Author Topic: Satanism in D&D.  (Read 14236 times)

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Prak, the Mad

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Satanism in D&D.
« on: May 20, 2008, 05:30:48 AM »
It's a common thought that LaVeyan Satanism can't work in D&D because D&D's fiends are inherently abrahamic in their being. I realized the other day how stupid this thought is when one considers that LaVeyan Satanism was created as an answer to Christianity. It's just a matter of outlook, with some minorchanges of motivation, and as we really don't know Asmodeus' entire motivation, who's to say it can't be this? This is something I worked up on gleemax, and am crossposting other places to see what people think(as well as to keep the idea going in the event of a flamefest on gleemax).

Quote from: MadPrak_Mark2;15901770
Ok, this is an attempt at molding a particular real life religion into D&D by taking the actual philosophy and putting them with game entities. Some may recognize what I'm doing, if so, that's great, any comments on the real religion are welcome in my inbox, but here they will get this thread locked. I know this from past experience, so please refrain from commenting on the real religion here, I am seriously willing to discuss it, just not here.

[SIZE="3"]The Core Belief of the Church of Asmodeus.[/SIZE]
"The core belief is that Asmodeus is not evil, or at least that it is not a bad thing to be evil and that when one dies their philosophy or practices either have no bearing on their afterlife or merely determine who rewards them with what. It is the idea that Asmodeus had a plan when he rebelled, and did not just do it on a whim or some such but rather to provide balance to the multiverse through opposition. When he rebelled, or fell, or became corrupt, however you wish to view it, he did so because he knew that the multiverse would soon come to a point at which it would no longer survive on just the dieties of Law versus the demons of Chaos, and that it would, very soon, become divided further into those who were distasteful and those that were awesome, evil and good, that which is hateful to us is evil, and that which is glorious to us is good, for such terms are ephemeral and ultimately meaningless, my pupil. Asmodeus existed to destroy the demons, but understood that the nameless hordes birthed from the abyss would never ebb and were better balanced and checked. He also knew they were the balance of the beautiful gods of law, and that without vile beings of law, and the beautiful beings of chaos that would eventually come about should Order be upset, there is not true balance. So he and his followers began to take on forms similar to the demons they were meant to slay. This was the beginning of his fall and his plan. He bargained and courted with the gods of Law, and won autonomy and a realm from which to plan and act. He quickly brought together a group of devils, for that is what they came to be called after their casting out, and deemed they would help him rule both Hell as crowned princes, and the mortals that were developing by representing darker motives the new gods of good would, largely, try to stamp out. Motives such as ambition, greed, pride, lust, all the various "sins" which are merely nature."

[SIZE="3"]Representing Mortal Nature, the Incomplete Whole[/SIZE]
In time Asmodeus realized there were certain aspects of mortal nature that were not a devil's forte, and largely absent from them. So, he entreatied several demons and presented his case, surprisingly, the demons listened and understood and reasoned as well, and so, Asmodeus told them to pick nine demons, however they must, to be the ruling powers of the abyss and be folded into the fiendish nobility, once they had acted out their natures through various depraved and vile election techniques, nine were chosen, as well as many others that were essentially runner-ups, and these demons were crowned as Demon Princes. They represented those parts of mortal nature that were more chaotic and had ill-reflection in the devils, such the basic animal nature and drives that mortals hold within them, and, despite the token representation among devils, lust, which was much more natural to the demons than any Hell-spawned devil. With these new nobles fiendishness, the representation wasn't going to get any better, and so Asmodeus rested in this goal and began to set forth a plan.

[SIZE="3"]The Nine Diabolic Statements[/SIZE]
"Asmodeus was not much one for direct involvement, but he has planted, deeply, a certain entreaty into mortal minds, it follows as such:
1-Asmodeus, through his demon allies, represents indulgence, instead of abstinence!
2-Asmodeus represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
3-Asmodeus represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
4-Asmodeus represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!
5-Asmodeus represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!
6-Amodeus represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for those that would play the victim!
7-Asmodeus, through the demons, represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse, than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!
8-Asmodeus represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
9-Asmodeus has been the best friend the gods of good and law have ever had, as He has kept them flush with petitioners and souls all these years!"

