Capitalism V Communism

[Banor]

How about the millions of people who struggle to get food in Socialist third world countries?

Third world has been made by capitalist countries. Don't blame Socialism for failing to resurrect something you have burnt to ashes

[DetectiveJabsco]

I would like to Make one general statement in regards to all of the complaints to Capitlism.
With Anarcho-Capitalism, none of these problems would exist.
PM if explanation is needed, but first read up on Anarcho-Capitalism.

[Dragon Snack]

This is exactly the problem. Capitalism is perverting the values of normal people and makes them compete against each other in an unhealthy manner.

Why do you think that all capitalistic competition is "unhealthy"?  It's easier to get along with even your competitors, that's why there are professional organizations that allow competitors to share ideas.  Not everything of course, but it's certainly not as cut-throut as you seem to think...

In the States you either don't wait or don't get service.

Incorrect.  In the States, you cannot be denied emergency medical service.

In the long run, as more technologies and medicines are produced, costs drop, and eventually the evil, greedy capitalists are making health care more accessible.

When exactly will this happen? When the gap between the rich and the poor is even vaster than it is now?

It's happened already.  Compare the average lifespan of people today with people from the early 1900's.

edit: really stupid typo...

[PhaedrusXY]

Where medicine is a governmental function, such as in England, fewer people seek jobs as doctors and physicians too because it is a less lucrative practice. As such, fewer major breakthroughs are funded and made in such places.

Doctors don't make breakthroughs. Scientists do. Scientists typically get paid crap compared to medical Doctors, unless they make some major breakthrough, and then found a company based on it themselves.

In the long run, as more technologies and medicines are produced, costs drop, and eventually the evil, greedy capitalists are making health care more accessible.

Most science (and practically all basic science) in the United States is funded by governmental grants, and conducted at universities. Corporations are notoriously short sighted when it comes to research, and rightly so. When profit is your bottom line, you can't afford to "waste" 10 years on basic research that doesn't immediately yield an increase in your profits. So, the corporations do very little to advance scientific knowledge and technology, IMO. The basic research for whatever they eventually use was almost inevitably done under a governmentally funded program. The corporations just take the results, streamline them, and sell products based off them. Sometimes the people who did the original fundamental research benefit from this, but not always.

So yeah, I'd say your analysis is highly flawed, and ill-informed.

[Tshern]

Actually, since you posted this, you're not...

Actually I kept the lols to myself.

And while he was technically wrong, I'm sure you know what he meant.  The same could be said about your "To each according to their needs" line (that's Marx's quote, not your paraphrasing).

Actually, I wasn't too sure about that. I've meant so many people who have absolutely no idea what are they talking about in regards to topics like this. You know, speaking of baby-eating satanists and vampire Hitlers (reductio ad Hitlerum!). And I am familiar with the quote, it's a great one too.

We can agree that the US welfare system is a huge clusterfuck.  It's not like there aren't problems in other countires systems either - and they are much smaller systems (which should have lower overhead costs).

Sure, but the general budget is lower too. It's not like a single state was larger than Canada. But yes, let's agree with the clusterfuck.

And "less capitalist nature" makes me smile...

In case you are referring to the countries I mentioned, we should probably find a shared definition of capitalism as I am not smiling. Regardless of the capitalist tendencies of some of the examples (Switzerland, I am looking at you) they still fund most of their governmental functions with tax money similar to Scandinavian countries for example and are filledwith governmental services. From what I've learned with my economics studies, the amount of (or lack thereof) governmental services as opposed to private ones is a way to measure capitalism as well, even though it alone isn't a succesful tool in that regard.

Taxes create an excess burden (see also deadweight loss) to society, resulting in economic inefficiencies.  But then I'm an economist.

Private service-induced market failures are there too.

How about the millions of people who struggle to get food in Socialist third world countries?

Toss me an example of an actual socialist non-dictatorship. There really aren't that many, because certain capitalist country tends to arrange coups in places like Chile, Greece and Grenada when socialism happens.

