Author Topic: What is Douchebaggery?  (Read 27415 times)

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InnaBinder

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2008, 03:44:03 PM »
With that in mind, I'm suggesting two items of potential Douchebaggery, the first of which is my own post.  I'll preface with the statement that I didn't intend to be a douche in posting what I did, and can make no legitimate claims about the intent of the response, other than what was posted.  The format got a little clunky from copying and pasting; I apologize.

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Simply an observation here, there's one person who managed to make Uber's 'Elite' list AND his 'automatically ignore for game knowledge' list:

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Ubernoob: Who do you consider to be the elite of this board?
Sunic, yourself (on some issues), AC (on some issues), PI (on many issues), Dman, Bowen (on some issues), X-Codes (on some issues), SDK, Omen, Midnight, Guyr, Phaedrus, Sinister, Callix, Squirrelloid, SiggyDevil, DM, Runestar, Tsuyo, Caelic (more so than almost anyone on this list), carnivore (on some issues), Alterform (on some issues), pfooti (on a fair number of issues), veekie (on a fair number of issues), Eldariel, Surreal, TreantMonk

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JaronK, I've lost enough respect for you as a system head that I've actually put you in my idiot list.  This is the list of people that I am assumed to automatically skip over any game knowledge posts on:
Aelryinth
AndyJames
Elennsar
JaronK
Carnivore
Spot the expert whose automatically ignored.   
My words are underlined in the interest of making it a bit more legible.

The response:
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Quote from: InnaBinder on October 22, 2008, 01:38:20 PM
Spot the expert whose automatically ignored.   
Sorry, couldn't hear you over the cock in your mouth.
Again, my words are underlined to differentiate 'voice'.
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Elennsar

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2008, 02:29:32 AM »
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These bits in Meg's original post rang as closest to a definition for the boards in my ear:

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What douchebaggery means to me is someone who is an ass and doesn't contribute.  Their sense of self worth is overinflated. 
....Douchebaggery is damaging to the community, not just an individual.

My problem with that, while I generally agree...damaging an individual is damaging a (small, yes) part of the community.

Directly and indirectly. For instance, take someone attacking me (I can't speak for how others spread the word of sites they find interesting, so I'm using my responses as a sign of what one individual in this community does).

You attack me. You make it highly unpleasant for me to post on something because whether or not I have anything useful to say you act like a dick and/or treat my idea as shit...not just say "this isn't all that good an idea" and show how, but treat it as if having such an idea to begin with is awful.

When people do that, not only does it make me contribute less (which is not good in an environment where supposedly sharing ideas is to be fostered), it makes me much less likely to mention this site either in general (hey you might want to check this out since you're into D&D/GURPS/Gaming/whatever) or for specific points (because it means that only things that interest those interested in being bullies survive without being mercilessly mocked into oblivion) that someone who may or may not want to join the site may still want to see.

So I'd say that being a douchebag, as distinct from simply arrogant or even offensive, is when you are actively hindering the purpose and pleasures of this site by your actions. Instead of encouraging people to share ideas (and simply not commenting on ones that hold no appeal), you try to drive off people.

Not because they're being unpleasant, but because you don't like/respect them.

"Not appealing" does not and should not mean "I desire to have them remvoed". Otherwise, we'd have a site where only people who play the kind of game/s that Meg and the others play posting and having a private club, rather than an open discussison of ideas.
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JaronK

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2008, 06:21:28 AM »
Okay, I have to say it.

Douchebaggery, right now, is Elennsar's sig.  I'm sorry, but that's serious douchebaggery right there.

JaronK

Elennsar

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2008, 06:49:24 AM »
If and when you can demonstrate that the fu system, in practice, never works like that or that when it does, it is corrected as soon as humanly possible, I will drop it.

Until then, I stand firmly by the conviction that giving someone negative fu is a f-u with no connection whatsoever to rating gameology or anything else that might possibly have a benefit to the site to have, regardless of the intentions of Meg and the others who are responsible for it existing on BG.

If this is on my comment about Kuro, I can translate that a clearer form and/or (if he doesn't mind) present the parts of a PM discussion (asking what I meant) I have saved.

Either way, if you don't like it, prove it false and I'll remove it. Don't prove it false and it will stay until forcibly changed by someone who isn't me.

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InnaBinder

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2008, 01:34:16 PM »
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Board examples of Douchbaggery
Post some specific exmaples you think are douchey.  Remember though that everyone is up for grabs here and don't take anything personally.  This is just feedback with the intention to learn.  99% of the time if someone posts something you did as douchey, you saw it differently and didn't know.  That's ok, we hadn't defined it yet.  We are now.  So don't take offense to someone calling something you did douchey- let's just get a clearer picture so either you don't do it again or the person sees that it wasn't.
That is all.
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JaronK

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2008, 05:48:04 PM »
It's this part:

"If you guessed "There is none.", you're forgetting Kuroimaken, but other than that, are right on the money."

