Author Topic: Factotum Challenge.  (Read 16338 times)

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Kaelik

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Factotum Challenge.
« on: October 29, 2008, 08:56:04 PM »
I intend to run a "Tier 3" Playtest. Obviously, I disagree with JaronK about Dread Necro's and Beguilers, and since one of those results in Shadowcraft Mages, I'm going to use largely Uber's Tiers for this.

The party should be:

Shugenja/Ardent/Warblade/Factotum. By many accounts all of these should be about equal, and all but the Factotum have no access to the vast majority of "TO" material, so it should be fine.

I would like to continue this test at levels 5/10/15, and probably not more then that. At each level I will run the group through a WotC adventure module of that level, or at least part of one if the actual adventure spans several levels. I will also run them through a situation of my own design that might feature in a campaign of my own.

Criticism as regards anything is welcome, and will have no effect on you being chosen to play a class and/or me being a dick as DM.

The following positions require filling:

1) Factotum Player: JaronK?

2) Warblade Player: TheWordSlinger

3) Shugenja Player: emissary666

4) Ardent Player: Uber

5) Supervisor of DM: Tshern

For players, I would like the player of the class to believe that their class can contribute equally or close enough, to this party. So Uber can't play a Factotum, but JaronK can. Same rules for all classes. Point of Note: JaronK has super priority for Factotum if he chooses.

For the Supervisor DM, there is no question of my bias. I expect the Factotum to perform poorly. I would like someone to make sure that I am playing fair, so to speak. Plus, I enjoy running my DM material through someone. Additionally, I will be away from my books quite often, so if I need to check something, I might ask you to break out your copy of ToB or Dungeonscape.

Certainly a discussion of House Rules and "interpretations" is important. The following are my preliminary ones. If you believe something needs addressing or changing, let me know.

1) Polymorph and the Polymorph subschool are allowed.

2) Anyone claiming they can gain the spellcasting of another class for any reason, especially if that reason is polymorph will be immediately beaten to death over the internet.

3) If I as a DM feel at any time that your minions are a more appreciable threat then you yourself are, they will all turn against you as soon as there are no other enemies around. If they kill you oh well. Just keep that in mind before you pull out Diplomacy/Animate Dead/Binding.

4) You will have WBL and the treasure recovered from the encounters, you will not wish for anything or I will break you in half.

5) Assuming I am correct in saying that only the Factotum has access to the Planar Binding line of these characters, it is fully allowed, since Factotums lack the ability to bind demons of CR greater then themselves.

6) Leadership is banned.

7) Font of Inspiration for ungodly nova is a big no no. I don't care how many times you take it in the level 5 test, but you better not have more then 20 base IP at level 10 or 30 at 15.

8) These are tests of the classes in question, a certain amount of dipping is generally normal, but will be discouraged as much as possible. Factotum should be all Factotum, the Ardent should be either all Ardent, or Psionic casting PrCs (yes, slayer is fine). Warblade could dip around quite effectively, but I'm going to ask for full Warblade levels only. Shugenja can take any full caster PrC it qualifies for. Unless it qualifies for Shadowcraft Mage in which case it can't.

9) As per a (currently) 5-0 vote with one abstaining, Item Familiars are banned as well.

32 PB for stats, WBL. Anything else you need to know, just tell me.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 01:17:58 AM by Kaelik »

Ubernoob

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2008, 09:06:19 PM »
If omen doesn't have dibs on the ardent I'll be tossing a claw ardent.  Otherwise I've got dibs on the shugenja.
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TheWordSlinger

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2008, 10:26:19 PM »
Oh oh oh! Warblade! Unless someone else has priority...
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JaronK

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2008, 12:15:30 AM »
Obviously, we're going to run into the whole "hostile DMs can always beat the players" issue here.  I mean, it looks like you're trying to prove Factotums are weak, but any DM can prove that any class is weak.

Also, if you think Dread Necromancers are strong, but you're playing by the rule that minions turn against you... how does that make any kind of sense to anyone?  I mean, isn't that one of the major Dread Necromancer abilities, that you can control a ton of undead?  And wouldn't a Dread Necromancer under that rule then be far weaker?