Mace didn't drop the "distorted opinion" and "selfish and greedy man who utterly ignores the value of human life" lines...

I am very aware of this.

I'm about to sound like an ass, but I wasn't asking what your qualifications were, Tshern.

Reading back at my post, I understand your reaction. It came out more bluntly that it was supposed to. I apologize the tone.

I care about what people say

This is a good principle. Acts tell a lot more than empty words and people around this board seem to be smart and knowledgeable, so expecting for 'results' isn't a stretch.

I was merely stating that the information I provide might not be wholly appropriate, so it should be taken with a grain of salt. I'm not claiming to be the perfectly omniscient being on this matter.

Cool beans, I wasn't sending an inquisition after you anyway. It's good to have more people in a conversation to open their minds.

For Dragon Snack: Sorry, I must depart now, but in case you post more, I'll try to answer tomorrow (GMT+3) even though it's going to be a busy day. Thanks for the opinions and I bet you have more good stuff up your sleeve...

Also, I realized 4 posts came in while I posted, I'll answer to them later as well.

[Dragon Snack]

How about the millions of people who struggle to get food in Socialist third world countries?

Third world has been made by capitalist countries. Don't blame Socialism for failing to resurrect something you have burnt to ashes

It's Socialist Dictators that keep third world countires down (mainly because they've bastardized "to each according to their needs").

And how exactly do you "burn to ashes" (or resurrect) something that was never built up in the first place?

[Nox_Noctis]

Where medicine is a governmental function, such as in England, fewer people seek jobs as doctors and physicians too because it is a less lucrative practice. As such, fewer major breakthroughs are funded and made in such places.

Doctors don't make breakthroughs. Scientists do. Scientists typically get paid crap compared to medical Doctors, unless they make some major breakthrough, and then found a company based on it themselves.

In the long run, as more technologies and medicines are produced, costs drop, and eventually the evil, greedy capitalists are making health care more accessible.

Most science (and practically all basic science) in the United States is funded by governmental grants, and conducted at universities. Corporations are notoriously short sighted when it comes to research, and rightly so. When profit is your bottom line, you can't afford to "waste" 10 years on basic research that doesn't immediately yield an increase in your profits. So, the corporations do very little to advance scientific knowledge and technology, IMO. The basic research for whatever they eventually use was almost inevitably done under a governmentally funded program. The corporations just take the results, streamline them, and sell products based off them. Sometimes the people who did the original fundamental research benefit from this, but not always.

So yeah, I'd say your analysis is highly flawed, and ill-informed.

Seeing as I come from one of those universities (the University of California, Irvine - definitely a research institute), I will agree that most breakthroughs come from universities and other research facilities. That does not mean that doctors don't make observations, however, that contribute to such breakthroughs or aid in research and studies. It's shockingly difficult to research health care without health care to research.

[Dragon Snack]

...the amount of (or lack thereof) governmental services as opposed to private ones is a way to measure capitalism as well, even though it alone isn't a succesful tool in that regard.

And therein lies a big problem, since we have no pure systems to compare.

Private service-induced market failures are there too.

Obviously.  I take this as an abuse of the system, you seem to take it as the de facto SOP.

Toss me an example of an actual socialist non-dictatorship.

See above.  It's not just Capitalist countires who stick their nose in other peoples business though.

Sorry, I must depart now, but in case you post more, I'll try to answer tomorrow (GMT+3) even though it's going to be a busy day. Thanks for the opinions and I bet you have more good stuff up your sleeve...

Well, if we can get past the sticking point of 'Capitalist = evil greedy bastards' then we're probably not that far off.  As I posted before, I'm amenable to Communism - I just think we have a long way to go before it's truely viable...

[Banor]

It's Socialist Dictators that keep third world countires down (mainly because they've bastardized "to each according to their needs").

And how exactly do you "burn to ashes" (or resurrect) something that was never built up in the first place?

There is people in Africa, the lack of "modernity" doesn't give you the right to exploit and oppress a whole freaking continent. There was something before.