[SIZE="3"]The Place and Ways of an Asmodeun[/SIZE]
"Many people call the asmodeuns "evil" and this is true, to a degree, as I said before, "that which is abhorrent to us, we call evil." This is true for all people, and so of course we will be called evil, but it matters not, as the actions of evil men and their drives are the catalysts for change. Would a kingdom change much if everyone was happy? Possibly, but likely not, it takes discontent before people seek change, and so from time to time, a tyrannical dictator, or a horrendous monster, or some other such nonsense is needed to change the status quo and advance the state of things. Tell me, student, would we have created the sword if we were not beset by ravenous creatures intent upon devouring us, or greedy neighbours, desirous of our land? No, would we have developed magic if we did not want for power over the things that burden us? No, and we would not be able to live as comfortably as we do. This, disciple, is our place in the world, as the catlyst for change, and to advance the state of things."



that's as much as I've got right now... should have written it down when I was originally thinking about it.

So what do the people here think about it?

Banor

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2008, 06:51:05 AM »
Very, very interesting. I like it.

It seem pretty obvious to me that people like Asmodeus would not get follower if their claim was only : Evil for the sake of it. Especially since Asmodeus has a long history of treason and total dictatorship something a true Evil subordinate would not like; advencement is at best limited and possibility of total power, absent. Why would you even think to risk thing for something that is simply Evil for the sake of it ?

This is a great attempt at making the cultist of Asmodeus (or any cultist of an Archfiend) much more deep and complex and bring good material for an Evil campaign.

Prak, the Mad

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2008, 07:25:12 AM »
It's actually an attempt to make my religion feasible in D&D(there are some major differences, still, but...) but yes it would work very well for an evil game, and also makes it so you can have a satanic paladin in a morally grey campaign.

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2008, 08:30:43 PM »
Anton LaVey is a douche. His response to Christianity was lame. The real answer is atheism.

Banor

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2008, 09:27:53 PM »
Religion should not be an answer to each other. If you don't like Christians don't be one that it. You should not be atheist because you don't like christian but because you are believe that Atheism is the way.

Prak, the Mad

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2008, 10:16:16 PM »
Anton LaVey is a douche. His response to Christianity was lame. The real answer is atheism.
Anton was an atheist.

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2008, 11:13:58 PM »
Anton LaVey is a douche. His response to Christianity was lame. The real answer is atheism.

I prefer polytheistic with my own pantheon to atheism.


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Josh

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2008, 08:18:41 AM »
In Forgotten Realms I played an atheist. 

The gods were such incredible douchebags I said Fuck em.

And my characters goal was to turn Elminster over to Ssazas Tam. 
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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2008, 01:43:13 AM »
Anton LaVey is a douche. His response to Christianity was lame. The real answer is atheism.
I disagree about him being a douche. He had the guts to shoot back at Christianity and he has persistently defended his opinions and the general idea of calling his religion satanism makes me giggle. He pissed right to the eyes of hardcore Christians and other religious zealots and that is exactly what we ought to be doing: getting rid of stupid religions revolving around external forces.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2008, 03:41:21 AM »
Anton LaVey is a douche. His response to Christianity was lame. The real answer is atheism.
I disagree about him being a douche. He had the guts to shoot back at Christianity and he has persistently defended his opinions and the general idea of calling his religion satanism makes me giggle. He pissed right to the eyes of hardcore Christians and other religious zealots and that is exactly what we ought to be doing: getting rid of stupid religions revolving around external forces.

+1. Delusions are a sign of failing mental health.
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Banor

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2008, 06:43:36 AM »
Quote
+1. Delusions are a sign of failing mental health.

I have to disagree here, Spirituality is a very personal matter, it is not delusions, it is not a sign of failing mental health. It has been part of humanity since the beginning and is one of the things, it's something that humans as a whole need to satisfy something the material world can't. Maybe you don't need to have spiritual beliefs. More power to you. Some people, on the other hand, do. They aren't showing signs of failing mental health.

