An Observation and a Question

[AndyJames]

It was Labour Weekend here. Which means a long weekend. Yay. If only there was actually anything to do that don't involve getting drunk out of your skull and then getting behind the wheel of a car. Or sandflies. Or being out in the Sun wherein even SPF gazillion sunblock won't save you from skin cancer (highest rate per capita of melanoma in the world, and don't you forget it).

But it wasn't all bad. Had a mellow gathering with some friends, and during the conversation, which inevitably gravitated to the upcoming elections, I noted something:

The Kiwis (and those who were born in Retardland) were moaning about the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer (something about National's tax cuts, which, if you look at it, gave the poor a higher percentage of cuts than the rich, but the raw numbers for the rich were higher). They were also moaning about how the rich should help the poor, and how they hate the fat cats and their flash cars and houses (sounds familiar, eh?). The migrants (just a couple of us) were saying that they or their parents worked to get where they are now. The Kiwis replied with "You're rich, you don't know what it is like to be poor." Then they started attacking Asian parents that give their kids everything, and insulting the Asian kids for not being independent, etc.

So, there I was, sitting there, going WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot And then, it hit me, the glaring difference between Kiwis (and maybe most Caucasian families as well, judging from some of the stuff posted here) and the rest of the world.

The Kiwi families kick their kids out at 18 and practically cut them off financially. The kids have to "learn to be independent" and "live on their own two feet". This means that every generation, the kids have to start from the bottom of the pile, only going up as far as their own effort (which in the case of Kiwis, is not a heck of a lot) can lift them in one lifetime.

The migrant families, particularly the Asian ones, pass on their work from one generation to the next. Grandpa will start from the bottom, lacking even an education. He would slave and toil as a factory worker, unskilled labour, etc. He puts Dad through school and even fund his university education. Dad then gets a relatively good job and is much higher on the social ladder than Grandpa could ever dream of. Then Dad will use his earned wealth to fund Child's education and welfare and Child will do the same for Grandchild. Each generation climbs higher and higher, becoming more and more affluent.

So, we have the fruits of one generation on one hand, and the fruits of multiple generations on the other.

On one hand, we see people who moan about the wealth gap. On the other, people who see nothing wrong with a system which rewards the hardworking.

On one hand we see people who want wealth NOW! They want to make it NOW! It is all about me me me! On the other, we see people who see the long term, who care for their future family and want to ensure that the next generation is better off than this one.

On one hand, we see jealousy and hatred for the affluent. On the other, we see people who strive to join the affluent.

Now, my question is: How does this observation stack up where you are? Do you see the same type of social/cultural divide?

[Tshern]

Nice block of text, let's see if I can be productive too.

Finland is a very messed up place when it comes to money. Income tax is superhigh, corporate tax is not that much better and we have very few people living in a relatively large country (a lot larger than England, Scotland and Wales combined). Practically speaking, this means we have plenty of wealthy people, but hardly any rich ones.

I am from a family of people who have worked their fingers to the bone for generations and though some branches of my dear family tree are actually millionaires, it's not sprinkling down my way. For all I know, here we work to make sure our kids can take it relatively easily until they move out and then they are mostly on their own. Free universities help a lot here and men usually move on their own later than women, because of the compulsory military service, which gives you enough money to get a pack of cigarettes a day.

The prospects of getting rich in Finland are too small for people actually killing themselves with work to make sure their kids have a chance to become astonishingly wealthy, but we are diligent by nature. Having said that, I suppose we are quite short-sighted (especially our National Coalition), but we still work to bring up our kids in a hospitable environment.

[CountArioch]

Well, my family has stuck together pretty thick for about 5 generations on my father's side and eight generations on my mother's side, counting myself.  Working together has allowed us to survive fairly well throughout the trials, when you have 4 or 5 incomes coming in a household, it makes things a lot easier when it comes to bad stuff happening to us individually.

However, collectively our family has been broke for a very long time, my dad's family never become prominent since coming to this country, and my mother's side has been poor pretty much since Sherman burned down my Great-great-grandfather's farm.  However, we managed to get by through some tough spots. 

And guess what?  When billionaire speculative investors cause our economy to crash without any form of retribution, it really pisses me off!  A select few are stealing the futures of millions of people and getting billions off it.  Rich doctors?  You worked you ass off in med school and are probably working your ass off until you retire, have a bottle of good scotch and a nice house, you earned it.  Invent something that benefits the lives a millions?  It's Miller time, enjoy.  I don't mind when people contribute somehow and get money. 

I just get deeply offended when my life gets harder because someone wants money without contributing anything.  Everyone should work, if your back ain't hurting, you ain't getting paid, that's my motto.

