Author Topic: Factotum Challenge.  (Read 16528 times)

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Kaelik

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #120 on: November 03, 2008, 10:10:39 PM »
First of all, note that my other build took the Item Familiar at 6.  I didn't drop it, it simply isn't in the build yet.

No, you quite clearly had it at level 3, and in fact, you could not have invested as many skill points as you did if you had taken it at level 6. So either Uber was right in that you had too many skill points invested in your familiar, or you had it at level 3.

Quote from: JaronK
Second, your build isn't RAW.  It can't even carry it's own gear without being encumbered, but you seem to have just hand waved weight away... something you shouldn't do on a strength 6 halfling.

Wrong, I quite clearly can carry my armor, my buckler, and my haversack, weighing 6.25, 2.5, and 5 pounds respectively, all at once. It limits the number of flasks I can have actively on my body to 5, but that is why I have my haversack attached to my mount, giving me room for 10 flasks without becoming even lightly encumbered.

Care to try again?

Quote from: JaronK
Third, I'm not saying it's wrong for you to optimize.   If Tshern says it's kosher, it is.  I'm saying it's hypocritical for you to criticize me for practical optimization, then go off the deep end and optimize like crazy.

Please, Please, Someone Please explain to me how what JaronK did was "practical optimization" but what I did was "even more cheese" or "off the deep end."

Please, Was it taking feats that provide nearly no benefit? Was it combining a Halfling with Hurling? Was it Item Familiar? (God knows I can't see how that makes a difference, since JaronK demanded it be allowed.) Was it taking the Halfling Racial sub level with my Halfling?

Please, someone tell me what grievous sin I have committed that makes my build so crazy, so insane, so abnormal, that JaronK, a man who has argued that Polymorph really does give spellcasting and that should totally be taken into account since it is used in most games finds my build so over the top outrageously repulsive that I am decried for it.

Tshern

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #121 on: November 03, 2008, 10:17:00 PM »
Now when I seem to be the DM we probably need a new adventure. Unfortunately I have little to no knowledge about read adventures, so if any person not related to this challenge but happens to be reading the thread could point me to one, I'd be happy.
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Kaelik

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #122 on: November 03, 2008, 10:23:22 PM »
Well I suggest we play one designed for higher level characters since we are apparently optimizing quite a deal.

The one I was going to use was just an altered free one from the WotC website. We could do one for level 6 or 7 from the same place.

If JaronK doesn't have a problem with it, there are lots of non-official WotC modules that you can find just by googling appropriately.

AfterCrescent

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #123 on: November 03, 2008, 10:33:09 PM »
I agree with Kaelik, WotC published adventures should be simple enough.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b&page=1

Take your pick, Tshern. :D
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Tshern

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #124 on: November 03, 2008, 10:34:50 PM »
I'll pick a level 6 or 7 adventure, if everyone agrees with the prospect.
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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #125 on: November 03, 2008, 10:37:27 PM »
Now when I seem to be the DM we probably need a new adventure. Unfortunately I have little to no knowledge about read adventures, so if any person not related to this challenge but happens to be reading the thread could point me to one, I'd be happy.
I've been lurking on this thread since about the beginning...
Seeing as you guys apparantly want to start at around level 5-6, may I suggest The Red Hand of Doom?
It's quite a challenging adventure with different types of enemies and encounters, so it should be able to help you in determing which classes are strong and which are weak and since this is going to be a optimization-savvy party I think a somewhat challenging adventure could be a good thing :)

Back to lurking and seeing how these classes will do in an actual campaign :)


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Tshern

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #126 on: November 03, 2008, 10:39:35 PM »
Under consideration, thanks for the tip!
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Kaelik

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #127 on: November 03, 2008, 10:43:51 PM »
Well, Red Hand of Doom might be nice, but the problem I see is that the original plan was to play at only a few levels, to increase the likelihood of getting a result soon, rather then playing at level 5 and 6, despite very little change between the too, or 9 and 10, which are much the same.

While the level pattern I had of 5/10/15 might not be the best, it does at least promise little redundancy in testing.

I don't mind doing Red Hand because I'm about 3/4ths treating this as an actual game for fun, and I have heard about Red Hand before and would like to play it, but I also wouldn't say no to skipping several levels.

JaronK

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #128 on: November 03, 2008, 10:47:26 PM »
No, you quite clearly had it at level 3, and in fact, you could not have invested as many skill points as you did if you had taken it at level 6. So either Uber was right in that you had too many skill points invested in your familiar, or you had it at level 3.

You pointed out a while ago that I needed to take EWP first, and I can't take that at level 1 (requires BAB +1).  So I swapped it.  Then I changed the invested points accordingly.  I've been updating.  Uber didn't say anything about levels to take it at... he just didn't know how Item Familiars work.

