Author Topic: (3.5) Magic adaption to ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal  (Read 8445 times)

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bkdubs123

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Re: (3.5) Magic adaption to ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2008, 06:34:07 AM »
Actually, bkdubs,  instead of 'locking' points used that way(which is excessively elaborate IMO), the simplest solution is to just make it require 5 minutes flat to recover any points, with buffs and whatever long duration debuffs you are sustaining not recovering. The biggest flaw is in having different spells recharge at different rates, which takes away one of the big merits of a point based system, that you don't have to care what spell you casted, just how much it cost you.

In my opinion when you're dealing with 3.5 spellcasting you bloody well should have to care what you're casting. Spells are the most powerful effects in the game, hands down, and handing their effects out in an "at-will" or "per encounter" basis, regardless of what level the spells is, is just bad for game balance.

Quote
Alternatively, make it so that different increments of the pool recover at different rates. When you have only 0-1/4 left, recovery to 1/4 is an action(you shouldn't be able to fuel your top level spells with this little points anyway at least not without spending every other round recharging), 1/4-2/4 takes 5 minutes to bring you back to half full, 2/4-3/4 takes an hour to reach 3/4 and 3/4 takes the full 8 hours rest to recharge to a full tank. Your highest level spell should probably cost around 1/4 of your current reserve this way.

See, this is really at least as elaborate as my method, but it makes less sense, again, IMO. Why would anyone ever recover to full then? They just don't need to. You still have plenty of points at 3/4 to cast your highest level spells, and certainly at 1/2 to cast mid levels ones every 5 minutes.

Quote
Still elaborate, but without having to track what spells used what points, only what spells Active are currently holding onto points. As you run down, you get low on points, and once you hit the bottom, your highest level spells are essentially locked out, or left with maybe 1 shot per round, with any ongoing buffs speeding that up..

It really wouldn't be "tracking" points per se. I mean, you have to spent them when you cast the spell anyway. So when you cast a spell that's too high you've lost those points for the day. Cast a moderately high level spell you lose your points for 5 minutes, etc.

Allow me to illustrate my point a bit more clearly. A 9th level Wizard can cast up to 5th level spells and has 14SP, and can recover up to 9SP with a standard action or 5 minutes' rest. When he casts 1st and 2nd level spells the points used can be recovered with a standard action. When he casts 3rd and 4th level spells the points can be recovered with 5 minutes' rest. He can't recover spell points used to cast 5th level spells without 8 hours' rest (barring any feat shenanigans this system will surely produce). *Spellcasters can't lock duration spells unless they can recover the points used to cast them with a standard action.

Spells Prepared
1st - Shield, Mage Armor, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement
2nd - Scorching Ray, Glitterdust, Ghoul Touch, Summon Monster II
3rd - Haste, Fly, Deep Slumber
4th - Evard's Black Tentacles, Rainbow Pattern
5th - Baleful Polymorph

So, He has Shield, Mage Armor, and Summon Monster II cast and their points locked (Persistent Spell). So his total goes down to 10SP. He could cast 10 Rays of Enfeeblement, or 2 Glitterdust and 3 Scorching Rays before using a standard action to recover up to 9 points (which is basically all he needs anyway, maybe should change). Once per encounter he can cast any of Haste, Fly, Deep Slumber, Evard's Black Tentacles, or Rainbow Pattern, but in so doing he lowers his blasting potential for the rest of the encounter, in exchange for much more powerful effects. These spell can't be "persisted" and run on their standard durations (perhaps ought to be changed to 1/round per level for all duration effects?). Once per 8 hours he can cast Baleful Polymorph causing a foe to save or die. This costs him 9 of his 14SP and locks the points away until he rests for 8 hours. This largely discouraging situation basically forces the player to save his highest level magic until the party needs it the most or until the party fights BBEG.

@Fil: I understand if you don't want to use this recovery method, but I think I'd like to experiment with it a little more if that's okay with you. I am of course doing my rabalance Core thing, and I think this system might just work. Of course, with your permission to use it, I'd give you credit for coming up with the original idea.

veekie

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Re: (3.5) Magic adaption to ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2008, 07:22:03 AM »
Quote
In my opinion when you're dealing with 3.5 spellcasting you bloody well should have to care what you're casting. Spells are the most powerful effects in the game, hands down, and handing their effects out in an "at-will" or "per encounter" basis, regardless of what level the spells is, is just bad for game balance.
Agreed, but tracking which point went to what spell adds an unnecessary level of clunk to it, making it inferior to vancian as far as ease of play goes. My earlier numbers were asspulled, and if you reduced the pool size so that you can only chuck your biggest spell say 1+(fraction)/day(and hence your mid ranges are at /encounter and your level 1s and 2s at essentially at will), that might do the trick. The goal was to limit the number of powerful spells they could cast in a given encounter with that, while increasing the number of lower level spells they can hurl.

