Rogue's corallary to the Tome of shadows. Drokah Discussion.

[Midnight_v]

There was this post over on WOTC where I encountered this.

I went to discuss it with the rogue guy but he didn't seem interest in a non dick-sucking opinon or discussion really. I figured I'd garner some more intellegent opinions about this race. So I brought it here to see what the BG crowd thinks.

Here's our talk.

+2 Strength, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma

Why would they get a bonus to Intelligence? elves aren't any smarter than humans on average, and orcs are dumber. The goal is to create the most likely product of interbreeding, not to create an optimized race.

If I totalled together high elf and orc, it'd be +4 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha. I decided to drop two points of Strength to eliminate the Constitution penalty and the bonus to Dexterity to eliminate the Intelligence (I chose Intelligence over the other two to differentiate from the half-orc).

A drokah still makes a good barbarian, fighter, rogue, or wizard.


Quote:
It's the first thing changed when people do half orc fixes 

And the first thing I object to them doing. It doesn't make much sense. I can see human blood eliminating some of the strength bonuses and one of the mental stat penalties but not two or more.

Fixes for half-orcs should give them more abilities, like I how gave them Imposing Presence, weapon familiarity with the orc double axe and spiked chain, and bonuses to Survival skills, as well as an "any" favored class. But I don't generally touch ability scores because those shouldn't ever be touched. They're too fundamental to the race at its core.

It'd be like making a fighter fix by taking away its proficiency with armor and half its feats in favor of giving it a partial spell list and automatic metamagic feats, or something. Sounds like an interesting class. Isn't a fighter anymore, though.
 

at which point I really just wanted to call him an ignorant cunt but for the sake of the peace, coupled with the whole P.I. Thing about wasting time preaching CO to people...
... continued with

Why would they get a bonus to Intelligence? elves aren't any smarter than humans on average, and orcs are dumber. 

Well its typically called hybrid vigor, or "Outbreeding" but the scientific term is "heterosis" here's a link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis

Quote:
The goal is to create the most likely product of interbreeding, not to create an optimized race. 

I've posted above the link to the science that shows that amongst breedable races there resulting offspring is stronger, the most likely race resulting from that union would be "BETTER" than the parent races.
Out
This thought process I'm using doesn't have anything to do with optimizing really  If I'd logged on to work on optimizing something I'd have not wasted my time discussing your homebrew stuff.

Spoiler:
(If we were talking optimizing the conversation would probbably become a lot less friendly quickly based on the way I'm interpreting your post. Forgive me if I'm mistaking you for having some kind of amibient dislike of optimizers. Kinda comes off that way this time. *shrugg*)

Which for the record is pretty entertaining stuff. 
Frankly it's more about balance, in this case.

Balance or "truth"; the truth being mix an elf and an orc and your likely to get something that has the benifits of both and the drawbacks of neither. Like the humanoid equivalent of a liger or something.

Which brings us to balance it is unbalanced to have a net negative attribute race really.
Frankly, it would fit flavorfully either way by removing the - to charisma
because charisma in D&D is not a measure of beauty but a measure of force of personality.

And yes they can be the 4 classes you mentioned, and

Quote:
Physically Imposing (Ex): Like orcs and half-orcs, drokah are quite imposing based on size alone. A drokah can use his Strength modifier (if any) instead of his Charisma modifier as a bonus to Intimidate checks.
(Note: This is an ability that I, personally, have houseruled for orcs and half-orcs, in order to make them a little more attractive. That's what I mean when I said "like orcs and half-orcs"). 

Is an interesting ability indeed.
I would suggest giving them "powerful build" instead if you intend to keep them with at the net negative score which helps the intimidate by a flat 4.
Still though...
I gather your not interested in feedback that challenges your notion of balance, and I don't feel like arguing right now so fine.
Overall Good job.
I just hate to see great flavor attatched to a mechanically hindered class.
Thanks for the ideas though.
I'll implement that flavor as soon as I can.
M_v
   

Hybrid vigor is basically the opposite of inbreeding not sure if I but that there. So I was just pretty much like I like that flavor, the mechanics keep the things that kept people from playing half-orcs where I've played.
So to the relavant folks...
Thoughts ideas, comments...?