Quote
Wrong, I quite clearly can carry my armor, my buckler, and my haversack, weighing 6.25, 2.5, and 5 pounds respectively, all at once. It limits the number of flasks I can have actively on my body to 5, but that is why I have my haversack attached to my mount, giving me room for 10 flasks without becoming even lightly encumbered.

Care to try again?

This is going to get hilarious when you can't be on your mount.    Your weight capacity is of course 15 pounds before encumberance, as a Str 6 halfling.  Your armour buckler and haversack put you at 13.75... and you forgot to add clothing to that... the lightest you can do would be the peasant's outfit or monk's outfit at .5 pounds, putting you at 14.25 before you even pull out a weapon.  And of course that's not counting the cloak or any other gear you've got written on your sheet as worn... you're probably already over weight.  Pull out those Thieve's Tools to deal with a lock or trap and you're encumbered.  Same thing happens if you have even a single vial out ready to throw.

Even with the bag on your mount, you can't have many vials ready for combat.  And without your mount, you're screwed.

I think you're the one who needs to try again.  I think you forgot that small creatures have their capacity reduced.

Quote
Please, Please, Someone Please explain to me how what JaronK did was "practical optimization" but what I did was "even more cheese" or "off the deep end."

Please, Was it taking feats that provide nearly no benefit? Was it combining a Halfling with Hurling? Was it Item Familiar? (God knows I can't see how that makes a difference, since JaronK demanded it be allowed.) Was it taking the Halfling Racial sub level with my Halfling?

I'll explain it for you then.  I started with a character concept (independent flexible character who uses stealth, intelligence, and tools he makes to solve his problems).  Then I picked a few good feats that followed that concept.  Maybe you didn't like... well, all of them, but that's what I did.  I didn't go overboard with any of them... you'll notice that the Item Familiar isn't making me higher level than the party, or being used as a crazy custom item.  It's just a magic weapon that gives me extra skill ranks, in the end, and balances out crafting exp (which may not have been necessary anyway).  Then I grabbed a mount that's a domesticated mount already, and the only one I felt could actually go where I wanted my character to be able to go (namely, nearly everywhere).

You, meanwhile, started out with a theoretical build concept (the potion thrower Rogue, which basically no one plays due to the technical difficulties of lugging around all those explosives, which have to be on your body and which you have to buy more of all the time and let's face it, in the end you're just a lame version of a Master Thrower with Weak Spot).  Then you tried to optimize it, but forgot to deal with stuff like weight.  And then you went for a mount type that gets bandied about as the best low level attack critter... but which is NOT a domesticated creature, making the idea of actually having one bizarre.  Now, can this critter do stealth?  No, and since you can't even carry your gear without it, neither can you now.  You've managed to turn a Rogue into a one trick pony that relies on a custom at will casting item (dunno if that's going to be legal), with horrible gear reliance.  

Now, I was willing to drop the Item Familiar, but only if you'd lay off everything else, or if Tshern said I ought to.  But notice what he said about the Item Familiar... that it was okay because I wasn't actually doing anything insane with it.  So what did you do?  Go for a custom at will casting of grease on it.  

Quote
Please, someone tell me what grievous sin I have committed that makes my build so crazy, so insane, so abnormal, that JaronK, a man who has argued that Polymorph really does give spellcasting and that should totally be taken into account since it is used in most games finds my build so over the top outrageously repulsive that I am decried for it.

I said Polymorph's casting thing should be nerfed, but should be counted as a demonstration of the power of a class by RAW because it's at the peak of the graduated power of the class.  That's really different.

Look, fix your build, and try to be less of a hypocrite.  Right now you can't even do stealth at all because you're tied to your dinosaur.  

JaronK

AfterCrescent

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #129 on: November 03, 2008, 10:57:25 PM »
JaronK, a technical note. The clothing you wear does not count against encumberance, assuming it is one of the basic outfits you get for free. Page 131 of the PHB for reference.
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JaronK

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #130 on: November 03, 2008, 11:00:04 PM »
Neat!  Never knew that.  Okay,that's .5 pounds off Kaelik's encumbrance... still a critical issue though if he doesn't want to run around with penalties.