The problem with spirituality and religions is when they start to be a public matter. When, in the name of religions, you try to impose something on other people. This is what I don't like about a lot of "mainstream" religions ; they tend to impose their view on Human spirituality and how it should be, denying other people the right to think for themselves. The problem is not only limited to religions, we have seen how terrible forced atheism can be in the various pseudo-communist, Stalin-inspired states.

Discuss about spirituality with people, ask questions, even criticize if you want, be do not impose. Let people be. Now if religions are private, it doesn't mean that we, as a society, accept everything in the name of religions/spirituality. Law and ethics are a public matter and should be respected by all, without any exception.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2008, 04:21:39 PM »
Quote
+1. Delusions are a sign of failing mental health.

I have to disagree here, Spirituality is a very personal matter, it is not delusions, it is not a sign of failing mental health. It has been part of humanity since the beginning and is one of the things, it's something that humans as a whole need to satisfy something the material world can't. Maybe you don't need to have spiritual beliefs. More power to you. Some people, on the other hand, do. They aren't showing signs of failing mental health.

The problem with spirituality and religions is when they start to be a public matter. When, in the name of religions, you try to impose something on other people. This is what I don't like about a lot of "mainstream" religions ; they tend to impose their view on Human spirituality and how it should be, denying other people the right to think for themselves. The problem is not only limited to religions, we have seen how terrible forced atheism can be in the various pseudo-communist, Stalin-inspired states.

Discuss about spirituality with people, ask questions, even criticize if you want, be do not impose. Let people be. Now if religions are private, it doesn't mean that we, as a society, accept everything in the name of religions/spirituality. Law and ethics are a public matter and should be respected by all, without any exception.

Religion has been a part of humanity for a long time. So has death, disease, and many other things. Being around for a while does not automatically make something good. Or bad, for that matter. In fact, religion has caused a lot of death and disease by being the cause of many wars, as well as backwards development (making people shit in holes in the ground, when they actually had a fairly sanitary means of disposing of their waste prior to being 'enlightened') in some cases.

It is a sign of failing mental health because not only can God X and his alleged claims not be proven, but if you begin to analyze the religion even lightly it quickly falls apart. This is why just about all of them advocate 'blind faith', some openly make references to sheep and shepherds, and so forth.

As all solid claims can hold up under scrutiny, and religion cannot it is not a solid claim. A = B, B = C, A = C.

Quote
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
de·lu·sion    Audio Help   /d??lu??n/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-loo-zhuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   an act or instance of deluding.
2.   the state of being deluded.
3.   a false belief or opinion: delusions of grandeur.
4.   Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.
[Origin: 1375–1425; late ME < L dél?si?n- (s. of dél?si?), equiv. to dél?s(us) (ptp. of dél?dere; see delude) + -i?n- -ion]

—Related forms
de·lu·sion·al, de·lu·sion·ar·y, adjective

—Synonyms 1. deception. See illusion.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

Emphasis mine.

Further proving this claim is easily tested. Find a religious person and not only question their faith, but systematically disprove it. This is incredibly easy to accomplish, I think everyone on this forum has more than enough intelligence and debating skills to pull it off. When faced with blatant facts slapping them in the fact, the typical response is one of the following:

1: Get mad, vehemently deny it, insult you, but fail to address the issue in any way.
2: Spout arrogant condemnatory nonsense such as loudly declaring you will burn in Hell for your 'blasphemy'. I'm not even touching how 'thinking for one's self' can be remotely defined as such, nor how such could ever be considered remotely desirable to anyone except the guy controlling the religion and thus the worshippers.
3: Start ignoring you, lalala we can't hear you praise (insert god name) and so forth.

Now replace (insert god name) with faeries, dragons, or any other fictional character who lacks said attached baggage to make such clearly evident including one or more deities from any other faith and you'll find the same people agree with you completely. There is a disconnect between 'that fictional character is fictional' and 'my favored fictional character is fictional'.
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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Feylin

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2008, 07:22:37 AM »
I read the Satanic Bible and have to say I agree with alot of what is in there. (not the ritual section cause really that was fluff but the actual philosophy part.) The chapter on sexuality is beautifully worded.  :clap

I have a funny story about that actually. Once during my horrid stay in high school our chemistry teacher was out and the school didn't give us a substitute until the second period of the class (double chem because of a lab.) So a room full of destructive teens wanting to rip the room apart became an audience for a stunt of mine. I loudly stood at the front of class and held the book so they couldn't read the title and read the sex chapter to them out loud for the hour. the girls were so fascinated by it that by the time they realized it was Satanism. The part on masturbation lead to a beautiful class discussion on bodies and gender equality and stigma about women masturbating.  :study

No where in that did I try to convert anyone. I read the book to be better informed in an easy about another book called Rosemary's Baby. It was a very fun experience watching some of the most closed minded people I ever met open up. I felt proud and disappointed by the end. Proud I did what I did and Disappointed I judged them so harshly before.