Also might I point the Cuban example. Even with an American embargo, they still managed to get a much higher life conditions if you compare them to other Latin America counties. Remove the embargo and who knows what would have happen ?

[Dragon Snack]

So, Capitalism must be damned because of the exploitation of Africa by (some) Europeans?  You're bringing in a whole other discussion into this, I won't defend the "Race/Scramble For Africa" - that's more a Colonialism thing than a Capitalist thing anyway.

And Cuba was propped up by the USSR, to rub it in the nose of the US.  Interesting that Cuba has implemented some Capitalist ideas once they needed to survive on their own (self employment, even going so far as to allow Cuban artists to sell their wares and keep the profits).  Oh, and Cubans get some US$600 million+ a year from expatriate Cubans (mostly living in the US)...

[Tshern]

Why do you think that all capitalistic competition is "unhealthy"?  It's easier to get along with even your competitors, that's why there are professional organizations that allow competitors to share ideas.  Not everything of course, but it's certainly not as cut-throut as you seem to think...

Never said anything about all capitalistic competition being unhealthy. Just that when normal workers need to stress about outshining their co-workers something is wrong. Many people live in this situation (short part time jobs and whatnot) and I don't think anyone should have to suffer from the worst symptoms of stress because of their day job, even if some amount of stress every now and then is good.

Incorrect.  In the States, you cannot be denied emergency medical service.

I know, I wasn't only talking about emergency situations. Citizens might break a finger, get a bad flu or something. Some can afford going to the doctor, but the unemployed single mother of three is highly unlikely to make it.

It's happened already.  Compare the average lifespan of people today with people from the early 1900's.

What the situation was a hundred years ago doesn't matter. Too many people are still living without decent healthcare and that is the problem and no matter how much things have changed during that century does matter. Sure, it is good that things are better, that is VERY good, but that doesn't comfort those who still have no access to the services.

No, I don't *need* to quote a band. I don't actually have to quote anyone, but even you used a quote before me. I fail to see the issue if the passage is suitable to the situation. Was the song quote you used from Nm 156?

It's Socialist Dictators that keep third world countires down (mainly because they've bastardized "to each according to their needs").

Also, I call BS on this one. Tell me a single socialist country on top of China (cannot really be called a socialist state, but I thought to bar it out anyway) that has the power to keep other countries down. Cuba sure as hell doesn't. The truth is there are no socialist states that have enough power to effect other countries in a meaningful way, much less to keep their development down. Most of the poor countries are creation of the former imperialist Europe and not the fault of capitalism per se, even if it is the current main economical stream and it fails to help them. As a matter of fact, more than any country directly, I am ready to blame the utterly flawed policies of the IMF and World Bank about the stagnant state of the third world countries.

And therein lies a big problem, since we have no pure systems to compare.

This is why theoretical discussions tend to be more fruitful. I fully agree with your statement though.

Obviously.  I take this as an abuse of the system, you seem to take it as the de facto SOP.

Sorry, English as a third language: What do you mean with SOP?

See above.  It's not just Capitalist countires who stick their nose in other peoples business though.

Because the current socialist states sure are agressive. I am not even willing to defend the assaults made by the Soviet Union, but too many people are actually defending the war of Vietnam, Cambodia, Chile, Grenada and whatnot. And yes, I think CIA made Chile's coup, so I am counting that in. Also, I am not blaming any of you for defending those wars, so nothing personal there.

Well, if we can get past the sticking point of 'Capitalist = evil greedy bastards' then we're probably not that far off.  As I posted before, I'm amenable to Communism - I just think we have a long way to go before it's truely viable...

Truly a long way to go. Perhaps too long a way to really implement in this world. The biggest problem I see in communism is that it's too hard to use in a single country, it needs to be a worldwide thing, which doesn't exactly make it easier to carry out. There would need to be a long period where countries slowly turn into communism and I am talking about decades. I am not a fan of a violent revolution to communism. Not only it probably would never work and I value human lives too much to condone such a revolution.

