Author Topic: Attitude Towards 4e  (Read 41872 times)

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bhu

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Re: Attitude Towards 4e
« Reply #160 on: June 07, 2008, 04:54:51 AM »
Ive only seen the MM so far..and I have to change my vote from skeptical to Fuck It.  That may change as I go through the rest...but glancing briefly at the PHB..I will never get my players to play this.  Ever.  Even if I tied down their relatives and threatened to gouge out their eyes with wooden spoons.  I could offer them Anything as incentive and theyd still tell me to go fuck myself.

Of course now I dont have to spend all that money...

Wonder if it'd piss anyone off if i continuously converted the new monsters to 3.5?  :angel

DetectiveJabsco

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Re: Attitude Towards 4e
« Reply #161 on: June 07, 2008, 05:28:07 AM »
Does any one else smell mega wow from 4e?

Cleric-Priest
Fighter-Warrior
Paladin-Paladin
Ranger-Hunter
Rogue-Rogue
Warlord-Shaman
Warlock-Warlock
Wizard-Mage?

or am i just making all of this up

Josh

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Re: Attitude Towards 4e
« Reply #162 on: June 07, 2008, 05:58:13 AM »
Does any one else smell mega wow from 4e?

Cleric-Priest
Fighter-Warrior
Paladin-Paladin
Ranger-Hunter
Rogue-Rogue
Warlord-Shaman
Warlock-Warlock
Wizard-Mage?

or am i just making all of this up

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PhoenixInferno

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Re: Attitude Towards 4e
« Reply #163 on: June 07, 2008, 06:02:21 AM »
All my NPCs suddenly have colored exclamation points over their heads!  0 n0ez!

heffroncm

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Re: Attitude Towards 4e
« Reply #164 on: June 07, 2008, 09:43:47 AM »
That is not creativity.  It is fiat.  The GM decides what they want to happen, look at the chart to see what numbers they should use, and then uses it.  Here is what it boils down to: GM picks easy, medium or hard.  PCs win 50% of the time on easy, 25% on medium or 10% of the time on hard.   

The whole of D&D is fiat dressed up in mechanics.  This chart gives the DM a tool to do that with situations that are not covered by the rules.  Ability scores, skills bonuses, and the such actually matter: they significantly alter the "50%, 25%, 10%" numbers you put up.  You can run an entire session with nothing but that chart, have it exactly mirror the mechanics of any other session, and the only thing you would need to make up yourself would be hit points for any combats.

And what I was refering by the "really creative without set rules" was player actions.  The best part about the chart, imo, is it gives one tool to adjucate all of the wild, crazy things players come up with.  From dropping chandeliers on enemies, to tossing a line to someone who's falling, to the given example of swinging across the room to boot an enemy into the fire, the chart contains the base mechanics to deal with situations that used to be adjucated by completely made up rulings.

AlienFromBeyond

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Re: Attitude Towards 4e
« Reply #165 on: June 07, 2008, 03:48:36 PM »
Does any one else smell mega wow from 4e?

Cleric-Priest
Fighter-Warrior
Paladin-Paladin
Ranger-Hunter
Rogue-Rogue
Warlord-Shaman
Warlock-Warlock
Wizard-Mage?

or am i just making all of this up
Because none of these classes existed before WoW, and it's not like they totally serve different roles. Clerics are smashy in addition to buffy/healy, Rangers can actually melee worth a damn and don't have a pet fuzzball, Rogues do more than stab you in the face, Warlords are way better than Shamans, Warlocks are nothing like Warlocks, and Wizards are the original Mage.

0/10 try harder next time.

Ieniemienie

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Re: Attitude Towards 4e
« Reply #166 on: June 07, 2008, 05:20:35 PM »
Played the DnD game day today, and my first impression is that the monster are damn strong!

I DMed the first two encounters and killed 3 out of 5 people int he first encounter (the other two ran away) and had a total party kill in the second... never actually made it tot he third....

Played all of the encounters as a player and was told I was one of the 10% lucky few who didn't die in a TPK in the third encounter... Guess the little campaign was not properly designed then...

Also the characters were just wrong at some points and were created subpar; giving the fighter improved initiative instead of the rogue, etc.