JaronK

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #131 on: November 03, 2008, 11:35:47 PM »
Now when I seem to be the DM we probably need a new adventure. Unfortunately I have little to no knowledge about read adventures, so if any person not related to this challenge but happens to be reading the thread could point me to one, I'd be happy.
I've been lurking on this thread since about the beginning...
Seeing as you guys apparantly want to start at around level 5-6, may I suggest The Red Hand of Doom?
It's quite a challenging adventure with different types of enemies and encounters, so it should be able to help you in determing which classes are strong and which are weak and since this is going to be a optimization-savvy party I think a somewhat challenging adventure could be a good thing :)

Back to lurking and seeing how these classes will do in an actual campaign :)


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Tshern

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #132 on: November 04, 2008, 12:34:30 AM »
Good to know, I won't have time to modify too much. I'll be optimizing your opponents tough. Probably.
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Tshern

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #133 on: November 04, 2008, 01:12:17 AM »
Quote from: Kaelik
(The Iajitsu focused Factotum, which basically no one plays due to the  difficulties of finding out about a 3.0 campaign specific skill in a book few people have even heard of outside forums dedicated to min-maxing, and let's face it, in the end you're just a lame version of a Rogue).
Incidentally, a friend of mine has some weird obsession with Oriental Adventures. He has never visited the CO boards and he hyped it even before I went to 339. Just a funny story, I am staying neutral in this argument.
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AfterCrescent

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #134 on: November 04, 2008, 01:41:49 AM »
Knock it the fuck off.

You've all been warned. I'm not going to waste more of my time pruning this bullshit. If the pissing contest continues, this thread will be closed.

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Kaelik

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #135 on: November 04, 2008, 04:56:12 AM »
Knock it the fuck off.

You've all been warned. I'm not going to waste more of my time pruning this bullshit. If the pissing contest continues, this thread will be closed.

No one cares how big your e-peen is.


Why do you only "Prune" my statements that are directly equivalent to JaronKs? Why is it okay for him to insult me, but you have to delete my post. Seriously, you demanded that I be objective in everything I say, you could at least have the decency to try it yourself.

Not to mention deleting my entire discussion of weight for no fucking reason.

I think I'll take you up on that offer.

JaronK

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #136 on: November 04, 2008, 06:16:09 AM »
I'm not insulting you.  I'm telling you, the character you're making for this contest is not currently functional, or at least not how you think it is (the weight issue).  Furthermore, it's unclear where your character is getting that +10 to UMD from, among other things.  I stated where all the bonuses for my character come from, and addressed your concerns via the character (including shuffling my feats when you correctly pointed out that I needed EWP to come first)... the least you could do is afford the same courtesy.

I don't know yet whether the grease thing is going to be legal (Tshern's call).  Since he stated Item Familiar was okay with the cavat that he did so because I wasn't being particularly abusive about it (only gaining bonuses to Iajuitsu Focus and a cheaper weapon, really), it's not clear whether he'll be okay with a completely custom thing like that (and obviously, if he is I'd want to go for one that casts Wraithstrike, which matches what you're doing... but I'm not even using an Item Familiar until the character hits level 6).

The fact that I find your tactics in this thread strange is pretty irrelevant, all in all.  The fact that there's some issues with the character, however, is very relevant, and needs to be addressed before we can begin.  So, can you deal with those issues?  Or do you want to start with a character that will indeed be at medium load much of the time, including having serious difficulties when he can't have his mount nearby (something that I see happening a lot in many games)?  I mean, the grease casting thing needs to be addressed no matter what, obviously.

@Tshern: I've found that seems to be very common, actually.  If someone has a few really rare books, OA is usually one of them.  I think it's the general obsession with Japanese fantasy that's so common among gamers.  Heck, UE comes up a good deal too.

I have not read RHoD, by the way.

JaronK

Kaelik

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #137 on: November 04, 2008, 06:30:17 AM »
The fact that there's some issues with the character, however, is very relevant, and needs to be addressed before we can begin.

I did address it. Unfortunately my post was deleted by a moderator.

I promise I will repost it as soon as I have confirmation that I am allowed to tell you that you are wrong without my posts being deleted.

Long story short, my post was deleted for including equivalent statements to your own. Because when you say, it's okay, and when I say it, it's a personal attack.

I personally believe that neither post was a personal attack, but if my deleted post was, then your is as well, since they say nearly the same thing.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 06:32:01 AM by Kaelik »

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #138 on: November 04, 2008, 06:52:09 AM »
Deleted posts are moved to the Garbage sub-forum - so no need to retype stuff.
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JaronK

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #139 on: November 04, 2008, 08:24:57 AM »
Hmm, didn't expect that to get deleted.

Okay, well, trying to keep this as civil as possible, the weight problem exists.  I looked at the character, and with your armor, your buckler, and your backpack you're about 1 lb away from encumbrance.  I'm aware of the weight of halfling items, and also aware that a strength 6 halfling can only hold 15 pounds before getting into trouble.  Since you didn't write the weight of your other stuff (the camo cloak for example) I can't be exactly sure of the extent of it, but it none the less is a serious issue.

Look, just raise the strength of the halfling and lower some other stat, and you should mostly be okay... just hope that your mount can always be close, because you're going to have serious troubles if you two are seperated (which I find happens a lot with mounts, especially on stealth oriented characters).

The second issue is that you've got bonuses that are hard to account for, specifically the UMD bonus.  Can you write it out?  I did.

JaronK