Also might I point the Cuban example. Even with an American embargo, they still managed to get a much higher life conditions if you compare them to other Latin America counties. Remove the embargo and who knows what would have happen ?

There was once an interesting article about this in a Finnish newspaper. The professor who wrote it suggested that Cuba might have actually turned out to be a lot more capitalistic than it is now had the embargo been removed in the 1970's or so. Nothing more that speculation, but I can see where he was getting at.

[ksbsnowowl]

Sorry, English as a third language: What do you mean with SOP?

Standard Operating Proceedure.  ie - the norm.

[Tshern]

Sorry, English as a third language: What do you mean with SOP?

Standard Operating Proceedure.  ie - the norm.

Cheers, this is why I like internet, you learn stuff.

[Irthos Levethix]

First off, just let me say that being a capitalist pig, I actually really like the idea of communism, but on the whole, I don't think it works.  Perhaps if it was global, like you said Tshern, then just maybe.  As it is, most likely not.  Now, that being said, I just want to address a couple things.

Never said anything about all capitalistic competition being unhealthy. Just that when normal workers need to stress about outshining their co-workers something is wrong. Many people live in this situation (short part time jobs and whatnot) and I don't think anyone should have to suffer from the worst symptoms of stress because of their day job, even if some amount of stress every now and then is good.

This is crap.  Its an excuse for lazy people to draw a welfare check, or bum off of others because "I just can't handle it, those guys at work make me... WORK!"  Sure, I'm taking it to an extreme, but I abhor lazy people, and it seems as if you are defending a somnambulant society. 

the unemployed single mother of three is highly unlikely to make it.

And this.  I know you said you value human life, but this?  If the unemployed, single mother of three spent less time on her back and more time getting a fucking job, then a) She wouldnt have three extra mouths to feed, and b) She might have the money to pay for their healthcare. 
That may seem harsh, but I have absolutely no respect, nor sympathy for people who don't want to think for themselves, and can't handle the consequences of life when they make poor decisions.  But maybe in a country with free healthcare, that single mother could go get a nice free abortion and not have to worry about it.  Until she gets knocked up again, that is.

[Tshern]

First off, just let me say that being a capitalist pig, I actually really like the idea of communism, but on the whole, I don't think it works.  Perhaps if it was global, like you said Tshern, then just maybe.  As it is, most likely not.  Now, that being said, I just want to address a couple things.

If you mean as world is now, then definitely not.

This is crap.  Its an excuse for lazy people to draw a welfare check, or bum off of others because "I just can't handle it, those guys at work make me... WORK!"  Sure, I'm taking it to an extreme, but I abhor lazy people, and it seems as if you are defending a somnambulant society.

Bullshit. Burn outs and other psychological problems such as severe depression are actually a lot more than excuses. The same way alcoholism is. Globalisation means that in some professions (doesn't naturally apply to all, some don't really change that much, catering might be a good example of this) constant re-education is needed and as such even unemployment isn't just a market-based thing nowadays, high levels of economics growth simply don't assure everyone has a job.

And this.  I know you said you value human life, but this?  If the unemployed, single mother of three spent less time on her back and more time getting a fucking job, then a) She wouldnt have three extra mouths to feed, and b) She might have the money to pay for their healthcare.

Sure, because having a job in the USA actually means you can manage. Nice job there, mate.

That may seem harsh, but I have absolutely no respect, nor sympathy for people who don't want to think for themselves, and can't handle the consequences of life when they make poor decisions.  But maybe in a country with free healthcare, that single mother could go get a nice free abortion and not have to worry about it.  Until she gets knocked up again, that is.

Okay, so everyone who isn't born to a rich family or with good wits actually DESERVES a crappy life? I don't really know how to argue against this.

[Rebel7284]

Incorrect.  In the States, you cannot be denied emergency medical service.

Tell that to all the people who die in the emergency room after waiting for hours for help.

Also it's funny how a lot of people use ideas about economic systems and political systems interchangeably.  While it's true that Marx had written some political ideas in the margin (ie: no "formal" government), the system is overwhelmingly an economic model.