Of course, there remains low level spells with disproportionate effects. No argument there. Still, one of the biggest pains with the spell recharge system is noting how different spells recover at different rates, and this does the same for the spell points expended. You'd tend to find clunkiness a bigger put off than most mechanical imbalances for players.
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bkdubs123

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Re: (3.5) Magic adaption to ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2008, 08:05:31 AM »
That's a huge problem in UA because there's no coherence. Different spells within the same spell level take longer to recharge than others. Basically every spell has it's own unique charge time (or rather, there's enough arbitrariness to feel that way anyway). I don't really think my idea makes it unwieldy. You spend the points and depending on the level of spell you just cast you might not have those points available for a while. It isn't as though you have to worry about the points after you've cast the spell. You simply set them aside until you can recover them. Essentially you'd have three stacks of SP - Combat Recovery SP, Out of Combat Recovery SP, and Extended Rest Recovery SP.

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Re: (3.5) Magic adaption to ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2008, 08:53:16 AM »
A lot of UA material is out-the-ass. Good intention, bad balance. Its spell recharge times are a prime example.

Recharge should be as by class and spell level, not spell. Anything deemed "too good" to recharged quickly should simply be limited to per day anyway. Anything useful enough to recharge in a matter of rounds should be at-will.

bkdubs123

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Re: (3.5) Magic adaption to ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2008, 09:42:03 AM »
Yes, which is what I'm hoping to make easier on myself right now, by going through the spell lists I'm going to use for my Spellcaster's Sanctum content and rooting out all the stuff that's not even good enough to be spells, the stuff that's just too good to exist, and moving around effects that are too weak or too powerful for their levels.

Once I get that done I'll post it up in my thread.

EDIT: One problem I'm coming across is that, since Wizards will have more spells known than Sorcerers, they will be able to pick up spells that aren't all that useful at the present but can be used as they gain levels to greater effect. However, if Wizards have to "ready" spells like ToB classes, but Sorcerers do not then it may not be that much of an issue...
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 09:46:14 AM by bkdubs123 »

veekie

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Re: (3.5) Magic adaption to ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2008, 11:06:55 AM »
EDIT: One problem I'm coming across is that, since Wizards will have more spells known than Sorcerers, they will be able to pick up spells that aren't all that useful at the present but can be used as they gain levels to greater effect. However, if Wizards have to "ready" spells like ToB classes, but Sorcerers do not then it may not be that much of an issue...
Yeah, go with that.

A lot of UA material is out-the-ass. Good intention, bad balance. Its spell recharge times are a prime example.

Recharge should be as by class and spell level, not spell. Anything deemed "too good" to recharged quickly should simply be limited to per day anyway. Anything useful enough to recharge in a matter of rounds should be at-will.

Actually, I'm thinking that anything thats deemed too good to recharge at the same rate as it's fellow spells is probably at the wrong spell level. With this system, it's fundamental premise is that the spell effects are on some level equivalent to martial maneuvers or at least on a linear level of difference. The base concept is very nice, but you'd need a rewrite for a lot of spells before it's 'safe'

Now if you converted 4e's stuff into this system....theres a good bit more parity.
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bkdubs123

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Re: (3.5) Magic adaption to ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2008, 11:16:19 AM »
Another thing I'm seeing in regulating the points like I've been advocating is that at 17th level a Wizard can cast fireball numerous times during an encounter much like a Swordsage could be using Inferno Blast many times during an encounter at the same level. So, what I'm seeing is that the Wizard's 1st-3rd level spells are roughly equivalent to ToB manuevers all the way to 9th level. Seems to be really crazy given that Wizards still have 6 levels of spells to play with, but then again, Wizards (under my system) can only cast so many high level spells per day before they burn themselves out completely and they can only feasibly cast the 4-6 level spells once each encounter. And for further balance, of course, Wizards have low hitpoints and terrible defenses, not to mention are all but useless if they aren't casting spells.

