Author Topic: Rapture, Magic Pants, Missing Spoons, and Anecdotal Evidence  (Read 2665 times)

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Halloween

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Rapture, Magic Pants, Missing Spoons, and Anecdotal Evidence
« on: October 24, 2008, 02:30:59 AM »
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 08:34:18 PM by Halloween »

SiggyDevil

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Re: Rapture, Magic Pants, Missing Spoons, and Anecdotal Evidence
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2008, 06:34:46 PM »
That's an interesting comparison, between playing as by game design or loading upon death.

I've hit a similar conundrum concerning Armored Core: Last Raven for a few weeks.
It was returned a week ago because of the save system, among other things (such as even slower menu loading and scrolling, making for an overall time-waster when not in combat).


The game is about giant robots you pilot customize with parts you buy from doing missions with that very same Frankenstein's mecha. The mission setup is part anime-like battlefields full of other mechs, giant 'bosses', aliens, or shooting regular machines.
All of the series is like this, except for a few editions that do nothing but arena battles and one that does racing.

AC: LR is the final of the 7-or-so Playstation series stretching from Armored Core: Project Phantasma up to this (before ditching PS2 in favor of AC4 for PS3 and XBOX360), so one might think there is a bit of quality testing and/or improvements to graphics and interface, right?

I returned the game because you lose when you die. Not lose cash, not go back to a save point, not gain "dishonor" or move on to another mission, YOU LOSE.
So, you reload every time.
One might figure that the designers KNOW a player will want to continue playing, so why not LET the player pick up where they left off?

I mean, fucking hell, same problem right?
I've encountered this issue with many Japanese games, but a handful of American ones are like this too.
Seeing the GAME OVER screen should be discouragement enough; I've seen it plenty in the days of the first Nintendo and SEGA Genesis. I don't like to see it in our era of save feature and checkpoints.

Soul Reaver: Legacy of Kain got it right. You die, you go back to the elder god.
That's it. Not game over... no loss of anything... you just get set back.

Josh

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Re: Rapture, Magic Pants, Missing Spoons, and Anecdotal Evidence
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2008, 01:25:42 AM »
Another example: Rainbow 6

When I played the game I played it as an intricate hostage rescue simulator.  You program all the moves in advance using the kind of info that a real hostage rescue team(HRT) would have. 

A sample mission would be a house with guards on the roof and perimeter and 3 sets of targets.  You have a team of 6, that makes 2 groups.  So you sneak onto the grounds.  Snipers set up while 2 others sneak up behind the guards on the ground.  The two guards on the roof need to be shot simultaneously and that allows the 2 on the ground to step out and shoot the guards on the ground (make sure you are not visible from any windows).  Then the two teams infiltrate the house simultaneously.  You have to burst into the kitchen and shoot 2 terrorists before they can touch a gun or radio.  Then together the two teams breach and enter each of the hostage sites.  Oh yeah, no save, no pause, one bullet kills you.  Each mission took 4 hours and was completely awesome. 

Then I looked at the hint book.  If you play the game like a first person shooter you can just run around with one guy and kill everyone.  That mission takes 15 minutes.     
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Talen Lee

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Re: Rapture, Magic Pants, Missing Spoons, and Anecdotal Evidence
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2008, 09:29:42 PM »
I know that might piss you off, but consider that the game was able to accommodate both modes. Did you have 15 minutes of fun stretched into 4 hours, or 4 hours of fun in 4 hours?

Talen Lee

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Re: Rapture, Magic Pants, Missing Spoons, and Anecdotal Evidence
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2008, 09:30:41 PM »
Because I played it six years ago when it was called System Shock 2 and peed my pants at the sight of spiders for a week thereafter.

Josh

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Re: Rapture, Magic Pants, Missing Spoons, and Anecdotal Evidence
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2008, 12:20:33 AM »
I know that might piss you off, but consider that the game was able to accommodate both modes. Did you have 15 minutes of fun stretched into 4 hours, or 4 hours of fun in 4 hours?

I had 4 hours of complete awesomeness. 

As a FPS the game is completely lame.   
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PhoenixInferno

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Re: Rapture, Magic Pants, Missing Spoons, and Anecdotal Evidence
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2008, 12:29:38 AM »
I never played Rainbow 6, but I thought that was how it was supposed to be played, Josh.

Josh

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Re: Rapture, Magic Pants, Missing Spoons, and Anecdotal Evidence
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2008, 12:42:17 AM »
I never played Rainbow 6, but I thought that was how it was supposed to be played, Josh.

