Author Topic: What is Douchebaggery?  (Read 27416 times)

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Elennsar

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #80 on: October 30, 2008, 03:37:26 AM »
That still doesn't address the idea that getting just as much from playing Quake as doing your job is going to encourage playing a lot of Quake.

Not that there's anything wrong with Quake. But it is kind of motivating the wrong behavior to say "Good job!" right there.

Not arguing with your point, because I have mixed feelings on that saying, just in regards to that kind of scenario.
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Josh

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #81 on: October 30, 2008, 04:14:06 AM »
The problem.

There is also option 0b)

By definition, no.  If you have proof of the model being incorrect, by all means share.  But if the model is correct then it needs nothing else, again by definition.
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Elennsar

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #82 on: October 30, 2008, 04:23:42 AM »
Okay.

If I make a statement (let's say on the benefits/drawbacks of bell curve results by dice), and assuming you are being critical here, you can either say:

"Your idea is pidiotic."/"You overlooked something."
Or
"You're a pidiot."

If you say the second, I have no idea what you're refering to.

What does the model have to do with it?
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veekie

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #83 on: October 30, 2008, 07:01:12 AM »
Until there is a way to force forums members to listen to the podcasts, anyone is welcome to join the forums.

I'm pretty sure it can't be that hard to work a script to play snippets of the podcast whenever someone loads a page...though that would be pretty ebil.
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Tshern

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #84 on: October 30, 2008, 10:07:29 AM »
Even I don't listen all the podcasts, I just don't have the time...

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Omen of Peace

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #85 on: October 30, 2008, 10:43:41 AM »
He doesn't need to explain it. But why is it a good idea to point it out (in the context of a discussion over the Internet) ?

Since the majority of people who have posted here recently think it's not douchebaggery I'll try to follow that guideline, but I still don't see what it brings to a thread.

To use AC's example:
Quote
A: You're an idiot.
B: What? Why? What'd I do?
A: You did X.

Why not do
"A: You did X which was idiotic."
(you go from attacking a person to attacking one thing they did and provide an explanation)

or even
"A: You did X."
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Blade2718

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #86 on: October 30, 2008, 12:25:48 PM »
Just like in conflict resolution, never talk about a person, talk about the person's statements or actions.

Josh

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #87 on: October 30, 2008, 12:52:25 PM »
So then you all agree that a person who is being idiotic has no amount of responsibility?  Further all responsibility rests with the claimant to appease and sooth the ego of the idiot. 

Is that what you are all claiming?
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Elennsar

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #88 on: October 30, 2008, 12:56:32 PM »
Um...no? What gives you that idea?

As Blade said, "Talk about the person's statements or actions." If I did something stupid, point out that trying to grab a candle flame (or whatever) was stupid. Calling me an idiot (or a pidiot, or whatever) is not helpful.

Its just insulting. And insulting without assisting is douche behavior.
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EjoThims

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #89 on: October 30, 2008, 01:05:07 PM »
Its just insulting.

Wrong.

It's insulting and helpful as long as you have the drive to improve your ideas. And if you don't, you really shouldn't be putting them out for discussion.

Sure, just being helpful is nicer, but that doesn't mean anyone who insults you is also automagically not being helpful.

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #90 on: October 30, 2008, 01:05:59 PM »
(replying to Josh)
Of course not.  :shrug

Since everybody has slightly different ways of approaching communication, let's consider it under the efficiency angle. Saying "you're an idiot" contributes nothing to the thread at hand, can potentially annoy the target and helps you feel superior - the only positive point.
If you say it and you're prepared to back it by pointing out how you think the poster was an idiot... start with the explanation - you save everyone some time. If you say it and you are not prepared to back it up you're a douchebag.
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Elennsar

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #91 on: October 30, 2008, 01:09:02 PM »
Anyone who says "your ideas suck." "you suck." "you're an idiot." "All your ideas are stupid." and treats that as enough is being a douche.

For instance, to use my comments on what to do to boost the Dwarven Defender, if someone just said "This sucks." and left it at that, I'd have no idea what sucked about it, or what I did that made it suck.