It seems to work out decently well. All I need to finish is sorting out spells.

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Re: (3.5) Magic adaption to ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2008, 02:07:49 PM »
Actually, I'm thinking that anything thats deemed too good to recharge at the same rate as it's fellow spells is probably at the wrong spell level. With this system, it's fundamental premise is that the spell effects are on some level equivalent to martial maneuvers or at least on a linear level of difference. The base concept is very nice, but you'd need a rewrite for a lot of spells before it's 'safe'

Now if you converted 4e's stuff into this system....theres a good bit more parity.

True. Many spells need a bump or two up before becoming playable at a given encounter level, thanks to lagging defenses and skyrocketing SoDs.

4e is mostly slinging variations of weapon damage at someone, a fistful of typed damage with effect, or sliding. Seriously not much else to the game beyond that.
While it would indeed convert well, the enjoyment would be... limited.

4e + spell points + classless might have redeeming qualities though!

fil kearney

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Re: (3.5) Magic adaption to ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2008, 03:22:55 PM »
Siggy: I agree with you on 4e; dull.
classless + generic power point usage could be more fun. 


I'll let someone else tackle that.


BK: of course be welcome to use what you want of this.

Here's my thought regarding your idea:
I think the break between at will, rest, and extended rest can be viable. 

CL ExRe    Rest    AtWi
01 1
02
03 2          1
04
05 3          2        1 <--
06
07 4,3        2       1
08
09 5,4      3,2       1
10
11 6,5      4,3     2,1 <--
12
13 7,6,5    4,3     2,1
14
15 8,7,6   5,4,3    2,1
16
17 9,8,7  6,5,4  3,2,1 <--
18
19
20

ExRe = extended rest
Rest = 5 minute break
AtWi = standard action recover

I think this system would work without durations as well. 
--regardless of level, instant spells remove the points as normal; the class level vs spell level determines how fast those points can be restored (easily tracked in separate "recover pools"-- drop the adaptive style idea to simplify at will recovery to be a standard action.
--regardless of level, spells with duration "lock" the spell points until the effect is either dispelled, or dismissed.  At the spell's end, the points are assigned the appropriate "recover pool". 
--buffing would be as I originally stated.

To use your example (but I"m still stubbornly clinging to psionic point costs... :D):
[spoiler]
Quote
wizard 9
Spells Prepared
1st - Shield, Mage Armor, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement
2nd - Scorching Ray, Glitterdust, Ghoul Touch, Summon Monster II
3rd - Haste, Fly, Deep Slumber
4th - Evard's Black Tentacles, Rainbow Pattern
5th - Baleful Polymorph

As above, 1st level spells recover at will.
2nd and 3rd level spells recover after 5 minute rest.
4th and 5th level spells recover after extended rest.
wizard has 28 points.
"persisted" spells:
shield (1) at will recover
mage armour (1) at will recover
summon monster II (3) 5 min recover
fly (5) 5 min recover
haste (5) 5 min recover
13 of the 28 points are gone for the encounter... it will take 5 minutes to restore them if the SMII, fly, and haste are dropped/dispelled etc.
2 of the 28 can be at will recoverd if needed (MA and shield)
13 points are available to use as needed.

baleful poly would pop 9 until extended rest.
evard and rainbow would pop 7 each until extended rest.
Haste, Fly, Deep Slumber pop 5 each until 5 min rest.
Scorching Ray, Glitterdust, Ghoul Touch, Summon Monster II pop 3 each until 3 min rest.
Shield, Mage Armor, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement pop 1 each until standard action recover.
[/spoiler]

this is a bit more complicated, but you're right.. this is MUCH more restrained.
I would enjoy playing this system. 

magic items like wands and staffs could be as written, but is subject to the same recovery method...
wand of fireball:
5th level user: 1/day
15th level user: 1/5 min rest
17+ level user: 1/round

There are no spell point costs, but they are a viable method to increase spell usage.
and they could simply not work if your class (or character for UMD) level isn't high enough.. keeping difficult spells out of reach before appropriate?