[Tshern]

And guess what?  When billionaire speculative investors cause our economy to crash without any form of retribution, it really pisses me off!  A select few are stealing the futures of millions of people and getting billions off it.

I actually chuckled a little when I read the executive board of AIG went on a 440k dollar spa vacation after the government bailout...

[AndyJames]

That sort of illustrates my point, Tshern. When you don't feel the need to strive, then you have lost the right to bitch at others who do. Yes, your country's tax system is a disincentive to do so, but that is your call. I believe that you are all for such tax measures which is an off-shoot of your social requirements.

Thing is, all this talk of rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer is true only because the parents of the current generation refuse to give their kids a leg up. You will note that very few traditional Asian kids will subscribe to that view of the world because their families would be giving them all the possible opportunities to get ahead. They know that affluence is, if not within their grasp, will at least be within the grasp of their kids or grandkids.

To me, that is the fundamental difference between the two groups I see here in NZ, and the root of all the jealousy and hatred from the lunatic fringe. The solution really, is simple: Look after your kids!

But, of course, that won't work, because then you'll end up with a bunch of "mommy's boys" :rolleyes Sometimes, you just can't win with whiners...

EDIT: Yeah, I'm ranting a bit. Sorry. It really annoys me when idiots denigrate others out of sheer jealousy.

[Tshern]

Then you misunderstood my point, I meant people in here often see no reason to take excessive risks, because it would cost them too dearly in comparison to what can be gained. While it is relatively easy to actually make a few million euros, getting billions is next to impossible. Hardly anyone actually strives to get billions, because that is nigh-impossible in all countries, in Finland people just know it.

[Kari]

And guess what?  When billionaire speculative investors cause our economy to crash without any form of retribution, it really pisses me off!  A select few are stealing the futures of millions of people and getting billions off it.

I actually chuckled a little when I read the executive board of AIG went on a 440k dollar spa vacation after the government bailout...

Actually, that one drew governmental ire. They were threatened with all kinds of nasty things if they didn't stop, and like good little boys and girls, they went "oh, my bad, we'll stop all this stuff until the 'crisis' is over".

On topic...

In my area we don't have a big 'cultural divide'. At least, not that I ever see. Mind you, I live in Disney area. Yeah, I know[/i[ there are rich peole somewhere around here, but honestly, most of them are white people... and even then, I still don't know of all that many. Of course, this may also be because I don't have much of a social life.  :-\

[Omen of Peace]

Thing is, all this talk of rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer is true only because the parents of the current generation refuse to give their kids a leg up. You will note that very few traditional Asian kids will subscribe to that view of the world because their families would be giving them all the possible opportunities to get ahead. They know that affluence is, if not within their grasp, will at least be within the grasp of their kids or grandkids.

That's all well and good if the so-called "social ladder" actually works, i.e. it's possible to end up high when starting low. In many places if you start out poor and uneducated you get a crappy education and then a crappy job and you're not really any better than your parents (of course I'm oversimplifying).

[off-topic] Where are you and your family from, AJ ? From what you're saying I get the feeling you're of Asian descent but I could be way off base.

[AndyJames]

Does it really matter what race I am, OoP?

The thing is, I have seen a family who's only business is selling food by the roadside (a hawker, if you will), send their kids through university in a foreign country. We are talking people who gets 2-4 dollar per serving. That is a lot of meals to sell, particularly when we are talking about an exchange rate of 2-3 dollars to the US dollar. Yet, they could do it, and their kids would do even better, with a university education.

I don't see why other people cannot, but instead whine about how "trapped" they are.

Sure, the parents in that example might not go much further than as the owner of a roadside foodstall, but their kids can and did go much further. The problem I see is that in many "European" (if you will, for lack of a better word) cultures, it seems that it is the normal for the kids to start right back at the foodstall "stage" of the game. All in the name of "teaching them independance". I can see where that would cause them to look with green eyes (i.e., jealousy) at those people who were "not taught independance" and were helped by the previous generation.

However, is that really a fair view of those who got the leg up? Is it their fault for having parents who cared enough and were forward thinking to give them a boost? I do not think so. I think that the problem lies with the... err... "European" mindset more than anything else.

[fil kearney]

Seattle Times Newspaper Saturday October 25th 2008

(and I'll paraphrase here)
Republicans are 13% more likely to be "very happy" than democrats.
Conservatives are 10% more likely to be "very happy" than liberals.

Key difference:
Republicans believe they should be rewarded for their own efforts
Democrats believe government should assist in everyone's prosperity
Conservatives believe it is by one's own merit that they succeed
Liberals believe everything should be provided for.