I have many friends of many different religions and since I have been a few myself. I feel fit to do a little comparative study. I was born into a Jewish family, my mother converted to Methodist and then I discovered NeoPaganism. I now stand at a point close to Wicca but will not identify as that because I am nursing a personal belief that Wicca was a perverse recruiting and testing device for The Golden Dawn which Gerald Garner was a known member and he was close to Alaster Crowley who was an inspiration to LeVey. So it isn't unreasonable that to two religions would have so much common ground. On the issues of sex they are identical.

Did you know LeVey got a coroner to give him a woman's thigh which he cooked and fed to guests at a dinner party. This I am sure happened once. (a documentary on cannibals i saw on HBO once had people saying humans taste like pork. "Long Pork" so it wouldnt be hard to cook would it?)

Now Asmodeus, would not I think share the Satanist view on sex. The do want you want as long as it is consensual. The book flat out says rape is wrong and that is harmful to have sex with a child or animal. So much so that it flies in the face of what the religion stands for. That state of impulsive bliss uncluttered by social mores. (Which wouldn't that be a paradox? But then again what about human nature isn't paradoxical?) It was stated that this would not be straight from that body of work but since sex is such a religious issue can you give a bit of imput on how that beautifully developed cult would handle sex and consent?



« Last Edit: May 30, 2008, 07:28:22 AM by Feylin »

Josh

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2008, 09:44:12 AM »
Satinisim is just as valid as any other wacky cult. 

As an atheist it may seem strange that I would come to the defense of mainstream religion, but I do.  Priests, minsters and Rabbis are actually trained.  Not just about the functioning of their religion but also about people and communities.  You see so many flashy con artist preachers that it is easy to forget that most men and women of the cloth are actually good people.  They actually perform useful charity and they help people deal with issues like grief and loss.

All that being said, this thread is about satinisim in DnD.  Satinisim, or more properly LeVayinisim (satinisim happening to already be the name for something) does not work in DnD.  It is a subjective, re-interpretive religion.  DnD has an objective cosmology.  Bad is bad and Good is good.  Not to mention the fact that it is polytheistic in nature as well.

What is the point of the religion in the game?  Does it create interesting conflicts?  Does it drive a story on?  What use is LeVayisim?
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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2008, 06:55:43 AM »
Satinisim is just as valid as any other wacky cult.

  I don't thing the purpose of this post is about the validity of LaVeism.

Quote
As an atheist

  Word.

Quote
Priests, minsters and Rabbis are actually trained.

So does every hustler on the street. Can you elaborate the difference?

Quote
Not just about the functioning of their religion but also about people and communities.

[matter of fact]Humans need to be led, organized religion saw this need as a chance and jump on it. This sell worked so well we have an athiest defending "mainstream religion".[/matter of fact]

Quote
atheist (plural atheists)

   1. A person who does not believe that deities exist; one who lacks belief in gods.


 
Quote
flashy con artist preachers

Oh, the mental image......

Quote
that it is easy to forget that most men and women of the cloth are actually good people.

It does not take very long to figure out they are trying to push something on you. Smells too fishy for me.

 
Quote
They actually perform useful charity


   Where did the money go? See those paintings in Vantican? That's coming out of your pocket and you dont got to say a word.

 
Quote
and they help people deal with issues like grief and loss.

  From personal experence, none of the support group and institution that I went to are funded by church.

Quote
All that being said, this thread is about satinisim in DnD.


Oh, I thought I was on Youtube or something. My mistake.


Quote
Satinisim, or more properly LeVayinisim (satinisim happening to already be the name for something) does not work in DnD.