I'll assume my original system of "any spell recovers at will" is too powerful (although that is a matter of how you run your campaigns...)
So I will put my weight behind this revision.  It has good linear progression, and makes spell casting much more tactical now.  Fun!
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 03:25:04 PM by fil kearney »

bkdubs123

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Re: (3.5) Magic adaption to ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2008, 04:09:33 PM »
So since this system, as an interesting side effect, makes blasting more desirable, we still do need to come up with ways to make good old rays and AoE damage spells actually useful.

How does Robby do it again? Would that way work for this system? If not, how should we go about it?

EDIT: I've been toying with the idea that, when using a spell that deals elemental damage, a spellcaster can just choose, right then, what element to use. Like, when casting Burning Hands, a caster could, on-the-fly, cast a Frigid Gust or whatever. Fireball can become Coldball. Or perhaps Sorcerer can do this on the fly, but Wizard's have to prepare them as such. No metamagic level adjustment. One spell that can deal any element for damage. Sonic and Force would have to deal less than normal, but they could still be chosen (maybe only in evocation spells) and I'm not sure on Acid. I think it ought to deal less damage too since it ignores SR and deals full damage to objects. Ideas?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 04:19:47 PM by bkdubs123 »

fil kearney

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Re: (3.5) Magic adaption to ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2008, 05:00:06 PM »
To be clear, I have no interest in changing spells in this thread, other than the uniform alteration to durations becoming "persistant".

I see this system severely reducing the amount of buffs in use at once, and now with the tiered spell level recharge delay, severely reducing high level spell use.

To clarify:
I see slow recovery spells being used repeatedly; just the points spent to use them recovering very slowly.  I think that is clear from previous posts, but I wanted to spell that out just in case.


I am personally content with this delay system (props and fu to you BK).  Unless anyone points out any glaring errors that may have been missed, I think this is pretty damn good.  It's not as elegant as my original proposal, but the delays make for good common sense. 

Looking for some "theoretical" feedback on what we have from here,

So I am going to "move on" and talk about alternate classes.
Wizard and sorceror are different... meh, slightly, in the vancian system.. I see no reason to make a difference here.  The above really has the best of both: open spellbook to prepare from, and fluid spontaneous effects.

--keep the bonus feats every 5 levels.
--(iffy?) should the longer time to add metamagic be applied?  I say yes, just to make it's use more questionable, and to eat up the strongest caster's feats.


Dread necro, warmage, and beguiler: alternate full casting "core" classes.
I think they can follow the abo e format exactly.  no need to modify the numbers: their added goodies is countered by the wizard's flexible spellbook and extra feats + familiar.

Divine casters: I don't expect there to be much issue here.  drop the favored soul to fold into cleric, Druid still remains awesome.  I don't expect there to be any real issue converting these using the same scale above... cleric's domain are just added spells known, and spontaneous casting is automatically known too.. the left over list of spells is whatever else the cleric wants.  (druid has all the summonings available automatically as well...  if druid used sorceror spells know instead of the druid's spells per day... that would knock druid back a level in casting spells, perhaps weakening the class a touch? (iffy) )

Psionic types: I'm already using the psionic point costs.  They can follow this format just as easily... I'll need to set up playtesting to see how well that goes with the 22(?) psion powers known vs. the 36 wizard has.

Bards, Psychic warriors, and "lite" casters: I"ll need to build an alternate spell point and recovery table for them.

PrCs: retooling will be needed on a case by case basis.  :/ ultimate magus may have to go away.


If others agree, I can bash out the fine print on these, and put some playtesting together.

bkdubs123

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Re: (3.5) Magic adaption to ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2008, 06:12:22 PM »
Ah, crap, my point pools are different. I have an alternate progression already, two of them actually. What's seems kind of awesome to me, is that you can make a "1/2 caster" with this system that still casts 9th level spells. You just give them REALLY bad spell points so they can only cast 1 per day, ever. But I have a 3/4 and 1/2 SP pool already written up under the assumption that spells cost SP equal to their spell level.

I'll get to calculating the psionic friendly versions later, well, tomorrow. So, if you get them done before then... well, good!  :P

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Re: (3.5) Magic adaption to ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2008, 11:26:32 PM »
For half-casters using SL9s, I suppose requiring X caster level where X is twice the spell's level then -1 is yet another Sacred Cow of D&D.

If you look at the spell effects, both scaling and nonscaling, you really could arrange them any way you see fit. Putting Fireball at SL does 1d6 per level (although range might be much, it's all relative), while putting Gate at SL2 might seem broken regarding interplanar movement the calling aspect isn't too far from level-appropriate effects; I mean that's like a total of 6 HD worth of monsters called in at level 3 with a duration of Concentration (max 1r/level).