My ideal system would probably be a Republic with communism as the economic system.

[Sunic_Flames]

Who here has read the Sword of Truth series? The Imperial Order is a perfect example of what happens when you try to impose 'greatest need'. For those that haven't, the end result is that those that are capable have little incentive to work simply so they can drag dead weight around, the dead weight has no incentive to do anything to become not dead weight as it can sit right where it is and get supported for free instead of having to be burdened down with other dead weight, and the end result is very rapid stagnation and complete lack of accomplishment.

[Irthos Levethix]

Tshern, I'm just going to go down your responses in numerical order, makes it easier.

1) Yes, that's what I meant.
2a) You're right, to an extent.  Alcoholism is a self-inflicted disease, much the same way a junkie contracts Hep C or HIV.  You'll find no sympathy for those types of people from me, either.  Personally, I feel its a waste of energy.
2b) While the job market is highly evolving, and constant re-education is a fact of life in a higher-demanding career, I think you diverge from your original point of

normal workers need to stress about outshining their co-workers

  "Normal workers", as you stated, are caterers and people with part-time employment.  If you think flipping burgers at McDonalds is going to give you post-traumatic stress syndrome, then maybe you should venture down to Needle Park and get yourself a nice dose of death.   (I should clarify, by "you", I mean our poor example of human fodder)
This brings me to
2c)  Psychoanalytical terms such as "borderline personality disorder", "post-traumatic stress syndrome" and "severe manic-depressant" really piss me off.  They take the problem out of the "afflicted" individual's hands and place it into circumstance/society.  Bullshit.  Read my take on accepting consequences.
3)  Unfortunately, merely having a job in the States doesn't mean you can manage.  Check out the state of our country a la Bush.
4)  An individual is entitled to nothing save what their actions reap for them.  An ignorant person may learn, a poor man can save his money.  I was born with neither money nor superior knowledge, but I can promise you that I will not die without them.

[Tshern]

2b. Not necessarily. There are a lot of jobs (for example nurses) who are bound to study a lot and very often they are bound to pay for it from the little money they make. That is a terrible error in the system, not in the worker.
2c. Bullshit back to you. While I am not too good with the English terms for mental illnesses, I can tell that most of the severe problems don't occur because of one's own decisions. While it can happen, usually that is not the reason.
3. It's not like the problem occured when Bush took over.
4. Untrue on some accounts. There are handicapped people (or is that their fault too?), kids getting born to such poor conditions that they can't afford to go to school and simply those whose dreams are denied by actions of others. Examples include denizens of slum areas and victims of accidents. The latter one is a small group, but the former one certainly isn't.

[Irthos Levethix]

I gotta say, this is some of the best conversation I've had in a long time.  Thank you, sir.  Now-

2b)  Poor example, please cite another.  My mom is a nurse, and while there is a severe salary cap in the area we live in, she hasn't studied since she went to school in the first place.  In fact, the best nurses I've seen (having been raised by one, I know a few) are the ones that learn through experience.  And yes, that is an incredibly stressful job, I wish she would write books.
2c)  I'm not saying that "all" disorders are circumstance penalties, I'm saying that the people that use it as a crutch should be summararily sent to the showers.
3)  "Occured" isn't the best word, "accrued" would be much better.
4)  So you do agree with me to an extent.  I hold much sympathy for people with genuine handicaps, like cerebral palsy, or autism.  Being in the states, I've never heard of "not being able to afford school".  And merely being raised in the slums is no excuse either, look where Elvis started.

My point, my good sir, is that looking at the world and pointing fingers at the state of the economy or government is just....irresponsible.  I hate to quote a book, but Sunic nailed it pretty good with the Sword of Truth series.  You sound like Nicci. (her ideals, not like a female.  Unless you are in fact, a girl.  Then you sound like a man.)  It took an 800 page novel to convince her that a person's actions are typically the root cause of their problems, and that's what should be addressed.  Your single mother of three?  I say put her ass on an assembly line somewhere, so she'll stop bitching.