[RobbyPants]

I'm not sure if you're looking for comments on the race or the conversation.

As far as the conversation goes, way too many people still buy into the whole "+2 Str is stronger than -2 X" bullshit.  That's precisely why I dropped the -2 Cha for half-orcs in my game. 

I can see the argument for balancing a +4 Str with three -2's, but that's not because Str is so important, but because a +4 can be so strong at low levels.  Still, it doesn't take too long for the +4 to stop mattering, in the face of class features and magical gear.

I agree with P.I. here in that you probably won't change his mind.


As far as the race goes: yeah, the flavor is cool.  I'd say either add +2 Dex or drop -2 Cha.

[SiggyDevil]

Mixed breeding doesn't guarantee heterosis. Sometimes you end up with the opposite, a hybrid with all the bad traits and few if any redeemable qualities (like me!)

Or, the crossbreed is sterile.
Chromosomes are a fucked up mechanism.

You could steer evolution through selective breeding (eugenics) to weed out undesired variable traits, but then you'd wind up with a speciated emo race due to their "tragic history".

[Midnight_v]

Mixed breeding doesn't guarantee heterosis. Sometimes you end up with the opposite, a hybrid with all the bad traits and few if any redeemable qualities (like me!)

Or, the crossbreed is sterile.
Chromosomes are a fucked up mechanism.

You could steer evolution through selective breeding (eugenics) to weed out undesired variable traits, but then you'd wind up with a speciated emo race due to their "tragic history".

win

[veekie]

Mixed breeding doesn't guarantee heterosis. Sometimes you end up with the opposite, a hybrid with all the bad traits and few if any redeemable qualities (like me!)

Or, the crossbreed is sterile.
Chromosomes are a fucked up mechanism.

You could steer evolution through selective breeding (eugenics) to weed out undesired variable traits, but then you'd wind up with a speciated emo race due to their "tragic history".

Fu for that sir.

[SiggyDevil]

Well, thanks. 

Seriously though, you're only making them more powerful.... power through PITY.

[Psychic Robot]

Poorly-done race, in mine opinion.  Shouldn't an elf + orc be more reviled?  Also, it's not evil enough.  It needs to be sick and perverse if you're going to go with the "abomination" angle.  Don't go light on it.

[SiggyDevil]

On the contrary I'd like it to be very bland and without ingrained background.

Stupid statements like "all half-elves are sociable and flowery" are worthless. It's blatant racism, fantasy or not.
Subracial prejudice is inherent to setting, not genetics.

If I want a dapper half-orc or a Dirty Harry half-elf, damnit I'm going to have it.

[JaronK]

I'm honestly going to agree that this race shouldn't get +Int.  They should get stats based on their progenetors.  Hybrid Vitality usually means the negatives of one side are canceled out and overwritten by the other side, and that the positive sides from both combine together... that still shouldn't get greater intelligence when combining average intelligence with sub par intelligence.

So, I'd say either make them more Orc like (+4 Str, -2 Wis, -2 Chr) or maybe make them +2 Str -2 Wis.  I do agree that there's no need for unbalanced stats.

JaronK

[bkdubs123]

Anyone else but me think that none of the racial traits make it at all worth it to play, even if it did have balanced ability score modifiers? It could just be me, but I think it's a pretty weak race all around.

[Midnight_v]

Anyone else but me think that none of the racial traits make it at all worth it to play, even if it did have balanced ability score modifiers? It could just be me, but I think it's a pretty weak race all around.

+1
Yeah me... I like everything but the mechanics he used... Very annoying. 

[SiggyDevil]

Anyone else but me think that none of the racial traits make it at all worth it to play, even if it did have balanced ability score modifiers? It could just be me, but I think it's a pretty weak race all around.

I'd rather play LA+1 Tiefling than Drokah, and that's saying something (since LA sucks ass.. always do LA+0 and just fucking give the race the rest of their shit at level 2)

[JaronK]

That's why I suggested +4 Str -2 Wis -2 Cha.  That's going to be VERY useful for a charger character, when you consider that you need to be an Ork to take Headlong Rush.

JaronK