All in all; It is way too WoW-y for my taste and the monster are damn strong...
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ksbsnowowl

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Re: Attitude Towards 4e
« Reply #167 on: June 07, 2008, 11:24:13 PM »
I also played game day today.  I agree that the monsters were damn strong.

Granted, some of it was due to people looking up new rules, but combat rounds took longer than they do in my current 8th level 3.5 game.  And even if they do streamline over time (as folks become used to the rules), there are simply more rounds to be gotten through, because the monsters have so many more HP's.

I really dislike that they got rid of touch AC's.

I prefer Tome of Battle Crusader healing than the healing surges.  Everyone in our party had used their healing surges, 3 of the 5 of us were down to under 5 HP's, and the cleric had used up all his per encounter healing surge "spells."  And none of the monsters were even bloodied yet, aside from the main BBEG, who was unconcious, but then got a 20 on his save...

The attacking of different "AC's" for your "saves" causes more problems than it solves.  Every time the DM would attack, and then we'd have to ask what AC he was trying to hit, he'd have to stop, look it up...
And with the save-attacking AoE spells, the DM has to sit there rolling 3 or 4 times, attacking against each PC.  Asking for "Fort saves!" is faster, when each person attacked is responsible for one roll.  Though, I suppose the inverse happens in 3rd ed, when the PC's target multiple foes in a fireball.  But now in 4th, it just means the player is rolling all the "saves," in addition to rolling and adding up damage.  It's no faster on one side (and actually slower, since you're lumping all the attack saves and damage on the one player's shoulders), and slower now on the other side.  Not a benefit, if you ask me, as the goal was to speed things up.

My opinion, there might be a few small ideas I'll implement in 3rd ed games, but I'm not that impressed.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2008, 11:27:21 PM by ksbsnowowl »
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Shigunaru

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Re: Attitude Towards 4e
« Reply #168 on: June 07, 2008, 11:50:03 PM »
Quote
And with the save-attacking AoE spells, the DM has to sit there rolling 3 or 4 times, attacking against each PC.

The DM should roll only once for AoE attacks.
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DetectiveJabsco

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Re: Attitude Towards 4e
« Reply #169 on: June 07, 2008, 11:50:51 PM »
I disagree with your though proses, i have spent over 40 hours a week for the last year raiding. And, as far as i can see.

Dnd/WoW
Clerics(heal/Buff)/(raiding) 2 priest Healing/Shadow
Fighter(hit stuff/Tank)/(raiding) 1 or 2 Warriors Tank/DPS
Paladin (defend/Heal)/(raiding) 0 or 1 Paladins Heal through tanking
Ranger (hit stuff(long/short range))/(raiding) 0 or 1 hunter(Fuzzy always dismissed, no pulling) DPS
Rogue (hit stuff/Be stealthy)/(raiding) 1 or 2 Rogues DPS
Warlock (Hit lots of stuff)/(raiding) 2 or 3 DOT/DPS
Warlord (buffs)/ 0 Shaman (Buffs)
Wizard (Boom/Laughable control)/ Mage DPS/AOE/Minor control

looks to me to be a pretty good match.
Only Difference is WoW has more options for builds...kinda.

So While Raiding lets say 5 man.
2 Warlock(DOT), 1 Priest(Holy), 1 Warrior (main tank), 1 Druid (OT/DPS/Heal)

No other than the druid this looks Like a DnD party to me, and With skills being about the same. If you really want to Replace the Druid With a pally and now you have a party identical to a DnD party.

I would never in my right mind allow a Pally over a Druid in my Raid but for the sake of this argument ill allow it.

So, now tell me how was my post an Epic Fail? Or do you just not know WoW and the second i Said DnD was like it you flipped out?

ksbsnowowl

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Re: Attitude Towards 4e
« Reply #170 on: June 08, 2008, 12:31:22 AM »

The DM should roll only once for AoE attacks.
Ok.  That's not what happened today, but sure.

Still wasn't well impressed with it.
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Meg

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Re: Attitude Towards 4e
« Reply #171 on: June 08, 2008, 12:53:01 AM »
We should compile a list of things that are WoW-ish.

"Marking" enemies?  The fact that items are level based? 