Anyway, I'm not sure if I want to enter this (though the fact that it's actual modules does help) but if it helps anyone, here's a 10th level Factotum (you didn't state if flaws are allowed here, but he's built without them).  If someone else wants to play him, that's fine.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=89036

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Kaelik

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2008, 12:27:48 AM »
1) Of course. That's one reason I am recruiting a DM supervisor.

2) I actually wouldn't mind not DMing to much, but in my experience it's a lot harder to find a DM for a challenge then it is players.

3) Dread Necromancers also have super sweet spells, a full progression, and relatively speaking, some other cool abilities at low levels, and PrCs at higher ones. Yes a Dread Necro could theoretically have an infinite shadow army. Yes without that infinite shadow army he is weaker. But having a couple pet undead that you can heal all day, and some DR. And some nice spells, yeah, that's pretty cool even if the DM doesn't let you Planar Bind a Glabrezu at level 12.

You can have minions, it's only if your minions are obviously superior to you that it becomes a problem. If you Rebuke a Lich Wizard with a higher level of spellcasting then you, then he's fundamentally better then you.

JaronK

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2008, 12:39:58 AM »
I wasn't even refering to endless Shadow armies.  I just mean that one of the big abilities of a Dread Necromancer is that an 8th level DN with a charisma of 20 (pretty reasonable for a charisma caster I think) can have 72 HD worth of Animate Dead undead, all with +4 Str, +4 Dex, and +2 Hitpoints/HD (probably more than that with Corpse Crafter and Desecrate, plus fast healing abilities from Black Sand and other such stuff).  That's clearly going to be stronger than the Dread Necromancer himself, just by weight of numbers, if you get enough of them.

Or did you mean each individual minion must not be stronger than the player himself?  Like, planar bound effretti bone creatures are bad, but a bunch of skeletal giants are fine?

Also, wouldn't it be more reasonable to throw a Rogue in here?  I mean, Uber thinks they're Tier 3, right?  So his system says they're 1 tier above the Factotum, and mine says they're one tier below.  Since those two classes are a LOT easier to compare than, say a Factotum to a Warblade, wouldn't that make for an easier and more useful comparison? 

And yes, I'd prefer a nuetral DM, but I'm aware of the difficulty in finding one.

JaronK

Kaelik

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2008, 03:45:08 AM »
1) Yes, I know there are ways besides infinite armies to make your minions stronger then you, I generally consider them all out of line too. But if we were to objectively evaluate that, I think that the minions on their own would have to lose the benefits applied by Corpsecrafter ect. But that gets into fuzzy territory where one questions if desecrate counts as coming from the character or not, and in general is just very confusing. That's why I'd just as soon not use a Dread Necro in comparison.

2) The problem being that Rogue and Factotum generally accomplish largely the same thing in the party, if you want to open it up to 5 memeber party and add the rogue I'm fine with that, it's just that I wanted a generally balanced party.

Honestly, there is just no substitute for a Cleric, Crusader can heal HP, but so can wands and any number of other things, but Clerics do better party buffing then any other class, and they cure other conditions when you need it. I thought Ardent + Shugena would be the best fit, since Shu is probably going to be Water anyway.

Tshern

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2008, 07:45:32 PM »
I can be the DM supervisor if you trust my integrity.
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emissary666

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2008, 09:47:35 PM »
I'll try my hand at shujenga.
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TheWordSlinger

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2008, 10:27:22 PM »
Just so I create correctly, the first test wll be at level 5, right?
Currently playing:
Forte Lulz, Chaotic EVIL Bard bent on world domination;
Canere Potentia, to sing of power.
Aralaxax, Warforged Osteomancer, Machines are my people, I wield bones as other wield swords.
Randall Gray, she's not sexually confused, honest!
Zion "I can make followers, but why bother when people line up for me?"
Currently DMing: Real Men Use Their Hands, World's Largest Dungeon
"If you can pretend to be a half-orc barbarian or a dwarf wizard then you can pretend to be an alpha male."-Ninjarabbit
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Kaelik

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2008, 10:44:44 PM »
Indeed, level 5.