1. Proper wordings and puntuations NEVER hurt.

2. How do you know? Because some lady in the 80's said D&D is related to satanism?


 
Quote
It is a subjective, re-interpretive religion.
 

Point taken.

Quote
DnD has an objective cosmology.  Bad is bad and Good is good.  Not to mention the fact that it is polytheistic in nature as well.

Well, I don't know...... Maybe there is ONE person who think otherwise than the designers themselves, hmm?

Quote
What is the point of the religion in the game?  Does it create interesting conflicts?  Does it drive a story on?  What use is LeVayisim?

This is ALL that matters in a D&D game. Or should I say "setting" or "background"?  :facepalm:
[/quote]

  Josh, this post is by no mean an attack to you. Please do not think otherwise. The reason for the multiple quotes is that I am pretty interested to have a discussion in this particular topic.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 07:10:31 AM by tusk »

ShaggyShaggs

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2008, 01:00:12 PM »
There are those of us that do appreciate fluff but don't consider it the be-all, end-all of D&D.  To such players, fluff that goes directly against the objective rules of how things work may well need to be changed or scrapped, rather than accomodated as "ALL that matters in a D&D game".  LaVeyan paladin just doesn't work.  That doesn't mean a LaVeyan character who self-identifies as a paladin and is functionally similar (but perhaps more effective) can't be built.  (Of course, this is from a player who didn't see a problem with a half-ogre barbarian "wizard" whose spellbook was a bunch of crayon doodles and whose "magic missile" was Brutal Throw with a 20 lb pinecone.  YMMV.)

I think it's generally a bad idea for people to throw their vested personal beliefs into the ring in a D&D game.  It's just too likely to create a bad scene, whether it's the rules or the fall of the dice or even the PC and NPC reactions taking a massive dump on what the player thinks is right, or being accomodated too much and setting a precedent where eventually any ruling can be challenged because one or more players just plain don't like it.  Seems to me it's just a better idea all around to play something that isn't so important to the player, less risk of folks getting butthurt and having a trainwreck of a game for it.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 01:02:22 PM by ShaggyShaggs »
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Prak, the Mad

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2008, 05:57:38 AM »
actually, a LaVeyan paladin is entirely possible, you just have to divest the philosophy(an ye harm none, do as thou wilt) from the symbols(Satan/Asmodeus). There is nothing in the core paladin CoC that says they cannot indulge in lust, pride, wrath, gluttony, greed, sloth, avarice, or vanity. Now of course it does get into a "proper time and place" thing, but that's the difference between indulgence and compulsion. There is nothing saying that the paladin cannot accompany the rogue to the brothel after a tough adventure to relax and unwind while an attractive entity polishes his knob. Now, if he witnesses an injustice, he is required to do something about it, but that something could very well be notifying the city guard and going about his business since he's on R&R. If he finds out the brothel is actually slavery, then he should probably do something about it, and should certainly stop patronizing it. There is nothing saying the paladin cannot primp and groom and be very proud of himself, even to the point of considering intentional destruction of his meticulos image as a grave personal insult, but he shouldn't, for example, ignore a burning orphanage just because he's wearing his new surcoat.

