Upcoming 4E books

[Dan2]

Which ones do you think will be worth what the cost?

Which ones are you looking forward to?

I'm anticipating Player's Handbook 2 and the Arcane Power supplement (in April)

It seems to me that they'll run out of ways to balance the powers, but still keep it new/interesting...

Your thoughts?

[PhoenixInferno]

Martial Power could be interesting - the Beastmaster Ranger is intriguing, and hopefully, the new Fighter power trees will be worthwhile.  Arcane Power is interesting, but I'm biased since I'm playing a Swordmage, which I hope will get some support.

[X-Codes]

Arcane Power, Martial Power, the PHB II, and the various monster books are all interesting to me... but I'm not going to buy any more 4e books until I'm quite certain they're not the same degree of crap (or worse) that the FRCS and FRPG turned out to be.

[Dan2]

I agree that the Forgotten Realms supplements were stupid.

When even game designers have to resort to "magic did it" to explain a large part of the world, you know you should drop it.

It's why I'm going to continue not allowing FR material in my games.

However, Adventurer's Vault had some decent material.  The only problem is that they don't seem to realize how close they are coming to "breaking" their game with the items.

But that's a discussion about saves for another time...

[Risada]

It's why I'm going to continue not allowing FR material in my games.

Poor Swordmage.... he didn't do anything...

[Dan2]

It's why I'm going to continue not allowing FR material in my games.

Poor Swordmage.... he didn't do anything...

He's the one thing I regret losing in my games.  Luckily for me, nobody has wanted to play one yet.

[X-Codes]

I agree that the Forgotten Realms supplements were stupid.

When even game designers have to resort to "magic did it" to explain a large part of the world, you know you should drop it.

It's why I'm going to continue not allowing FR material in my games.

However, Adventurer's Vault had some decent material.  The only problem is that they don't seem to realize how close they are coming to "breaking" their game with the items.

But that's a discussion about saves for another time...

That's not even why I call them crap.  I call them crap because the Spellscarred powers and all but 4-5 Paragon Paths are sheer and utter crap.  A lot of the feats are crap, too.  It's just an alarmingly crappy sourcebook, and it's starting to make me think that the game designers are already running out of ideas for 4e.

[PhoenixInferno]

That's not even why I call them crap.  I call them crap because the Spellscarred powers and all but 4-5 Paragon Paths are sheer and utter crap.  A lot of the feats are crap, too.  It's just an alarmingly crappy sourcebook, and it's starting to make me think that the game designers are already running out of ideas for 4e.

This is different from 3.X...how?  You could make Complete Crap I, II, III with the garbage PrCs that were published - and only PrCs.

[Dan2]

What I'm afraid of is that they'll find that they've left themselves no way to make new powers without repeating other powers.
There's only so much stuff you can do with the formula they have.

The only way they can create variety is by adding new effects for hits/misses/effects.
I feel like I'm being vague, can everyone understand what I'm saying?

[X-Codes]

That's not even why I call them crap.  I call them crap because the Spellscarred powers and all but 4-5 Paragon Paths are sheer and utter crap.  A lot of the feats are crap, too.  It's just an alarmingly crappy sourcebook, and it's starting to make me think that the game designers are already running out of ideas for 4e.

This is different from 3.X...how?  You could make Complete Crap I, II, III with the garbage PrCs that were published - and only PrCs.

Most 3.5 splats had a few good PrCs, a lot of mediocre ones that often made for good dips or filler, and maybe one or two that was so bad it was unplayable.  In FRPG, there were 5 PPs that WotC was essentially required to put in so that Swordmages and Dark Warlocks got their base PP Support, then there was one good one, and then a lot of crap.  I'd compare it to Complete Psionic in terms of quality, but I think Complete Psionic's been bashed enough.

[PhoenixInferno]

Of the remaining PPs that are not "required", how many of them are "unplayable"?  And out of all the Player's Handbook paragon paths, how many of those were crap too?

I didn't bother much with Spellscars because I intend to play mostly in the Living campaign where Spellscarred characters are more closely controlled.

[X-Codes]

Elemental Tempest is broken unplayable as printed, and Spellscarred Savant has extraordinarily crappy powers almost to the point where it, too, is broken.  Whirlwind Genasi is interesting, but also unclear as printed (Tumbling Gale has no range).