Helpful? Not in the least. Now, if you said that "removing the the +2 to Strength for Defensive Stance makes an already weak ability even weaker.", that'd be useful.
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EjoThims

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #92 on: October 30, 2008, 01:19:52 PM »
The point (when it has one and isn't just being used for a personal attack) is that it's not efficient to use up time on someone who has done something that is idiotic unless that someone is themselves willing to critically think about their actions/ideas.

Because if they're not willing to do that, then they're not going to listen to any advice, no matter how much time is used up going over the details of why they are an idiot.

Omen of Peace

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #93 on: October 30, 2008, 01:25:01 PM »
Then they won't listen to you telling them they're an idiot either, so you can spare the calling out too.

And in turn, examining the consequences of what you said: it means that when you just say to someone "you're an idiot" you already assume they won't listen to your criticism since otherwise you would have taken the time to explain it.
edit: I think we're expected to do the opposite here, assume that people are smart/open until proven otherwise.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 01:27:04 PM by Omen of Peace »
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Elennsar

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #94 on: October 30, 2008, 01:26:19 PM »
Assumptions make an ass of you and me, or something that was witty about ten thousand years ago and has become dust dull since.
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EjoThims

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #95 on: October 30, 2008, 01:35:24 PM »
Then they won't listen to you telling them they're an idiot either, so you can spare the calling out too.

Obviously, I think the idea/statement/action is bad enough that I'm willing to waste the time calling it idiotic.

And in turn, examining the consequences of what you said: it means that when you just say to someone "you're an idiot" you already assume they won't listen to your criticism since otherwise you would have taken the time to explain it.

Wrong again.

It means I don't know whether or not they'll listen (otherwise I would have explained already if I knew they would). So I simply state my observation and move on until I've seen whether or not they will listen.

Elennsar

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #96 on: October 30, 2008, 01:37:34 PM »
If you don't know whether or not someone is going to listen, and the purpose of this site is for people to exchange and discuss ideas, and douchebaggery is contrary to that goal...

Then "insult the person whenever you think they have an idea that might be a bad idea because they might be too ____ to listen." is...definately not good.
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EjoThims

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #97 on: October 30, 2008, 01:50:01 PM »
"...they might be too ____ to listen." is...definately not good.

I agree.

It's terrible when people put ideas or comments out there in a public forum and can't be bothered to back them up or analyze their own ideas critically; it's a waste of all our time.

Elennsar

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #98 on: October 30, 2008, 01:51:30 PM »
Insulting someone is not a good way to inspire analysis or back up. Its a good way to inspire defensiveness and/or a sense that this community is an insular pack of group think snobs.

I'd say elitists, but that would imply quality.
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EjoThims

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #99 on: October 30, 2008, 02:09:33 PM »
Insulting someone is not a good way to inspire analysis or back up. Its a good way to inspire defensiveness and/or a sense that this community is an insular pack of group think snobs.

I'd say elitists, but that would imply quality.

If your position, actions, or ideas are attack, of course you will be defensive, but you should also be looking at them critically and support them against the attack. Otherwise you're just sniping back, which is a sign of weakness, a sign that you attacker was correct.

And no, attacking any different ideas is a group think mob. Attacking poor ideas is, at worst, a harshly truthful community that likes quality discussion. At best a well rounded community that likes quality discussion but has some rude people in it's ranks. Attacking no ideas, ever, is a weak, feel-good wasteland with no quality discussion.

Some ideas/comments/thoughts/actions are so bad that the best way to describe them is idiotic. This is not always a personal attack, even if it's an attack on those ideas/comments/thoughts/actions.

Just because someone is rude doesn't mean they're wrong nor that there advice or observation is faulty.

And just because they are rude does not make them a douche.

Look at Josh. He's exceedingly rude and harsh in almost every thread I've ever seen him post in. But I can't recall reading a single thing from him that I would qualify as actual douche behavior. Uber, AJ, Sunic, you, and others have, IMO, crossed that line on more than one occasion in recent weeks.