It also goes into more than just a paladin being "sinful", there is nothing in the paladin CoC or the Nine Satanic Statements(or Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth) that contradict the other:
Quote from: Paladin Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
religion and alignment are completely separate, or at least, they should be... granted, if you're a cleric, you have to be one of three(ish) alignments, but that's realy just "don't be too different in view from your god"
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Quote from: Nine Satanic Statements
1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!
already covered
2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
basically, live your life, don't be delusional over the afterlife. granted, this statement should be dropped in a world were you can seriously plane shift and go say hi to/kick god in the face.
3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
don't lie to yourself
4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!
okay, this is where it gets questionable, but for a paladin, it'd likely translate to "kindness to innocents, punishment to those who would prey upon them"
5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!
again, questionable, but for a paladin it'd be "if they've attacked, defend yourself" no vow of peace/non-violence for these paladins.
6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!
psychic vampire was LaVey's title for those people that guilt you into caring about them when you can't even stand them. This would translate to "your life is your responsibility, if you need help, ask, don't guilt"
7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!
"Don't pretend you're any better than the animals of the wild"
8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
"Don't shy away from what some would call sin, as they all will likely make you feel better in one way or another"
9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!
"Evil and adversaries keep the hero/saviour in business"
Quote from: Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth
1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
this is basically "mind your own business" and would probably be cautiously ignored by paladins who practically are required by their occupation to investigate screams of pain, injustice, etc. but usually those are screams for help anyway, sooo....
2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
again, "mind your own business" and "take responsibility for your own life", also the "don't sob about your troubles over you drink to some drun who probably couldn't care less" rule
3. When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
"Respect Legitimate Authority" though generally ignorable as an "invading force" when in the BBEG's lair... there's also the tactic of luring the BBEG out of his tower for the battle.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
I'd think a paladin would interpret this as throwing people out of his keep if they did not respect him while within it.
5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
basically "don't rape people" but also "don't be a nuisance"
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
"don't steal", obviously, buit also "don't take another's matters into your hands"(unless the person cannot handle it...)
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
"don't diss the forces that have helped you in the past"
8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
"don't whine about situations you put yourself into", ie, if you chose to accept the quest of finding the mayor's kidnapped daughter in the sewer lairs of the troglodytes, you don't get to complain.
9. Do not harm little children.
self explanitory, but apparently needed... probably made an official tenant during the time of the "Satanic Panic" as a way of distancing the church from the supposed "ritual satanic abuse" shit. Also helpful in the "Kill the baby or the Demon gets loose" scenario of which asshole dms are so fond.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
"don't murder animals/kill them for sport" or "don'tbe a sociopathic killer"
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.
again, "mind your own business" and "defend yourself"

incase anyone's interested, there're also the Nine Satanic Sins, things which satanists(and coincidentally, paladins) should avoid:
Quote from: The Nine Satanic Sins
1. Stupidity—The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It’s too bad that stupidity isn’t painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid.
So obvious, that it's painful, but really needs to be said for both satanists and players of paladins
2. Pretentiousness—Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn’t applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. On equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone’s made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not.
"don't get too big for your britches" again, so obvious, it's painful.
3. Solipsism—Can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won’t. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of “Do unto others as they do unto you.” It’s work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point.
this is really just "be mindful of the potential validity of other points of view", or, "you are not the end all and be all or even neccessarily correct."
4. Self-deceit—It’s in the “Nine Satanic Statements” but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when it’s fun, and with awareness. But then, it’s not self-deceit!
again, "don't lie to yourself"
5. Herd Conformity—That’s obvious from a Satanic stance. It’s all right to conform to a person’s wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many.
basically, "think for yourself", which, again, is something that both satanists and paladins need to be doing, especially since we are long past the days of paladins having to swear fealty to anything other than a kind of generic force of "good"
6. Lack of Perspective—Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, every day. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. Do not be swayed by herd constraints—know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world.
"look at the big picture", again, Something Paladins Should Be Doing Anyway(hereafter known as "SPSBDA"). Also, "don't be Lawful Stupid"
7. Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies—Be aware that this is one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something new and different, when in reality it’s something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the creator and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society.
SPSBDA
8. Counterproductive Pride—That first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The rule of Satanism is: if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you’ve painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, I’m sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow, then do it.
self explanitory, and SPSBDA
9. Lack of Aesthetics—This is the physical application of the Balance Factor. Aesthetics is important in Lesser Magic and should be cultivated. It is obvious that no one can collect any money off classical standards of beauty and form most of the time so they are discouraged in a consumer society, but an eye for beauty, for balance, is an essential Satanic tool and must be applied for greatest magical effectiveness. It’s not what’s supposed to be pleasing—it’s what is. Aesthetics is a personal thing, reflective of one’s own nature, but there are universally pleasing and harmonious configurations that should not be denied.
This is primarily important for rituals, but it can also be applied as "don't just be different or contrary for it's own sake, in other words, "don't be Chaotic Stupid"

it's probably painfully obvious that I've put way too much thought into this... and it actually evolves into a better and more logical arguement each time I go through and make it... but the point is that it's perfectly possible and acceptable for a paladin to be played from a quasi-satanic viewpoint(obviously working in the survival of the strongest and "the weak should serve the strong" stuff needs a very specific philosophy to work in a paladin, but even that can be looked at and interpreted in such a way as to work in a paladin, as well there always being the possibility of making a character who is LG, and a paladin and yet believes in some very LE things, and struggles with it, and it would probably make a very interesting character.)