Boils down to:
Those who take personal responsiblity, and feel they have an individual chance to succeed in society feel great when they DO succeed, and feel not so unhappy when things go wrong: the short of it,
"If I take destiny in my own hands, I can become anything I want." = happier
"I can't succeed unless government gives it to me" = not nearly as happy

There's those two types of people anywhere: those that strive for more and those that wait for a hand out.  
Seems pretty on topic: Seattle is a very liberal state.  Interesting to see such an article in the primary newspaper.

[Omen of Peace]

Does it really matter what race I am, OoP?

Not really, that's why I labeled it as off-topic. I actually asked about nationality more than race (I'm European and we think in those terms !).

Sure, the parents in that example might not go much further than as the owner of a roadside foodstall, but their kids can and did go much further. The problem I see is that in many "European" (if you will, for lack of a better word) cultures, it seems that it is the normal for the kids to start right back at the foodstall "stage" of the game. All in the name of "teaching them independance". I can see where that would cause them to look with green eyes (i.e., jealousy) at those people who were "not taught independance" and were helped by the previous generation.

However, is that really a fair view of those who got the leg up? Is it their fault for having parents who cared enough and were forward thinking to give them a boost? I do not think so. I think that the problem lies with the... err... "European" mindset more than anything else.

Actually, in Europe too parents want the best for their kids and support them however they can (the large majority of them anyway). "Teaching independance" would actually be more of an American mindset (and I've lived there so I know what I'm talking about).
[edit: that doesn't mean American parents don't care about their kids, of course. But it's more common for them to think that their kids have to learn to fend for themselves.]

Part of the problem is that determination and family support are not enough to rise in the world. Both in Europe and the US (can't speak for the rest of the world) elites are self-reproducing - which is somewhat good following your line of thought since they benefit from a previous generation's work... but also means there's less room for others to get in. (And yes there have been studies - I'm not pulling it out of my *ss).

Republicans are 13% more likely to be "very happy" than democrats.
Conservatives are 10% more likely to be "very happy" than liberals.

Only ? The Economist mentioned a similar study months ago and I thought the gap was larger. In all fairness it's not only about government stuff. Conservatives in the US are more likely to be religious and religion gives you a purpose and a place in the world (and the afterworld !)... that helps make them happy. In contrast, liberals worry about their place in the world, etc...

[AndyJames]

You don't have to be an elite. That is the point. We are not all aiming to be Bill Gates. Just a few hundred k in the bank, and a comfortable home and car is well within the reach of 2 generations of hard work and helping hands. Invest properly and/or start a business and you can go even higher. This is far more than most have, and of course, those that the people crying about the gap between the rich and the poor.

The thing is, though, you do not start from the bottom of the scrap heap again, and come out of university so debt-ridden that you'd have to work for 3/4 of your life just to clear that initial debt. You start with a clean slate after university, maybe with a stable place to live (with the parental units) and a vehicle to get around in. You work hard, and what you earn is your own instead of the banks'. You'd be surprise how much disposable income you can get even on an entry level job (for a university grad, that is) when you are living at home and don't have a student loan to clear. After three years, I saved enough to pay my own way through a Masters degree without taking a loan from anyone.

When I look at all my uni-mates who had to take student loans, I just shake my head. It is not as if many of their parents could not afford it. They just don't want to help out. Now, the new grads are faced with a crippling debt that would take them an entire lifetime to pay (student debt in NZ is in the region of 2 billion and rising). At least 10% of their pay is taken automatically to service the debt (it is a government scheme, so there is no escape), and then another 24-33% as income tax. Add 12.5% GST (or VAT as the Brits call it), and you have pitifully little left. Then they have to pay rent, water, electricity and grocery.

If that is independence, give me slavery...!

This leads to another thing that I have noticed:
The "European/American/Kiwi" kids don't help their parents. I have noticed that even when the parents are 80 years old, and both the parent and the child are shopping together, they pay their groceries separately. That is just so weird. The mindset of the other cultures would have the kids looking after the parents when they grow old and support them financially, emotionally, etc. I just don't see that here in the Kiwi kids.

It's like they are saying "You kicked me out when I am 18, so yeah, I'm independent, but guess what? So are you." And then the parents would come back and say "Yep, you're independent, so I am free to spend up large in my dotage and have a bonfire of 100-dollar bills and leave none for you." And I am looking at them and going "WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot "

I guess I am just confused by this type of selfish behaviour more than anything else, and totally aggravated by the product of such behaviour (the aforementioned "me me me" artists).

[fil kearney]

Omen:
maybe seattle is sadder?