All but the first one, they turned it into an fps after that.

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Talen Lee

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Re: Rapture, Magic Pants, Missing Spoons, and Anecdotal Evidence
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2008, 01:48:16 AM »
Wait, they made a second Rainbow 6?

Was that Rainbow 12?

TheChrisWaits

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Re: Rapture, Magic Pants, Missing Spoons, and Anecdotal Evidence
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2008, 02:16:30 AM »
There are actually 9 of them. And thankfully, they're not numbered (for the most part).

Talen Lee

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Re: Rapture, Magic Pants, Missing Spoons, and Anecdotal Evidence
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2008, 02:32:25 AM »
Otherwise you'd have to manage some kind of kooky numbering scheme. If you just went Rainbow 6, 7, 8, you'd have people looking for 1-5. So you could go 6, 12, 18, 24, 30, 36, ... and stop at 42. Zomg.

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Re: Rapture, Magic Pants, Missing Spoons, and Anecdotal Evidence
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2008, 07:50:11 PM »
Halloween, you are my hero. No one has ever said that as eloquently as you have.

I remember the first time I played command and conquer. I spent 6 hours building up an army, upgrading everything, buying 15 of every unit. I completely annihilated my opponent. Then I decided to look at strategy guides to see the best order of buying things. turns out, the best strategy is to build twenty tanks in two minutes and charge the enemy at the very beginning.
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Re: Rapture, Magic Pants, Missing Spoons, and Anecdotal Evidence
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2008, 11:12:08 PM »
I guess what really matters is whether you had fun with it. That's what games are for, after all.

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Re: Rapture, Magic Pants, Missing Spoons, and Anecdotal Evidence
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2008, 11:46:56 PM »
Halloween, you are my hero. No one has ever said that as eloquently as you have.

I remember the first time I played command and conquer. I spent 6 hours building up an army, upgrading everything, buying 15 of every unit. I completely annihilated my opponent. Then I decided to look at strategy guides to see the best order of buying things. turns out, the best strategy is to build twenty tanks in two minutes and charge the enemy at the very beginning.

And when you find out you can never win against human opponents because they all rush you within the first few minutes and your base is this smouldering crater. :(
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MaskedBrute

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Re: Rapture, Magic Pants, Missing Spoons, and Anecdotal Evidence
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2008, 02:55:21 AM »
The problem with using this type of argument is that your personal experience is entirely unrelated to the experiences of others. The game you played was not the game that other people play.

Here's a question: How do you know that the bolded is the case?

Take, for example, your Bioshock story. You say that you got a great deal of fun playing in a particular style that created a unique experience and was fun for you, and that realizing it was a unique experience means you can't apply it to an overall impression of the game as a whole. But not only did the game allow and in some ways support your play style, to the point you apparently forgot that it was so different it would create a totally unique experience, but enough people who didn't play the game in that way (played it closer to the expected method by your reckoning) got a great deal of enjoyment from it... enough, at least, that it's generally considered a critical and financial success.

If someone hands me an tool, tells me that it will cut down trees with a swiftness, and I then manage to cut down a great many trees with a swiftness you can imagine that I will be a bit leery of another person later coming up and telling me that the tool I used couldn't possibly be efficient enough to cut down trees with a swiftness and that my experience must be a fluke or edge case. Especially when I'm far from the only person using that tool and getting that result.

Or, for another approach: If someone tells me that, after examining it, my car can't possibly start because it's missing parts necessary for road travel and engine activation... well having driven it there, and then driving it away, I will unavoidably be led to doubt the strengths of their position no matter how well-developed or otherwise convincing it may seem to be.

Does my personal experience have a greater weight than someone else's by default? Not at all. But is it immaterial by default? Hardly.

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Despite this, I maintain that we should tell our stories. They are subjective, they represent only a single subjective perspective on the game in question, and they are not real arguments, but they should still be told. If you really did play a game for nine years, that could be a valuable thing for other people to know, especially if you go on to describe how you made that game work for all that time.

Totally agreed.

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Anecdotes can be valuable as examples, but cannot be used as evidence to judge objective value or worth. The very thing that makes them interesting read, removes any weight that they might have. They are as varied as the people who experianced them.

It depends on the standards you use to judge worth. My primary metric of a product's worth is how much entertainment it gives me balanced against the time and effort put into it, so I quite often find that examining a person's experience with a product is more useful to me than any other information.

Basically I can entirely understand your position, but I think it needs to be recognized that not everyone sees the same qualities as important.
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