Quote from: Josh
All that being said, this thread is about satinisim in DnD.  Satinisim, or more properly LeVayinisim (satinisim happening to already be the name for something) does not work in DnD.  It is a subjective, re-interpretive religion.  DnD has an objective cosmology.  Bad is bad and Good is good.  Not to mention the fact that it is polytheistic in nature as well.
Actually, most properly, it's "LaVeyan Satanism," because there's really no such thing as "LaVeyanism," except, possibly, the act of living your life like the man did... But... the real point I wanted to make was that Core D&D has an objective cosmology, while specific settings can have subjective cosmologies, or there's even the fact that it's never been made entirely clear, except in a very RAW way, What the Hell Asmodeus is up to or all about. However, let's examine this from the pov of fitting a character into a campaign rather than crafting an aspect of an campaign setting. If your DM uses BoED, or at least the arch-celestials within, the philosophy would probably be very fitting for the Arch-guardinals, or whatever the furry unique celestials were called. Yes, I know, guardinals are, like, CG, but... hell, it's a less major change to allow CG paladins then it is to say that Asmodeus was really trying to help humanity or throwing alignment out altogether, or whatever else you'd have to do to make Asmodean Paladins work. You could even say that there is a LG order of paladins that overlooks the chaotic nature of the guardinals, and serves the Furries.

What is the point of the religion in the game?  Does it create interesting conflicts?  Does it drive a story on?  What use is LeVayisim?[/quote]

Josh

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2008, 10:00:50 AM »

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[matter of fact]Humans need to be led, organized religion saw this need as a chance and jump on it. This sell worked so well we have an athiest defending "mainstream religion".[/matter of fact]
Do you mean: do I know that you need training to become a priest or minister? If so yes.

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Where did the money go? See those paintings in Vantican? That's coming out of your pocket and you dont got to say a word.
First off you don't have to give anything.  Second, only catholics give money to the papacy.  Third, 60% of a parishes money is used locally. 40% goes abroad, mostly to fund charities. 

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From personal experence, none of the support group and institution that I went to are funded by church.
Most are.  AA for example is. 

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Well, I don't know...... Maybe there is ONE person who think otherwise than the designers themselves, hmm?
OK.  But then that would be not-DnD by definition. 
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Prak, the Mad

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2008, 11:48:23 PM »
actually, most forms of christianity send a percentage of income/donations off to a higher office of some sort.

Radijs

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Re: Satanism in D&D.
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2008, 12:10:04 AM »
I've discussed the satanic paladin with someone before. In the end he agreed that he was wrong about it.

About the nine statements:

#4: Not innocents and those who are too weak to defend themselves. Lavey promoted the might makes right theory. People who cannot take care of themselves, or do not strive to become so able do not deserve your pity or your care.
#5: This one leads to an ever expanding circle of hate. Its not as simple as self-defense. It says that you should strike back against those who have wronged you. In other words: No forgiveness.
#7: But we should strive to be better then the animals in the wild. The herd does not care for the old and the sick. The weak in the pack are discarded and driven out. What makes humans human is that we can feel for others and show empathy. We should not discard this.
#8: Sins such as murder. A paladin should not feel gratification from murder.
#9: This would imply that its a bad idea to vanquish evil once and for all.

Rules of the earth
#1: So you are not to help people who are fooled into malady by others? If an AMway guy goes to visit your grandmother you should sit back until she asks for your help? All that evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
#4: Annoys you. Not wrongs you, or assaults you or anything serious. Just being annoying is enough reason for you to treat someone with cruelty and hate.

I could go on. There are indeed some rules that can exist alongside the code of a paladin, as I envision paladins. But someone who follows the text of the satanic bible as Lavey wrote it down is not a paladin.
They are a self-serving individual who cares little or not about the plights and worries of others.
A satanist is never moved by altruism but always does he act because he can gain from it.
What part of Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn don't you understand?