AJ:
Yes, they are crazy and stupid to to not help prop their kids up.  it's short sighted and selfish. 
Of course, if THEIR parents didn't get any help, they may be thinking about how the hells will they survive retiremet. If it's a choice between paying for kid's education, and stockpiling a good dose of cash to live off of when they start crapping their pants... many financial professsionals* agree that crewig the kid now may save having to depend on that same kid later due to a shortfall in money.
It's delicate, but those same folks are often buying cars and taking trips WAY too often for what their projected earnings should afford them.

[Omen of Peace]

I have to say, I've never seen anything like what you talk about, AJ. (Actually, paying separately for groceries can happen. It doesn't mean people don't help their parents.)

...

NZ is a weird place.

[AndyJames]

Fil, it is a vicious cycle:

The parents don't want to rely on the kids and so don't want to "waste money" on the kids more than the absolute bare minimum.

The kids don't feel any attachment to the parents because of the "kicking out" and don't want to spend on them, which leads to the kids not wanting to give *their* kids nice stuff to save up for their retirement.

Rinse and repeat.



And yes regarding the overspending (NZ has one of the worse income/spending ratios in the world). I have seen one case of a Kiwi whose business is going down the gurgler. Instead of taking out a loan to help save the business, he took out a loan so that he and his wife can go on a holiday "to get away from the stress for a while". Whiskey. Tango. F-? Overspending is definitely a major problem here.



OoP, which part?

[Omen of Peace]

The parents don't want to rely on the kids and so don't want to "waste money" on the kids more than the absolute bare minimum.

The kids don't feel any attachment to the parents because of the "kicking out" and don't want to spend on them, which leads to the kids not wanting to give *their* kids nice stuff to save up for their retirement.

That part more than the rest. I mean, I can see it happening in some families (generally because of deep-rooted relational issues), but made into systematic behavior... I have trouble imagining what it's like.

[AndyJames]

*shrugs*

I am attributing motives to observed behaviour. Take it with a grain of salt (or a cellar of it). The observed behaviour is real. The motives, on the other hand... Your guess is as good as mine.

[Omen of Peace]

Oh, I am, of course. This is the Internet. 

[CountArioch]

You know, AJ, you're coming off as slightly racist.  I'd cool the whole "european" angle. 

I understand you have to deal with morons on a daily basis.  That doesn't give you the right to paint me with the same brush.

[CountArioch]

I'm making a second post, because I've asked AJ in the past to not edit his posts immediately after making them, and I will extend the same respect to him that I ask by not editing my immediately after making them.

You see, I don't see the attitude you describe at all.  Every family I know, poor to middle class, stick together like glue.  (The richest people I know are either upper middle class or lower upper class, not sure where the distinction lies.)  I don't see parents kicking out kids at all, everyone supports everyone to the best of their abilities that I know.  And most of the people I know are white, middle eastern, and hispanic.  (I don't know a lot of blacks or asians, there just aren't a lot around here.  I know a couple black people, and I've dated asian women in the past, but I don't claim to know them that well.)

What I DO see are kids setting out on their own and refusing help from their parents to prove themselves.  And I don't ever hear them bitching, the people that bitch the most are the people that have the most money (go fig).  Poor kids already know how to be broke and eat ramen noodles twice a day, it's a bit of a shock to the middle class kids. 

What you see a lot are people like me, families that have worked their asses off for generations and never made it.  And inheritance is rare.  Sure, I've had a lot of relatives make some decent money, but they spent it all on medical care in late life.  (My great grandmother had a good bit of money squirreled away, and the nursing home she spent the last years of her life not only took it all, but seized her house and all her property.  That pretty much happens to anyone that isn't a millionaire.)

I pretty much had to take student loans.  No one in my family can afford the 4,000/year tuition or the 800/year I spend in textbooks. When I finish community college, I can expect to pay around 8,000/year in tuition.  No one in my family has that kind of money.  They'd give me anything and everything if they had it, it's just not there to give.  (Not to mention that working full time is nearly impossible unless you want to work swing shift factory work, there's literally no non-factory jobs for unskilled workers around here.  Granted, I'm a highly certified and licensed wastewaterworks operator, but I refuse to rick my health and safety anymore for money, I almost died three times from accidents at work, and one time from cholera.  (That shit is no fucking joke, I lost 20 pounds in three days, and it took me over a month to fully recover.)  Money was great, but I had to sacrifice too much for that job.

Right now, I'm hoping to get my bachelor's degree.  That's something, at least.  Maybe if I ever marry again, my children will get a boost up and get to do a bit better than I did.  But who knows.