if I though Kae would be happy with just that, but if he wants me to completely change every feat until the Factotum becomes suitably weak (and considering his shots against every feat I took, even if some were roundabout), I think that might simply not help.  I get the funny feeling that once Item Familiar goes, Craft Wonderous Item will have to go next, and I can't replace them with Fonts, and eventually what I'll get is whatever Kae thought was weak enough that he gets to claim victory.  But what's the point?

JaronK