Author Topic: Factotum Challenge.  (Read 16501 times)

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Ubernoob

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2008, 12:52:37 AM »
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2252.0
First line, second sentence.

Are we sure Tshern is completely impartial?  It looks like he actually helped me make the tiers.

Good point. Was Tshern involved in the placement of the factotum?
Not directly.  Frank gave the "psssst, look at what it can actually do" that made me go "duh" and switch swordsage, rogue, and factotum around.
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Kaelik

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2008, 12:59:59 AM »
1) I pretty much count his post as a perfect example of being a dick. I think informing other people that they aren't having fun is a huge dick move.

2) Well, if JaronK trusts you integrity we are fine, otherwise I consider Omen of Peace a good choice, assuming we can get him. It probably shouldn't be that big a deal either way though. And unlike Omen, you have volunteered.

3) Hey Uber/Tshern, either of you care to state your opinion on Item Familiar? Get this over with. I didn't think I was crazy to find Item Familiar crazy.

4) Tshern, check your PM box for info.


Tshern

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2008, 01:01:56 AM »
1. Point taken.
2. Oh yes, JaronK's opinion would be nice.
3. Crazy to me as well...
4. I'll answer tomorrow, just going to bed.
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Kaelik

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2008, 01:05:18 AM »
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that unanimous except for JaronK that Item Familiar is bad means Item Familiar not allowed. You can still go ahead and buy a Masterwork sheathe for a little bonus. Further, you forgot this line: "Be usable by the character (if it is a weapon, the character must be proficient with the appropriate category of weapon)." Which would switch around your feat order, and greatly reduce the number of skill ranks you could have invested.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 01:13:48 AM by Kaelik »

Ubernoob

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2008, 01:11:07 AM »
Item familiars are stupid.  "I spent a feat to get extra XP!" is not a valid mechanic.

Plus, that sheet is illegal.  There's no fucking way he can afford all those skill points AND dumping 39 ranks into three skills for the item familiar.

Really, JaronK.  Learn the rules.  You've got to know the rules to play the game.  Not knowing the rules is why I keep calling you an idiot.
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Kaelik

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2008, 01:16:28 AM »
Hey Uber, you know I'm a big fan of calling people on shit, but that post is just wrong.

He's a Human Factotum, he get's a lot of skill points. And while I would have thought (had I thought about Item Familiar at all) that it is total bullshit and no one would actually suggest using it, it is legal, both per the normal rules and the list of houserules at the time. Personal hatred is fine, but this is not the time.

So while you can call bullshit like I did on it, and especially with CWI comboed, it is still legal. He knows the rules, he just has no shame about twisting them as much as possible.

And for the entirety of this game, if he chooses to continue playing in it. I want you both to point out each others problems relating to this challenge like good little Piazoians would, and no namecalling.

And you aren't allowed to have a problem with his skill points until you have personally calculated them yourself.

JaronK, that's one reason I asked you to separate enhancement bonus to scores from others.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 01:24:48 AM by Kaelik »

Tshern

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2008, 01:19:01 AM »
Should skill points be counted based on the final intelligence score (minus enchantment bonus of course) or should level bumps be taken into account?
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Kaelik

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2008, 01:23:16 AM »
I always go for no retroactive skill points. If I have to calculate that shit every time I do a Wizard, then they have to do the same.

These characters should in general be a progression, so it shouldn't be that big a deal.

TheWordSlinger

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2008, 01:24:07 AM »
I give you, Barsa Gladia!
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Ubernoob

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2008, 01:25:01 AM »
Hey Uber, you know I'm a big fan of being a mean, but let's keep it out of this game.

He's a Human Factotum, he get's a lot of skill points. And while I would have thought (had I thought about Item Familiar at all) that it is total bullshit and no one would actually suggest using it, it is legal, both per the normal rules and the list of houserules at the time. Personal hatred is fine, but this is not the time.
No, no.  The sheet is illegal.  Let me run it down for you:
9 skills maxed
Various skills spread around to the equivalent of a bit over 2 skills maxed
6 skills maxed out invested in item familiar (that's the equivalent of 18 skills maxed)

That's more than 29 skills maxed effectively.
Now, factotums get 6+int.
Make that human for 7+int.

This means that at some point he had to have at least a +19 int mod that doesn't come from temporary bonuses.



Yes, JaronK was either:
A) Cheating.
B) Not even knowing how the mechanic works.


I don't call bullshit unless it is bullshit and I'm tired of JaronK not knowing what he's talking about.





Sorry for the rant, but knowing the rules is kind of a pet peeve of mine.  I'll keep direct insults out of if here.
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Kaelik

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2008, 01:35:20 AM »
1) I realize I never said how to generate HP, take average for everything after level 1. Round up when doing the level 10 character, though that doesn't apply now.

2) TheWordSlinger: I believe Barsa has 2PB unspent that you can add somewhere, and an inherent bonus to a stat. I think you also forgot your human skill point to spend.

3) Uber. You aren't reading the Item Familiar points right. He's saying he invested 6 of his 9 maxxed skills in the Item Familiar, and then used the points to apply bonuses to 2 others.

