Author Topic: (3.5) ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal  (Read 5780 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

bkdubs123

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2724
    • Email
Re: (3.5) ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2008, 05:17:57 AM »
I like variety, and as I agree that maneuver recovery enforces variety, I like maneuver recovery.

SiggyDevil

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1111
  • Magmar, the ultimate butthead
    • Feybook Project
Re: (3.5) ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2008, 06:26:13 AM »
Siggy:

Since the magic poit system spawned from this thread, I am having a hard time disagreeing in comparison. 

My only concern is that once you start hitting high level maneuvers, why would anyone bother with a lesser maneuver?
like in my above sample, Is there any reason why I'd choose ruy nightmare blade when I have strike of perfect clarity every round? 
I think the checks and balances of recovery mechankcs enforce variety.

solutions?


Variety. Also, one would simply swap out older (crappier) known maneuvers for a utility-grab-bag of stances and boosts that aren't found later, or things "you keep handy just in case".

I would seriously consider playing an unarmed Swordsage (thank you, LogicNinja...) with this option in place, but not with points or ToB as-is.  :-\

Maybe it's years of Final Fantasy Tactics, but somehow I have this incredible revulsion to warriors actually losing or paying anything to do their abilities.
Shit like Mind Break and Power Break are free, you pretty much pull it off when you want.
I see maneuvers very similar to that.

bkdubs123

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2724
    • Email
Re: (3.5) ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2008, 06:38:21 AM »
FF games aren't really the greatest arguments for variety. If the system's only encouragement for variety is, "You can use these less powerful maneuvers instead of these more powerful maneuvers whenever you want if you want variety," then we have an illusion of variety. In FFX, what do you do with Auron? For the first three-four rounds you use the breaks, in whatever combination you feel is most urgent "Power Break, Magic Break, Guard Break, etc." Then once the enemy is thoroughly debuffed you just attack with whatever his most damaging ability is over and over again until you absolutely HAVE TO use something else or you will die.

That's not variety. Since there isn't even a corollary to the breaks in ToB you skip those first few rounds and go straight to spamming Greater Insightful Strike or Strike of Perfect Clarity over and over again until you absolutely have to use something else or you will die.

It isn't as though you are paying or losing something with points or ToBs recovery system. You still have them, you just have to spend a minor action to recover them.

SiggyDevil

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1111
  • Magmar, the ultimate butthead
    • Feybook Project
Re: (3.5) ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2008, 06:30:08 PM »
I don't see how changing the frequency of maneuver use alters the viability of whichever maneuvers will be used.

Blame the maneuvers list, if anything, for being so limited or lopsided in favor of Diamond Mind.

If something similar to X-Breaks were in D&D, simply altering conditions would not be enough; those attacks would also need to deal damage (which they don't in FFT, I don't know about FF10.. didn't get that far) in order to be worth using in combat.

bkdubs123

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2724
    • Email
Re: (3.5) ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2008, 08:41:32 PM »
I don't see how changing the frequency of maneuver use alters the viability of whichever maneuvers will be used.

Meh, in my experience, players will use the lower level maneuvers and wait to recover until they really need their maneuvers back rather than, "Diamond Nightmare Blade! *recover* Diamond Nightmare Blade! *recover*," etc...

Quote
Blame the maneuvers list, if anything, for being so limited or lopsided in favor of Diamond Mind.

True. Diamond Mind is awesometastic. Though, I'd argue that Iron Heart and Shadow Hand are just as good with White Raven and Devoted Spirit coming up quickly behind.

Quote
If something similar to X-Breaks were in D&D, simply altering conditions would not be enough; those attacks would also need to deal damage (which they don't in FFT, I don't know about FF10.. didn't get that far) in order to be worth using in combat.

Ah, yeah, they deal damage, about as much as a normal attack.

fil kearney

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 210
    • KILLFEAR.COM
    • Email
Re: (3.5) ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2008, 01:24:51 AM »
Meh, in my experience, players will use the lower level maneuvers and wait to recover until they really need their maneuvers back rather than, "Diamond Nightmare Blade! *recover* Diamond Nightmare Blade! *recover*," etc...

I"ve got some limited low level play where my swordsage certainly wouldn't want to refresh even with adaptive style.. that action to take me out of the fight was horrible.  The warblade next to me refreshed rarely midfight... but that game lasted only a few encounters at 4t level.. so not te best example... but the feelings were there.   I didn't wat to waste any actions The party needed both o us, and standing around seemed to be the wrong action.

My OTHER (effectively now dead :( ) game has gone from 11th - 15th level, and I rarely saw any refreshing.  The actions were just too important to stand around. 
If there were no refresh mechanic, it would just be spamming best high damage maneuver to bst tactical maneuver and use all counters possible

Again, compared to casters, I don't actually think this i a problem.  the power level would narrow.  but if a wizard had infinite meteor warm, why fireball?  if infinite baleful polymorph, why ray of enervation?  The points force tactical decisions, which is a big attraction to many tpes of gamers. (I'm one of them)
Some folks may not like it, but it actually seems functional. 

Next to consider is difference between swordsage and crusader.  What is present seems to be a warblade bse 

swordsage would have more maneuvers available, but a slower recover mechanic doesn't seem appropriate.  droppong the number of points may fwork. 