That leaves lots of crap.  War Wizard of Cormyr is crap, Sword Coast Corsair is decent at best, Steelsky Liberator is decent against big things (especially dragons) but crap against most stuff, Spellguard Wizard is barely mediocre,  Silverstar is crap, Heartwarder is crap, Evermeet Warlock is barely decent, Drow Wanderers can always find something better to do, and Doomguides can't decide whether they want to be crappy leaders or crappy defenders.

Simbarch of Aglarond is only really good against Elites and Solos and sub-par against anything else, Purple Dragon Knight has some neat tricks but isn't that hot, same goes for Morninglord.  Impilturian Demonslayer is good against demons, but not so hot otherwise, Eartheart Defender is a decent PP.

The one good PP that I haven't talked about is Ghost of Eventide.  That one is cool.  That said, we're still talking about 2 PPs that are either broken or have broken features, 10 crap PPs, 5 mediocre PPs, and then the stuff they had to do to make good.

As for crappy PPs in the PHB, I wouldn't call any of them outright crappy by the same standards as the ones here, they're all at least on the same level as the "decent" PPs in this book.  There are, however, some with broken mechanics.

[Dan2]

On a reveiw, it looks like a lot of them.

They aren't "unplayable" in that all of them can be played, but so many of them just suck so hard...

Drow Wanderer
Earthhear Defender
Elemental Tempest
High Forest Scout
Impilturan Demonslayer
Purple Dragon Knight
Spellguard Wizard
Spellscarred Savant (not certain)
Steelsky Liberator
Sword Coast Corsair
War Wizard of Cormyr

There are probably others that don't deserve to be absent from this list.

X-Codes listed why for a lot of them.  They either aren't good, or are far too specific.

[PhoenixInferno]

And how is that different from things from PrCs from Complete Adventurer?  Excluding the stuff that "had" to be in there, 2 good out of 15?  Sounds about right.  I mean, how do you excuse garbage like Ollam (Complete Adventurer) or Shadowspy (Complete Champion)?

Spellscars are meant to be flavor really, so if they suck, I don't care.

So I think you're overreacting a little.  I mean, how much more power creep do you want to see?

[X-Codes]

And how is that different from things from PrCs from Complete Adventurer?  Excluding the stuff that "had" to be in there, 2 good out of 15?  Sounds about right.  I mean, how do you excuse garbage like Ollam (Complete Adventurer) or Shadowspy (Complete Champion)?

Spellscars are meant to be flavor really, so if they suck, I don't care.

If you want to compare it to Complete Adventuer, then how does the FRPG compensate for not having any new weapons, new magic items, new powers for classes other than the Warlock?  Regional bonuses?  Even if the ratio of good "PrC-like things" is the same (which it isn't, CA's is actually slightly better), the book is all-around poorer when it comes to other forms of supplemental material.  By the way, did I mention that it's absurdly short for a campaign setting book?  170 pages.  That's it.  Complete Adventurer was 190 and had barely any fluff at all.  The FRPG was at least 1/3 fluff and was only 170 pages.

When it comes to the Elemental Tempest powers, he really is broken.  The powers have essentially no chance of ever hitting come Epic Tier.  If that gets fixed in errata, then it's still only going to get moved up to suck because the effects of the powers and abilities are still... suck.

Spellscarred Savant is suck because you're almost never going to actually use that Encounter power from the class unless you wield a Necrotic weapon and have melee stats, but then your Daily will either be based off a mental score or just plain suck.  The features really aren't bad, but the powers are the crap, but the powers are picked from a list, but even then the list is crap...  Yeah, Spellscarred Savant might be good after a splat or two.  Until then, it's crap.

So I think you're overreacting a little.  I mean, how much more power creep do you want to see?

I'm not looking for power creep, I'm looking for viable alternatives.  There were some unique ideas presented in the FRPG that were given such laughably low numbers that it comes out simply not being viable in the end, so what kinda seems to be happening is that in order to avoid power creep they're making splats have poor character options, but that actually achieves the opposite effect because poor character options are options that will be widely avoided and not actually make up a significant part of the played characters at all.  If nobody plays them, what good are they?