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Re: (3.5) Magic adaption to ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2008, 11:21:24 AM »
Once per 8 hours he can cast Baleful Polymorph causing a foe to save or die. This costs him 9 of his 14SP and locks the points away until he rests for 8 hours. This largely discouraging situation basically forces the player to save his highest level magic until the party needs it the most or until the party fights BBEG.
This may or may not result in the current 15-minute adventure day.  It looks like the caster you illustrated does have some pretty good options available.  I just wonder in practice how often someone would jump straight to Baleful Polymorph and then tell everyone it's time to rest for 8 hours.

Certainly you can't to this on time critical missions, or when you're in hostile territory, but I wonder what will happen in practice.


So since this system, as an interesting side effect, makes blasting more desirable, we still do need to come up with ways to make good old rays and AoE damage spells actually useful.

How does Robby do it again? Would that way work for this system? If not, how should we go about it?
Do you mean the adjustments I've done for the damage of direct damage spells?  It's two things:

1) The first step is to increase the damage on a per-die basis.  This is to help overcome the fact that monsters add in extra HP per hit die due to a good Con score.  The formula for extra damage is that you add one point per die equal to half the spell level, round UP.  So, to show it on a table, you get:

Spell   Extra damage
Level    per die
______________________
0       0
1       1
2       1
3       2
4       2
5       3
6       3
7       4
8       4
9       5


It seems to work out fairly well from the numbers I've run.  It also seems to metamagic fairly well.  Note, that if you Empower a 3rd level spell in a 5th level slot, it still counts as a 3rd level spell for purposes of bonus damage.  However, you could Heighten a 3rd level spell into a 5th level slot to get the bonus damage per die.  It always works off the spell's level, not the slot's level.

2) I added special effects given the "type" of damage.  This typically comes from any descriptor ([fire], [cold], etc), but could also come from force, and aligned damage.  The actual effects still need to be hammered out.  Everything I've posted in this section is still tenative.
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Re: (3.5) Magic adaption to ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2008, 05:12:15 PM »
1) The first step is to increase the damage on a per-die basis.  This is to help overcome the fact that monsters add in extra HP per hit die due to a good Con score.  The formula for extra damage is that you add one point per die equal to half the spell level, round UP

I think there's better ways to state similar increases since the levels between new spell tiers get nothing. For instance, basing the damage boost off of caster level somehow..

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Re: (3.5) Magic adaption to ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2008, 05:22:02 PM »
It's possible, but it depends on how powerful you want those low-level slots to be.  With the idea I've propsed, a 20th level caster would cast a Magic Missile for 5d4+10 (same as a 9th level wizard).  If we were instead to base the numbers I posted on caster level, then that same magic missile at 20th level would deal 5d4+30 (figuring +5 per die on top of the normal damage).

Now, this is 20th level we're talking about.  Obviously that's pretty piddly damage.  It's just a question of if you think that first level slots should scale that way or not.
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[/spoiler]

SiggyDevil

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Re: (3.5) Magic adaption to ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2008, 05:43:52 PM »
Here's an old concept of mine:

http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=40044&start=0

Improved Explosions [Metamagic] v2

Your explosions explode.

Prereq: spellcaster level 1, any spell or spell-like ability that deals damage

Benefit: When the enhanced spell deals damage, increase that damage by an amount equal to the character's caster level squared, then divided by 2 (rounded down).

This extra damage is dealt at most once to each successfully damaged target in any round. The damage from this feat is of the same type as the spell.


Caster Level   Extra Damage

1      1
2      2
3      4
4      8
5      12
6      18
7      24
8      32         
9      40         
10      50         
11      60         
12      72         
13      84         
14      98         
15      112         
16      128         
17      144      
18      162         
19      180         
20      200         


When this feat is applied to a spell, the spell level does not increase.

Special: When applied to a spell any other Metamagic feats applied to it, whether applied before or during casting, are removed.


NOTE: sorry, code was mangled in shift to new TGD board.

