Author Topic: Capitalism V Communism  (Read 16433 times)

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Nox_Noctis

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Capitalism V Communism
« on: May 19, 2008, 10:29:36 PM »
Let's get the big debate started.  :smirk
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Capitalism V Communism
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2008, 10:37:53 PM »
Capitalism by default.

A true communist state will never be able to occur due to the need for a ruling class and just basic human nature in general and quasi-Communist states like China, Cuba, and the USSR are little more than glorified dictatorships.

Smudgy

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Re: Capitalism V Communism
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2008, 10:54:02 PM »
Heehee, this just made me laugh.  :lol



Note: This could've been done with Republican's, Democrats, or any other party really, and I would've laughed all the same, please take no offense. :scared

DetectiveJabsco

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Re: Capitalism V Communism
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2008, 11:16:48 PM »
My biggest qualm with Communism is it has never been put into pure practice.
Following The Manifesto has not been accomplished.
Karl Marx would be rolling in his grave if he saw what has been done to his dream.

Also, Capitalism can be self sustaining, No government is need. In fact, all a government can
Accomplish is putting laws on free trade making it a big machine manipulated by the government it self.

Although i have much more to say i will wait from some ones response to continue.

Banor

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Re: Capitalism V Communism
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2008, 03:49:55 AM »
Working to get my post in real English and I'll post it asap

DavidWL

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Re: Capitalism V Communism
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2008, 05:34:27 AM »
My biggest qualm with Communism is it has never been put into pure practice.
Following The Manifesto has not been accomplished.
Karl Marx would be rolling in his grave if he saw what has been done to his dream.

Noam Chomsky has some nice stuff (more of an anarchist bent, but also some stuff about communism).  While not pure communism, I've heard some good things about how Yugoslavia functioned in 50s(?).

Quote
Also, Capitalism can be self sustaining, No government is need. In fact, all a government can
Accomplish is putting laws on free trade making it a big machine manipulated by the government it self.

Actually, I think most economists would disagree.  The classic failure of capitalism is the public good / cases when there is an externality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good

Quote
Although i have much more to say i will wait from some ones response to continue.

I actually don't think that much of communism, but do think (optimistically) that people might be able to self-organize into some sort of local-level government which would work well and be more about human relationship.

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David
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Capitalism V Communism
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2008, 09:42:10 AM »
Think about this, a product like D&D wouldn't exist in a Communist state

+1 Capitalism

Solo

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Re: Capitalism V Communism
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2008, 09:49:45 AM »
But we'd all have plenty of vodka.

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Zeke

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Re: Capitalism V Communism
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2008, 10:03:16 AM »
By its very definition Communism is a theoretical construct. Marx intended the manifesto to be a philosophy. He predicted that the proletariat would rise up and seize the means of production, I don't know if he ever thought it would happen the way the October Revolution did. In many real ways this has happened inside what most people think of as very capitalist structures. Co-ops, profit sharing  and publicly traded stocks allow the worker to have some kind of control over the overarching structure of his or her working life. It is a far cry from the very real wage slavery of the 19th century. Still, it's not a Marxist/Leninist utopia either. I don't know that Marx really predicted accurately the effect global democracy would have on the fate of the worker.
  Communism as a  governmental or economic system is irrevocably flawed.
Socialism, however, has the potential to be workable. This is only true if the free market forces of capitalism generate enough excess national income to power the welfare state. The essential debate is whether this is morally acceptable or not. Josh (and other wack-job libertarians) would argue that all taxation is essentially theft since it is money taken by force. There is a good deal of truth to that. I feel that social programs help to enhance the overall viability of a nation and its economy. I have in the past been a member of the American Communist Party, as well as  various socialist parties. At this point in my life I consider my self a proponent of worker's rights rather than a communist or even a socialist.

EjoThims

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Re: Capitalism V Communism
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2008, 10:17:33 AM »
If you're looking at 'pure concept.'

Communism.

Pure capitalism is nothing but free-for-all backstabbing while pure communism is the ultimate communal good.

If you're looking at practice... Controlled capitalism. It drives progress, but with checks doesn't have to led to a disproportionately rich upper class and a society largely composed of assholes.

Of course, even with controls it can. Just look at modern America for your proof. -.-'

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Re: Capitalism V Communism
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2008, 11:17:08 AM »
Capitalism by default.

A true communist state will never be able to occur due to the need for a ruling class and just basic human nature in general and quasi-Communist states like China, Cuba, and the USSR are little more than glorified dictatorships.

We don't have a pure capitalist state anywhere in the world either, really. I'd be in favor of a moderated capitalist system, but one in which every corporation is worker-owned. If you ever read any Kim Stanley Robinson, the stuff that emerged in the Blue Mars book seemed somewhat feasible and like a good idea, especially when you look at the struggle those coops faced as they faced down the enormous metanational corporations.

The idea that the workers own the fruit of their labor, and they hire managers in to run things (subject to review) is a great idea, in my opinion. Then again, I'm not an economist, so I've no clue how well that'd work in practice.

ksbsnowowl

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Re: Capitalism V Communism
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2008, 11:40:22 AM »
Capitalism.