Crusader has MORE maneuvers than warblade, but has little control over what they have available initially... and then over time they lose the opportunity to use those maneuvers until they are in queu again.
if I leave the random mechanic as is, it disrupts the point pool mechanic, and contradicts removing "known" vs "readied" maneuvers-- if they are ALL available, thenit is too random.  it'll take forever to renew maneuvers. 
The crusader could just use the same mechanics as warblade.. the other class features are balanced enough. 
I would certianly appreciate some input on this...     



veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: (3.5) ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2008, 06:49:08 AM »
I guess you could have the crusader automatically recover  XdY(or hell, just X) worth of points every round.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

fil kearney

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 210
    • KILLFEAR.COM
    • Email
Re: (3.5) ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2008, 11:05:54 AM »
holy crap that just makes sense!
  fu!

now I can get a progression for both and be ready to play test.

additional feedback appreciated!


ckafrica

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 24
Re: (3.5) ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2008, 05:24:17 PM »
Honestly, why not just let all the schools be picked by the warblade and be done with it. That gives him the flexibility most people want in a fighter and makes him... well the new fighter class that is worth playing

fil kearney

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 210
    • KILLFEAR.COM
    • Email
Re: (3.5) ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2008, 03:37:36 AM »
Siggy: agreed.  Lame.
CKafrica: nothing wrong with that, really...

but I've got some variety in mind here:

CL = class level
MP = Maneuver point pool
MK = Maneuvers known
ST = stances known
PR = point recovery

BASIC Warblade TOB
[spoiler]

CL MP MK ST PR
01 03   3  1 01
02 04   4  1 02
03 05   5  1 03
04 06   5  2 04
05 07   6  2 05
06 08   6  2 06
07 10   7  2 07
08 12   7  2 08
09 14   8  2 09
10 16   8  3 10
11 18   9  3 11
12 20   9  3 12
13 23   10  3 13
14 26   10  3 14
15 29   11  3 15
16 33   11  4 16
17 37   12  4 17
18 41   12  4 18
19 45   13  4 19
20 49   13  4 20

[/spoiler]
Warblade uses the basic mechanics detailed up to this point.

The Crusader and Swordsage will have different mechanics.....

BASIC Crusader TOB
[spoiler]

CL MP MK ST PR
01 03 5   01
02 04 5  2 01
03 05 6  2 02
04 06 6  2 03
05 07 7  2 04
06 08 7  2 05
07 10 8  2 05
08 12 8  3 06
09 14 9  3 07
10 16 9  3 08
11 18 10  3 09
12 20 10  3 09
13 23 11  3 10
14 26 11  4 11
15 29 12  4 12
16 33 12  4 13
17 37 13  4 13
18 41 13  4 14
19 45 14  4 15
20 49 14  4 16

[/spoiler]
Crusaders start combat with 0 points in their pool.  They gain a number of points at the beginning of their turn as indicated by their level.  If these points are not used, they will continue to accumulate until the maximum number in their pool is reached.
For example, a 1st level crusader accumulates one point at the beginning of each round.  If none of these points are used, on the third round, the crusader will have 3 points in his pool.  The next round, no points are gained, because the crusader has reached the maximum number of points allowed for his level.

Outside of combat, a Crusader may access his maneuvers by meditating for 5 minutes.  At the end of the meditation, the crusader may select ONE maneuver that he knows.  That maneuver must be used within one minute (10 rounds) or be lost.  Points in combat do not accumulate until this maneuver is either used, or abandoned.  The following round, points will begin to accumulate as normal.
For example, a 5th level crusader has White Raven Tactics available as a 3rd level maneuver.
His team plans to ambush a group of orcs, so the crusader begins to meditate.  After 5 minutes, he selects White Raven Tactics, and will be available to use for the next 10 rounds.  His team moves into position, and on the 3rd round of readying, his team attacks.  On his action, he uses White Raven Tactics to gain the advantage over the orcs!  Since the Crusader has used WRT, on round 4, he receives 4 points to use as normal... he can choose to use some of these points on either 2nd or 1st level maneuvers, or he may wait until next round, when he would acquire 4 more points.  The maximum in his pool is 7... so he will only gain 3 more.


BASIC Swordsage TOB
[spoiler]

CL MP MK ST PR
01 05 06 1 0
02 06 07  2 0
03 07 08  2 0
04 08 09  2 0
05 09 10  3 0
06 11 11  3 0
07 13 12  3 0
08 15 13  3 0
09 17 14  4 0
10 19 15  4 0
11 22 16  4 0
12 25 17  4 0
13 28 18  4 0
14 31 19  5 0
15 34 20  5 0
16 38 21  5 0
17 42 22  5 0
18 46 23  5 0
19 50 24  5 0
20 54 25  6 0

[/spoiler]
Swordsage has NO standard recovery mechanic: he gains adaptive syle as a free feat to use, and recovers his full point pool with a full round action.

 
I continue to have issues with tables.  :rolleyes


« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 03:45:46 AM by fil kearney »

fil kearney

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 210
    • KILLFEAR.COM
    • Email
Re: (3.5) ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2008, 08:31:24 PM »

fil kearney

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 210
    • KILLFEAR.COM
    • Email
Re: (3.5) ToB "Maneuver Points" proposal
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2008, 12:40:50 AM »
playtesting has been moved to DDOG for various reasons..
http://www.dndonlinegames.com/showthread.php?p=2977513#post2977513