He only has, assuming your addition of various skills is correct, 11 skills maxxed, which equates to a +4 Int mod, which is correct for starting. So that a bit over on the Various is just level 8-10 where he has a +5 Int.

For someone complaining about not knowing the rules, you should probably read the Item Familiar rules before saying that.

Ubernoob

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2008, 01:51:38 AM »
3) Uber. You aren't reading the Item Familiar points right. He's saying he invested 6 of his 9 maxxed skills in the Item Familiar, and then used the points to apply bonuses to 2 others.

He only has, assuming your addition of various skills is correct, 11 skills maxxed, which equates to a +4 Int mod, which is correct for starting. So that a bit over on the Various is just level 8-10 where he has a +5 Int.

For someone complaining about not knowing the rules, you should probably read the Item Familiar rules before saying that.
That's not what I'm reading at all.  I'll let JaronK explain his notation.
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TheWordSlinger

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2008, 02:01:55 AM »
2) TheWordSlinger: I believe Barsa has 2PB unspent that you can add somewhere, and an inherent bonus to a stat. I think you also forgot your human skill point to spend.
Fixed it.
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Kaelik

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2008, 02:15:05 AM »
That's not what I'm reading at all.  I'll let JaronK explain his notation.

I don't need him to explain his notation, because I can see it, understand it, have individually counted each skill point and each bonus, and have determined it is correct.

However, all that is moot, since the character he should have built is level 5, and by a currently unanimous vote Item Familiar has been disbarred.

Ubernoob

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2008, 03:19:55 AM »
That's not what I'm reading at all.  I'll let JaronK explain his notation.

I don't need him to explain his notation, because I can see it, understand it, have individually counted each skill point and each bonus, and have determined it is correct.

However, all that is moot, since the character he should have built is level 5, and by a currently unanimous vote Item Familiar has been disbarred.
Point.
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JaronK

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2008, 10:04:06 PM »
See, this is why I found this concept silly.

Uber, you don't actually know the rules.  Not even a little tiny bit.  In this case, what you don't know is that Item Familiar's invested points still count as ranks for you, the only downside is that loss of the familiar makes you lose those points (which is why it's adamantine and a weapon that can be slieght of handed onto the body to keep it safe).  The Factotum in question has, for his first 7 levels, 11 skill points per level, and then for the last 3 he has 12 skill points per level, because he's human.  Look at the ranks given, and you can see that it's correct.  But at always, you just yell and bawl and argue from ignorance.

Though it amuses me to learn what I suspected all along... the reason you couldn't get how Factotums work is you don't know them, you just heard what Frank told you and repeated it as your own.  Parroting, again?

Meanwhile, we're getting to see a little Rogue vs Factotum thing on the other forums, and what did we get?  A Rogue who was completely illegal and can't even compete.  We'll see if he can fix it up to actually being legal.

And what objections do I get here?  Whining about using Craft Wonderous Item, despite the fact that not only is it legal, it's an example of a feat you can take if you only have spell like abilities (Complete Arcane, page 72).  It's not only RAW, it's actually stated RAI.  And as for the exp used?  Surely you know that if you ever get lower than your party in exp, you get more, which corrects for it... plus the Item Familiar gives me an extra 10% exp since level 3, which pays for the exp used.  And yes, according to the rules of the challenge, Item Familiars are legal.  In the end, it all just looks like a bunch of "hey wait, Rogues can't do that and I want to prove Factotums are weaker than Rogues.  Not allowed!"

But hey, I do love that you decide for democracy to vote in a clearly biased group.  Yeesh.

JaronK

Ubernoob

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2008, 10:21:25 PM »
Not replying to troll.
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AfterCrescent

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2008, 10:35:48 PM »
This is the kind of shit that's not needed here.

The PbP area, if not all of BG, is meant to be an open and fun place where people come to have fun, not be giant ass-hats.

1) Take your damn arguments elsewhere. If you want to have a combat only challenge, do so, but without being an ass.
2) Stop taking internet arguments so damn seriously that they turn into personal attacks. Not everyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. Not everyone who makes mistakes is an idiot. And not everyone who you don't like is a troll.
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TheWordSlinger

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2008, 10:50:00 PM »
JaronK, I think the problem we're having is that this character has an abundances of various misc bonuses to skills that are getting mashed together into one 'misc bonus' column. From levels 3 to 10 you have 102 skill points to invest in your Item Familiar, which gives you a total of 34 unnamed "+1's" to apply to your skills as you see fit.
This is assuming you put every single rank into your familiar, which may not be such a great call...
Also, you have 146 total ranks possible and have only spent 145, have fun  :D
Looking over it again, and attempting to account for the misc bonuses I see, I notice 102 total bonus points, so it's possible that the problem is that the Item Familiar gives a 3:1 return on invested skills, whereas you think it's 1:1.
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Tshern

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2008, 11:46:21 PM »
I do think Item familiars are damn powerful and the +10 XP thing really makes my brain hurt. However, JaronK is mostly using it for Iajitsu focus, which is just extra damage. It doesn't really even do that much more damage than Craven, which is a basic component of sneak attacking Rogues. For the purposes of the test, we might just as well allow it and simply take the effects of Iajitsu focus into account if/when we analyze how much each character contributed.
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