I'm a bit of an unusual fixture in the gaming realm, as I am a conservative Christian with traditional values and beliefs, who thinks our government should only collect a modest tax in order to support a basic federal gov't structure, and maintain the military for purposes of national defense.  I don't agree with most social programs currently in use by our gov't, and feel these should be done via non-profit organizations (which people could freely give more to, as they are being taxed less), as NPO's generally make better use of a given sum of money than the gov't will.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Capitalism V Communism
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2008, 12:10:33 PM »
Capitalism by default.

A true communist state will never be able to occur due to the need for a ruling class and just basic human nature in general and quasi-Communist states like China, Cuba, and the USSR are little more than glorified dictatorships.

We don't have a pure capitalist state anywhere in the world either, really. I'd be in favor of a moderated capitalist system, but one in which every corporation is worker-owned. If you ever read any Kim Stanley Robinson, the stuff that emerged in the Blue Mars book seemed somewhat feasible and like a good idea, especially when you look at the struggle those coops faced as they faced down the enormous metanational corporations.

The idea that the workers own the fruit of their labor, and they hire managers in to run things (subject to review) is a great idea, in my opinion. Then again, I'm not an economist, so I've no clue how well that'd work in practice.

Dubai in the Middle East is pretty damn close. That place has no income taxes and special tax-free zones for businesses. Pretty all the services there are paid for by oil revenues. Dubai has expericenced extremely rapid growth within the last 15 years or so and many multinational businesses like Haliburton have moved their base of operations there. It'll be interesting to see how things turn out in 25 years or so there.

PhoenixInferno

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Re: Capitalism V Communism
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2008, 07:58:46 PM »
I'm a bit of an unusual fixture in the gaming realm, as I am a conservative Christian with traditional values and beliefs, who thinks our government should only collect a modest tax in order to support a basic federal gov't structure, and maintain the military for purposes of national defense.  I don't agree with most social programs currently in use by our gov't, and feel these should be done via non-profit organizations (which people could freely give more to, as they are being taxed less), as NPO's generally make better use of a given sum of money than the gov't will.
What does being a Christian have to do with any of that? :)

skydragonknight

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Re: Capitalism V Communism
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2008, 08:03:25 PM »
In Soviet Russia, the economy control you!
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ksbsnowowl

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Re: Capitalism V Communism
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2008, 08:18:21 PM »
What does being a Christian have to do with any of that? :)
It's just one facet of who I am.  No, I'm not saying that you can't be a good person if you aren't a Christian.

It went along more with the "unusual fixture" part than with the political aspects.  Although I do think churches could do a better job at providing some social support than the government does.  Doesn't necessarily mean every church would; they are run by people with flaws, afterall.
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Tshern

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Re: Capitalism V Communism
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2008, 08:38:53 PM »
Been through this debate time and time again, but here I go. Yes, I support communism. If anyone wants to ask my opinion on anything concerning this or other political issues, please do, I am all for discussing.

Anyway, to elaborate a little further on what I think, I must first say that up to date, there has never been a true communist state as at least ninjarabbit pointed out. All attempts at this have either never been trying to achieve communism or failed right after the beginning. I would like to give an honourable mention to Chile for working under socialism very effectively until the USA popped in to give Pinochet a hand. I did an extensive project about this, so I am more than willing to discuss this as well in case someone disagrees or wants some information. Another honourable mention to Yugoslavia and Tito.

The USSR was the first officially communist nation in the world as we all know. However, they never became communist by definition. Lenin died too young a man to actually carry out his plans and Stalins' regime was a lot more brutal and less constructive. Too bad this happened, it had potential.

Moreover, I am not too much of a supporter of traditional communism, but rather the deeper and mor extensive version of it. That includes slowly getting rid of the nation per se and keep people living without a political engine telling them what to do. The greatest flaw of this system is that you have to include the entire globe or it is doomed to fail and even then there needs to be a long incubation period during which the nation slowly withers away and gives the population time to adjust. Time in the order of decades that is.

Capitalism by default.

A true communist state will never be able to occur due to the need for a ruling class and just basic human nature in general and quasi-Communist states like China, Cuba, and the USSR are little more than glorified dictatorships.
Well, so is the USA, but too little people actually talk about it.

Quote from: ninjarabbit
Dubai in the Middle East is pretty damn close. That place has no income taxes and special tax-free zones for businesses. Pretty all the services there are paid for by oil revenues. Dubai has expericenced extremely rapid growth within the last 15 years or so and many multinational businesses like Haliburton have moved their base of operations there. It'll be interesting to see how things turn out in 25 years or so there.
I am fairly sure you got this one wrong. IIRC Dubai's oil revenue go to the bank account of the royal family while taxation on imports actually run the country along with occasional loans given by the royal family.

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EjoThims

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Re: Capitalism V Communism
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2008, 08:42:09 PM »
Well, so is the USA, but too little people actually talk about it.

Nah, it's an Oligarchy. Not of Congress, but of Lobbyists and Corporations.

skydragonknight

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Re: Capitalism V Communism
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2008, 08:46:19 PM »
Capitalism by default.

A true communist state will never be able to occur due to the need for a ruling class and just basic human nature in general and quasi-Communist states like China, Cuba, and the USSR are little more than glorified dictatorships.
Well, so is the USA, but too little people actually talk about it.

Correction, the United States is a Two-Party Dictatorship
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EjoThims

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Re: Capitalism V Communism
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2008, 08:53:11 PM »

Correction, the United States is a Two-Party Dictatorship

The party system really doesn't matter. No matter who's elected it's the same people buying the decisions.