Besides, there were a lot of supplements better than Complete Adventurer released between then and now.  Complete Mage had a lot of very viable dual-casting options despite the power-creepiness of Unseen Seer.  Complete Champion didn't have much power creep because of the lack of full-casting PrCs, but had a lot of unique and interesting options in the feats section.  Tome of Magic created mostly great alternative magic systems that while they were a step or two behind the core casters were a lot more interesting and varied (although Truenaming was obviously flawed), and the same goes for Magic of Incarnum.  I know a lot of people didn't like that book, but frankly they're the ones missing out.

What I want to know is why Wizards can't produce that kind of quality material more often?  That's the kind of stuff I want to spend $30 on, but instead I get something more like Complete Psionic.  A character that can take advantage of the stuff will use it, but the stuff really isn't enticing people to play it.

[PhoenixInferno]

And how is that different from things from PrCs from Complete Adventurer?  Excluding the stuff that "had" to be in there, 2 good out of 15?  Sounds about right.  I mean, how do you excuse garbage like Ollam (Complete Adventurer) or Shadowspy (Complete Champion)?

Spellscars are meant to be flavor really, so if they suck, I don't care.

If you want to compare it to Complete Adventuer, then how does the FRPG compensate for not having any new weapons, new magic items, new powers for classes other than the Warlock?  Regional bonuses?  Even if the ratio of good "PrC-like things" is the same (which it isn't, CA's is actually slightly better), the book is all-around poorer when it comes to other forms of supplemental material.  By the way, did I mention that it's absurdly short for a campaign setting book?  170 pages.  That's it.  Complete Adventurer was 190 and had barely any fluff at all.  The FRPG was at least 1/3 fluff and was only 170 pages.

It doesn't have to compensate for items and stuff - their business strategy is to write books that are largely about 1 topic, hence Adventurer's Vault.  Comparing page count is somewhat misleading because a 10 level prestige classes took a lot of space to write, whereas most paragon paths fit on a page.

I don't disagree that Elemental Tempest is broken as written.  And I don't really care whether spellscars are good or not - they tried an alternate system and it failed - much as Shadow Magic (Tome of Magic) did.  It happens.

So I think you're overreacting a little.  I mean, how much more power creep do you want to see?

I'm not looking for power creep, I'm looking for viable alternatives.  There were some unique ideas presented in the FRPG that were given such laughably low numbers that it comes out simply not being viable in the end, so what kinda seems to be happening is that in order to avoid power creep they're making splats have poor character options, but that actually achieves the opposite effect because poor character options are options that will be widely avoided and not actually make up a significant part of the played characters at all.  If nobody plays them, what good are they?

What I want to know is why Wizards can't produce that kind of quality material more often?  That's the kind of stuff I want to spend $30 on, but instead I get something more like Complete Psionic.  A character that can take advantage of the stuff will use it, but the stuff really isn't enticing people to play it.

The balance between mechanically interesting and extreme power creep is a fine line to walk.  Power creep also alienates the fan base - not everyone wants to buy the latest and greatest all the time.

[awaken DM golem]

Power creep is inevitable.
If they just shot the wide gap of:  below average, slightly below average, and boring average ...
then the slow accumulation of combo's would float all boats upward.
That some things are still being published, as broken bad = CO-board collectively says 
Broken good, that's for us to find.

CPsi ?
{ ... insert Dice Clay saying Roseanne Barr naked - smiley face ... }
you just had to go and ruin my day, dint'cha.

[X-Codes]

It doesn't have to compensate for items and stuff - their business strategy is to write books that are largely about 1 topic, hence Adventurer's Vault.  Comparing page count is somewhat misleading because a 10 level prestige classes took a lot of space to write, whereas most paragon paths fit on a page.

That's really the core of the problem.  In the best possible light, the FRPG was written like they went and wrote Complete Adventurer again, except this time they just stopped writing when they finished the feats section and charged full price for it anyway.  In my opinion, the stuff they did actually write was a lot lower in quality than the stuff from Complete Adventuer, so you're getting half of a shitty splat for full book price.

[Dan2]

As I've said before, I didn't like either of the Forgotten Realms books that have been released, but I'm going to postpone my judgment of 4E supplements in general until after they release PHB2.
If they screw that up, then they've probably lost me as a buyer.