I see powers like talent trees-- for example, I just made a warlock and chose some select powers from a couple of different areas (starting each tree esentially) but then chose the Infernal Pact tree so the others went gray for me and the other infernals lit up. 
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heffroncm

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Re: Attitude Towards 4e
« Reply #172 on: June 08, 2008, 01:15:36 AM »
I really kind of dislike all the comparisons of 4e to WoW.  It seems largely arbitrary, and that 4e does not have any more in common with WoW than 3e.  It's only the runaway success of the MMO that draws the attention.

Maybe it is because every time I see the comparison, it seems someone is trying to say 4e is a worse game for having anything in common with WoW.

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Re: Attitude Towards 4e
« Reply #173 on: June 08, 2008, 01:16:21 AM »
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DetectiveJabsco

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Re: Attitude Towards 4e
« Reply #174 on: June 08, 2008, 01:19:51 AM »
I love WoW, by comparing DnD to WoW I am Just opening my self up for discussion on how they are very similar.

Also, to add to the list.

Monsters in Whole.

Solo, Elite, Comander, Rare, Minion.

Most of these titles can be compared to WoW titles for monsters.

heffroncm

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Re: Attitude Towards 4e
« Reply #175 on: June 08, 2008, 01:23:52 AM »
Okay, I'll play along.

Clerics can heal!
Dragons have breath weapons!
Rogues do it from behind!
Dagger specialists crit better!
Fighters wear Plate!
Paladins can Lay on Hands!
Wizards have the best AoEs!
Tactical movement is important!
Party coordination is key!
Warlocks tap forbidden powers!
You can play monstrous characters!


It should not amaze that a game with the same general genre and similar setting is going to have a lot in common.  Everything in the list above is true of WoW, 4e, 3e, and any number of other Fantasy RPG's, be they tabletop, console, computer, or MMO.  They're all drawing on the same pool of material, you're going to have similarities.

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Re: Attitude Towards 4e
« Reply #176 on: June 08, 2008, 01:26:39 AM »
The similarities with 4e though are NOT just the generic RPG concepts.  I really truly believe they looked at MMORPGs to make this game.
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Re: Attitude Towards 4e
« Reply #177 on: June 08, 2008, 01:37:00 AM »
I agree, I think the reason for pulling from WoW is two-Fold.

1.Expand you main Demographic.
2.People Love WoW, If Guild Wars was the new WoW they would have pulled from that.

heffroncm

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Re: Attitude Towards 4e
« Reply #178 on: June 08, 2008, 01:37:30 AM »
The similarities with 4e though are NOT just the generic RPG concepts.  I really truly believe they looked at MMORPGs to make this game.

I believe the mirror works both ways.  

The one big thing everyone keeps holding up, Powers compared to Talent Trees, is a refinemeny of Feat Chains from 3e and skill/spell selection in Diablo II and it's clones.  

Items were level based in 3.0 core, the designers did not reveal the design mechanics behind it until the Magic Item Compendium but the concept was always there.  CR was based on the idea that characters of a certain level had certain neccessary gear items.  Minimum level to use certain items is a concept that goes back a lot further than WoW, and one that doesn't exist in 4e.

Fighters being able to "tank" enemies was a concept of 3e.  They simply weren't given any of the tools they needed to do so.  Again, a concept that goes back a lot further than MMOs, though always represented as the meatshield physically interposing himself.

My base objection is not comparing these things to mechanics in other games.  That happens.  There has not been a truly new and innovative idea in game design for quite some time, it's all refinement of what came before.  My main gripe is all the comparisons to WoW, specifically.  It holds a big market share, but there are other games that these concepts have equal presence in.

Anyway, don't mean to sound 100% bitter.  I'm just soured on the whole idea.

To add a serious one to the pile, high level Rituals being available as significant treasure, vs the drop-only spells of high end WoW.

heffroncm

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Re: Attitude Towards 4e
« Reply #179 on: June 08, 2008, 01:38:12 AM »
I agree, I think the reason for pulling from WoW is two-Fold.

1.Expand you main Demographic.
2.People Love WoW, If Guild Wars was the new WoW they would have pulled from that.

Except they DID pull from Guild Wars.  Heck, the 4e Powers and Feats system better matches the Guild Wars set up than the WoW set up.