Tshern, indeed, I was having difficulty thinking of anyone at BG who is neutralish and who's integrity I trust. Luckily I had forgotten about you.

Well it looks like we might have everyone, assuming JaronK is going to play the Facotutm.

So Tshern, Talk about what Module to run in PM maybe?

Hesitant to discuss it because if JaronK really wants a rogue, and really doesn't want me to run it, I'd be happy to run the rogue, and would you be willing to DM not just Supervise?

I wouldn't want to impose that on you if you aren't willing though.

Oh, JaronK, I hadn't checked your character sheet previously, but level 5 is the level of the first playtest, not level 10. Also, could you please have only the inherent bonuses added on to the right ability score set, and have all enhancements on the left side where it denotes the "Temp" score. And Base attack to +7/+2 instead of just 7.

Crafting: OF course you would. You really kill me inside. And if I asked you to take any kind of XP penalty at all, you complain about gravy train, even that doesn't apply when you take the feat 1 level ago and then spend all your wealth. But I'll leave those aside for now, since we are starting at level 5, where you can't craft.

And Item Familiar? Really? I know I forgot to ban that, but seriously. I don't want to have to calculate XP differently. Any chance you could just drop that? I mean, we all know that most everyone takes it otherwise.

Since of course, as the evil biased DM if you ever lost it, then it's clearly my fault.

You know what, I'm just going to call for a vote on Item Familiar, Everyone gets 1 vote except Tshern's vote is the tie breaker as supervisor DM. If everyone else is fine with it then everyone else will probably just take it anyway.

I of course vote against it.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 11:03:35 PM by Kaelik »

Tshern

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2008, 11:04:47 PM »
Ah, please send me a PM about it. If needed, I can also DM this, especially if we run an existing module. Creating a new campaign from scratch might cause some troubles though.
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emissary666

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2008, 11:28:00 PM »
I'm against it.
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Ubernoob

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2008, 11:28:19 PM »
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2252.0
First line, second sentence.

Are we sure Tshern is completely impartial?  It looks like he actually helped me make the tiers.
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Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2008, 11:54:50 PM »
Hey, just wanted to say --

omg people! give up already. Play the game for fun, stop trying to prove stuff that are not even important. I mean, who cares if factotum is tier 3 or 1 or whatever :p
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Kaelik

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2008, 12:11:38 AM »
Hey, just wanted to say --

omg people! give up already. Play the game for fun, stop trying to prove stuff that are not even important. I mean, who cares if factotum is tier 3 or 1 or whatever :p

Hi dickface. Go away.

TheWordSlinger

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2008, 12:19:31 AM »
I'm against Item Familiar...
Currently playing:
Forte Lulz, Chaotic EVIL Bard bent on world domination;
Canere Potentia, to sing of power.
Aralaxax, Warforged Osteomancer, Machines are my people, I wield bones as other wield swords.
Randall Gray, she's not sexually confused, honest!
Zion "I can make followers, but why bother when people line up for me?"
Currently DMing: Real Men Use Their Hands, World's Largest Dungeon
"If you can pretend to be a half-orc barbarian or a dwarf wizard then you can pretend to be an alpha male."-Ninjarabbit
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"It's funny how the Earth never opens up and swallows you when you want it to." Xander Harris, Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Tshern

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2008, 12:42:44 AM »
Hey, just wanted to say --

omg people! give up already. Play the game for fun, stop trying to prove stuff that are not even important. I mean, who cares if factotum is tier 3 or 1 or whatever :p

Hi dickface. Go away.
That was uncalled for, he didn't come in insulting or anything.
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emissary666

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2008, 12:49:14 AM »
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2252.0
First line, second sentence.

Are we sure Tshern is completely impartial?  It looks like he actually helped me make the tiers.

Good point. Was Tshern involved in the placement of the factotum?
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Tshern

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Re: Factotum Challenge.
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2008, 12:52:01 AM »
Can't actually even recall what I said. I have only seen a single Factotum in gameplay, so I really don't have the expertise to judge it's position and I am fairly sure I mentioned that to ubernoob as well.
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