NOTE 2: These damage changes were made in assumption that HP grows at a nearly-quadratic rate thanks to CON boosts from race, spells, and items, and that SoDs run rampant by high levels.

veekie

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Re: (3.5) Magic adaption to ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2008, 10:42:25 PM »
It's possible, but it depends on how powerful you want those low-level slots to be.  With the idea I've propsed, a 20th level caster would cast a Magic Missile for 5d4+10 (same as a 9th level wizard).  If we were instead to base the numbers I posted on caster level, then that same magic missile at 20th level would deal 5d4+30 (figuring +5 per die on top of the normal damage).

Now, this is 20th level we're talking about.  Obviously that's pretty piddly damage.  It's just a question of if you think that first level slots should scale that way or not.

I think this way, first level spells actually get used for blasting later on, instead of greasing the floor and waiting for pratfalls, all for it in fact.
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Re: (3.5) Magic adaption to ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2008, 03:58:13 AM »
I'd appreciate keeping this thread to simply discussing this point system.  Be welcome to further develop alternate damage systems in their appropriate threads, please.


TO reiterate, we are developing a point system here: but that raises the question of how many spells can be drawn rom to spend those points o.
As of now,  that pool of available spells readied is shown on the standard chart of "spells cast per day"... a 5th level wizard, for example, has 1 3rd level spell... thus a 5th level wizard may select one  3rd level spell to sped points on.
A high stat will allow for additional spells readied to spend points on.

Regarding the various casting classes:
[spoiler]

LVL   SL   4/9   SL   6/9   SL   9/9
1      0      0   1   3
2      0   1   2      4
3      0      3   2   6
4   1   1      4      9
5      2   2   5   3   12
6      3      6      16
7      4      8   4   20
8   2   5   3   10      24
9      6      12   5   28
10      7      14      32
11   3   8   4   16   6   36
12      9      18      40
13      10      20   7   44
14   4   11   5   22      48
15      12      24   8   52
16      13      26      56
17      14   6   28   9   60
18      15      33      64
19      16      38      68
20      17      43      72

[/spoiler]
SL = spell level available.
4/9 = rangers, paladins, hexbaldes, etc
6/9 = psychic warriors, bards, duskblades, etc
9/9 = wizards, clerics, druids, dread necros, beguilers, etc
Rangers and Paladins tyically start with "0" spells per day shown in the typcial chart: high stats do not reward additional spell points: they award additional spells available.  "0" is replaced with "1"... a 4th level ranger has spell points as shown above, and has one spell avaiable to spend those spell points on.

PrC's that advance spell casting levels will, of course, stick to the routine above.
PrC's that have their own spell list ad advancement will have to be appropriately scaled: but the above points should make that proces pretty intuitive.

For the sake of thoroughness, I will show the advancement of recovery rate by spell levels for each clasting tier:

4/9
[spoiler]

LVL   daily   5 min   at will
1         
2         
3         
4   1      
5         
6         
7         
8   2   1   
9         
10         
11   3   2   1
12         
13         
14   4,3   2   1
15         
16         
17         
18         
19         
20      
   
[/spoiler]

6/9
[spoiler]

LVL   daily   5 min   at will
1         
2   1      
3         
4         
5   2   1   
6         
7         
8   3   2   1
9         
10         
11   4,3   2   1
12         
13         
14   5,4   3,2   1
15         
16         
17   6,5   4,3   2,1
18         
19         
20         

[/spoiler]

9/9
[spoiler]

LVL   daily   5 min   at will
1   1      
2         
3   2   1   
4         
5   3   2   1
6         
7   4,3   2   1
8         
9   5,4   3,2   1
10         
11   6,5   4,3   2,1
12         
13   7,6,5   4,3   2,1
14         
15   8,7,6   5,4,3   2,1
16         
17   9,8,7   6,5,4   3,2,1
18         
19         
20         

[/spoiler]


The next step in the process would be to playtest this to see if it works, and how it doesn't.
I will open a thread for that purpose, and anyone is welcome to come along to give it a look see.

By all means, continue discussing, questioning, and criticizing... just stay on topic, please.


RobbyPants

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Re: (3.5) Magic adaption to ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2008, 11:26:53 AM »
Sorry.  I wasn't trying to hijack your thread.  I started by answering a question by bkdubs and got sidetracked from there.

Back on topic:
In your tables, are the numbers listed spell levels?  When you show the recovery rate for a 17th level 9/9 caster, the idea is spell levels 1-3 are at will, 4-6 are per encounter, and 7-9 are daily (or per 8 hours)?  Am I reading this right?
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Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]