Author Topic: Satanism in D&D.  (Read 14151 times)

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Josh

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2008, 12:32:01 AM »
actually, most forms of christianity send a percentage of income/donations off to a higher office of some sort.
Yes, like 40%.  Thats what Catholics send (at least in 1993-4 they did).  And most of that money funds charities. 

I can't speak for many other religions but the non catholic Christen groups I knew of sent very little away.  Remember these are all tax free non-profits.  Collected money has to be spent on something, and with only a few exceptions the money is spent feeding the hungry or actual expenses, as opposed to buying yachts.   
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Prak, the Mad

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2008, 02:40:47 AM »
I've discussed the satanic paladin with someone before. In the end he agreed that he was wrong about it.

About the nine statements:

#4: Not innocents and those who are too weak to defend themselves. Lavey promoted the might makes right theory. People who cannot take care of themselves, or do not strive to become so able do not deserve your pity or your care.
#5: This one leads to an ever expanding circle of hate. Its not as simple as self-defense. It says that you should strike back against those who have wronged you. In other words: No forgiveness.
#7: But we should strive to be better then the animals in the wild. The herd does not care for the old and the sick. The weak in the pack are discarded and driven out. What makes humans human is that we can feel for others and show empathy. We should not discard this.
#8: Sins such as murder. A paladin should not feel gratification from murder.
#9: This would imply that its a bad idea to vanquish evil once and for all.

Rules of the earth
#1: So you are not to help people who are fooled into malady by others? If an AMway guy goes to visit your grandmother you should sit back until she asks for your help? All that evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
#4: Annoys you. Not wrongs you, or assaults you or anything serious. Just being annoying is enough reason for you to treat someone with cruelty and hate.

I could go on. There are indeed some rules that can exist alongside the code of a paladin, as I envision paladins. But someone who follows the text of the satanic bible as Lavey wrote it down is not a paladin.
They are a self-serving individual who cares little or not about the plights and worries of others.
A satanist is never moved by altruism but always does he act because he can gain from it.
It may have been me... gaming den? I think I cross posted over there.... Obviously it takes some very specific interpretations of LaVey's writting to swing it, but all religion is interpretive, it just is. Also, LaVey's writting has to be interpreted in very specific ways, otherwise we(satanists) would probably have destryed the world and ourselves by now. LaVey wrote in a very flareful, dramatic, poetic way, for effect, also, you have to look at strength in more than just obvious physical strength. Satanists are, as written by LaVey, supposed to protect innocents, ie, children and animals, because they represent undefiled nature and natural magic. All a paladin has to do is expand that in a certain way.

tusk

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2008, 08:14:55 AM »

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[matter of fact]Humans need to be led, organized religion saw this need as a chance and jump on it. This sell worked so well we have an athiest defending "mainstream religion".[/matter of fact]
Do you mean: do I know that you need training to become a priest or minister? If so yes.

What I mean by that is organized religious groups are just another kind of group that feast upon human need of being led like parasites.

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Where did the money go? See those paintings in Vantican? That's coming out of your pocket and you dont got to say a word.
First off you don't have to give anything.  Second, only catholics give money to the papacy.  Third, 60% of a parishes money is used locally. 40% goes abroad, mostly to fund charities. 

What about Televangilists? We had one running for president, whatshisname? Mike Huckabee it is.

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From personal experence, none of the support group and institution that I went to are funded by church.
Most are.  AA for example is. 

Well, I am fortunate enough to stay away from institution like that, so, point taken.

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Well, I don't know...... Maybe there is ONE person who think otherwise than the designers themselves, hmm?
OK.  But then that would be not-DnD by definition. 

One thing I think we can agree to disageree is: Does a homebrew ruleset still can be identified as D&D? Only the creator(s) and the player(s) can tell.

Radijs

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2008, 09:55:48 AM »
Yea I think it was you Prak. But over at the wizards forums.
What part of Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn don't you understand?

Josh

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2008, 10:28:50 AM »

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What I mean by that is organized religious groups are just another kind of group that feast upon human need of being led like parasites.
fulfilling needs is good.  Not having needs met is bad.

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What about Televangilists? We had one running for president, whatshisname? Mike Huckabee it is.
What percentage of religious authorities do you think are televangelists? 

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One thing I think we can agree to disageree is: Does a homebrew ruleset still can be identified as D&D? Only the creator(s) and the player(s) can tell.
Not really.  If you are playing a homebrew rules set you are clearly not playing DnD.
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Radijs

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2008, 12:24:53 PM »
I am beginning to be feel a little frustrated by the nature of your arguments Tusk.

You are making some very bold and broad claims that have very little backing. You take the Roman Catholic church as a point to stress that not all moneys have gone to the people who need it. I would like to present a counter-argument that these treasures that can be found in the vatican are no longer funded by donation sent in.

Taking a protestant view from my own nation, churches there are being closed and sold because they no longer have enough money to support them. But still they make the effort to support good causes, bringing food, health care, education and other good things to the people who need it.

You compare priests, ministers and Rabbi's to hustlers. That is simply put slander. I know dozen't of ministers and I know for a fact they all work their preverbial asses off. Working longer hours then for which they get paid to help people, personally with grief, depression, despair, the big questions of life etc.

Religion does not solely exist to manipulate people into doing what you want or to part them from their hard-earned money. It exists to provide people with support, a caring hand on their shoulder and an ear to listen to their problems and gods know what else.
Hell my own father almost literally gave his life in service of the people in his church. You can't convince me that he did that just so he could fill his pockets or manipulate them to his own ends.
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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2008, 02:45:47 PM »
Hey, it's like the Stormwind Fallacy; more or less religion =/= more or less morals
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2008, 05:01:02 PM »
Hey, it's like the Stormwind Fallacy; more or less religion =/= more or less morals

Exactly. Though it could easily be argued that one who didn't need some higher power telling him what 'the right thing' was, or scaring him with Hell, whatever is more on the 'right' track.

Words in quotes because I don't really believe in that, just using them to make a Devil's Advocate point.
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Josh

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2008, 04:38:51 PM »
Quote
You compare priests, ministers and Rabbi's to hustlers. That is simply put slander. I know dozen't of ministers and I know for a fact they all work their preverbial asses off. Working longer hours then for which they get paid to help people, personally with grief, depression, despair, the big questions of life etc.
this is overwhelmingly the case.  I know priests who helped people in east germany before the wall came down.  For their trouble they were imprisoned and occasionally tortured.

Quote
Hey, it's like the Stormwind Fallacy; more or less religion =/= more or less morals
morals always are religious in nature.  The term you are looking for is ethics.


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tusk

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2008, 05:33:15 AM »
  After reading your comment, the fact that I over-gernalize people become ever-obvious to me. I must remind myself this is not a place to spew upon people that I know nothing about. Now my fallacy is apparent, therefore, I must apologize to everyone that is unfortunate enough to endure such immature behavior. A big part of this apology goes to Josh, for he is the target of this madness.

  I just feel tainted reading my previous comments. I am sorry.

Don't-Know-What-I'm-Doing Tusk

emissary666

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2008, 05:56:39 AM »
We are an non-LeVayian satanist and find that this thread has been treated much better than at wizards.

Satanism has many forms. LeyVayian is the most publicized and easier to find. This makes it perfect to adapt to D&D. But, Satanism is not purely anti-christian. Satanism does not even require belief in Satan, but at minimum the concept, which is open to interpretation. Satanism, as a category, is very broad. In the medieval ages, paganism was considered Satanism. In the 80's, D&D was considered Satanism. To insert Satanism to D&D, you must first develop the type of Satanism you wish to insert.
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Prime32

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2008, 03:16:50 PM »
Satanism does not even require belief in Satan[...]In the medieval ages, paganism was considered Satanism.
Paganism was considered Satanism erroneously, either because the Church was frightened of what they didn't understand, or because they wanted to eliminate their rivals.

If a form of Satanism has nothing to do with Satan, then why is it called Satanism? I might as well call a car a duck.
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[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
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Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

emissary666

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2008, 06:50:08 PM »
Satanism always requires the concept of Satan. When we said it does not require belief in Satan, we meant as a being. You still have to worship Satan, just not as a real thing underneath the earth's crust.
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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2008, 07:51:28 PM »
Satanism always requires the concept of Satan. When we said it does not require belief in Satan, we meant as a being. You still have to worship Satan, just not as a real thing underneath the earth's crust.

So it as absolutly no pagan roots. Please don't associate Paganism (or even Witchcraft) with Satanism. It's two thing that have very few things in common.

Prak, the Mad

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2008, 12:33:42 AM »
Satanism always requires the concept of Satan. When we said it does not require belief in Satan, we meant as a being. You still have to worship Satan, just not as a real thing underneath the earth's crust.
sort of. Laveyan satanism requires worship of no one, it holds the belief that each individual satanist is their own god, and satan is used as a symbol. The worship of satan is known as Diabolotry and can be worked into D&D more easily, as it's essentially just worshipping one fiend or another.

Essentially, you've got two basic forms of Satanism:
Theistic Satanism: This is the worship of satan as an entity, including both "Reverse Christians" and Luciferians, along with others.
Symbolic Satanism: This is the use of Satan as an ideal and a symbol, as well as a type of buzz word to get your point across and scare the normals. This is the category which LaVeyan Satanism falls under.

I myself am a satanic animist, heavily informed and influenced by LaVeyan Satanism.

emissary666

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2008, 08:47:59 PM »
We said paganism was CONSIDERED satanism. Not that it is Satanism.

We are a symbolic satanist, but we pretend to be a theistic one just to scare people.  It is easy to transfer either one to D&D. Theistic Satanism would be worship of demons, devils, and other evil outsiders.
Symbolic Satanism would be worship of a concept or use of a symbol relating to evil outsiders. Of course, it would have to have evil as relitive to include symbolic.
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NecroticBanana

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2008, 07:28:55 PM »

They are a self-serving individual who cares little or not about the plights and worries of others.
A satanist is never moved by altruism but always does he act because he can gain from it.

I have to admit...i agree with this. I am, in fact a Satanist, and a firm beliver in Leveyan Satanism. And have been known to be a very basic, and self centered person. (even called primitive) But i take pride in it, my anger and distain of others often helps me push through the very darkest times in my life. But i'm not gonna go into a long winded theology debate here. But i feel that Satanism, as explained by Levey will not work as per the standard D&D rule set. The game is based on the simple fact that demons do, in fact, exist and there are shmucks that worship them.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2008, 07:31:14 PM by NecroticBanana »
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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2008, 02:38:34 PM »
I have no interest in a non game related religious discussion. I am not interested in gaming with a born again Christian preaching at me while I'm trying to kill goblins. I also would not want to hear a pagan, a levayan or an atheist preaching and or proselytizing at me while I'm rolling to see how much damage my fireball is doing.  However I have a big problem with the original post. Why do you have to make the Baatzu and the Tanar'ri allies? I hate that part. I love that the Demons and Devils don't like each other and that there is a clear distinction between Chaotic Evil and Lawful Evil. I think this conflict is one of my favorite pieces of fluff in DnD.  Giving a set of values, laws and beliefs to worshipers of Asmodeus is great. Especially if it is a set of values that leads one to put the self above others. That allows one to easily be tempted and seduced into EVIL. This is of course the whole point of devils in DnD.

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2008, 12:17:13 PM »
I have no interest in a non game related religious discussion. I am not interested in gaming with a born again Christian preaching at me while I'm trying to kill goblins. I also would not want to hear a pagan, a levayan or an atheist preaching and or proselytizing at me while I'm rolling to see how much damage my fireball is doing.  However I have a big problem with the original post. Why do you have to make the Baatzu and the Tanar'ri allies? I hate that part. I love that the Demons and Devils don't like each other and that there is a clear distinction between Chaotic Evil and Lawful Evil. I think this conflict is one of my favorite pieces of fluff in DnD.  Giving a set of values, laws and beliefs to worshipers of Asmodeus is great. Especially if it is a set of values that leads one to put the self above others. That allows one to easily be tempted and seduced into EVIL. This is of course the whole point of devils in DnD.
Once he brought in the "Assmodeus organized the demons" it was kinda "A good dick sucking for my favorite devil-king!"
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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2009, 03:52:52 PM »
A satanist is never moved by altruism but always does he act because he can gain from it.
They are a self-serving individual who cares little or not about the plights and worries of others.

So...  They're lawyers, then?  :p
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