You're putting a personal attack, which is totally out of context and in relation to something you got out of PMs, into every post you make.

This does not advance discussion in any way.  It's picking a fight.  It brings the board down as a whole.

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Elennsar

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2008, 10:44:47 PM »
Ironically, it isn't a personal attack. The point is, other than to Kuro (whose own sig says "I accept payment in negative fu"), giving someone negative fu is used as a f-u.

It may be badly worded, but it is neither out of context or from PMs or insulting to anyone in particular.

The board is down as a whole because people do give negative fu as a f-u and act like that's perfectly okay despite the fact that it isn't mean as such.
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JaronK

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2008, 12:55:12 AM »
Ah.  As it was written, it just looked like a cheap shot at Kuro.

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2008, 01:03:57 AM »
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Douchebaggery:
   
1)The philosophy held by douchebags, holding that no one other than themselves (or perhaps their close associates) matters in the least bit, and thus that other human beings can and should be treated like complete excrement for little or no reason (and often for selfish reasons).

Allow me to make one subtle correction

Douchebaggery:
   
1)The philosophy held by Player Characters, holding that no one other than themselves (or perhaps their close associates) matters in the least bit, and thus that other human beings can and should be treated like complete excrement for little or no reason (and often for selfish reasons).

 :)
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Elennsar

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2008, 01:08:57 AM »
 :lol. Kuro PMed me not long after I set it to ask if he should take that as a compliment or an insult.

As stated, it was an observation.

I'll reword it if more than just you two have been confused, however.

Anyway...and full agreement with the PC comment.

Douchebaggery: Me and mine are all that matters. Anything else is so irrelevant that I don't even need a justification to be a dick/tyrant/troll/whatever.

Insisting that you're right and others are wrong is not necessarily douchebaggery. Insisting that you being "right" (assuming for the moment that's at all valid, or as valid as any one else asserting it, at least) means those who oppose you have no rights...that's where we get into douchebaggery.

A paladin can kill you for being a heretic without being a douchbag. Killing you because you don't think he looks sexy in a kilt is douchebaggery.

In terms of the site, thusly...a douchebag is anyone attempting to make the site unpleasant for others who aren't "them".

Being offensive in and of itself is not douchebaggery. Calling someone names after they ask you to stop is douchebaggery.

We all basically agree here, or am I overlooking something?
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Meg

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2008, 09:51:25 PM »
I really like this:

"a douchebag is anyone attempting to make the site unpleasant for others who aren't "them"."

That's a good definition.  The main point I want to clarify though is that being a dick or ass isn't douchey.  Someone may be a jerk but their intention is that they are actually teaching their verbal sparing partner. 

Though I'm still not quite sure how to nail down the difference.
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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2008, 10:23:33 PM »
I really like this:

"a douchebag is anyone attempting to make the site unpleasant for others who aren't "them"."

That's a good definition.  The main point I want to clarify though is that being a dick or ass isn't douchey.  Someone may be a jerk but their intention is that they are actually teaching their verbal sparing partner. 

Though I'm still not quite sure how to nail down the difference.

How to get others to realize the difference once you have is another sticking point.  People do sometimes have a tendency to just shut down once someone has been insulting regardless of whether that person was right or was trying to show them something.  All they remember was "that guy is an asshole, and I no longer need to treat him as a human being since he didn't show me the same courtesy."  Or even worse just leaves and advises people not to drop by because it's a nest of vipers.

Elennsar

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2008, 12:24:17 AM »
Example of being offensive:
"No. That's not how it works. *patronizing comment*."

Example of being a douchebag: "You're an idiot."

That's as good as I can come up with. An abrasive comment intended to help someone is not douchbaggery. But an abrasive comment without anything productive in it is just douchebaggery.

It is hard to tell at times. That's why we need mods (and other users) to keep people from walking the line between the two. Not by force...but if you can say something politely and say something rudely, there's almost never a need for the ruder form.
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Josh

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2008, 04:13:56 AM »

Example of being a douchebag: "You're an idiot."

I disagree. 

The key question is, are you being an idiot? 

If you are acting like an idiot and someone calls you on it that makes them astute. 
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Elennsar

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2008, 04:17:29 AM »
Put it this way.

Me: "You're an idiot."
You: "What did I do?"
Me: "Be an idiot."
You: "Huh?"
Me: "Shut up, you idiot."

That's what I meant when I had "You're an idiot." as a douchebaggery quote.

There are plenty of perfectly effective ways to point out that someone is sniffing their own intestines and that they might want to look at something like Y instead of X, but "You're an idiot." without such is just flaming. And flaming for flaming's own sake is definately douchebaggery.
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Josh

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2008, 05:40:33 AM »
Put it this way.

Me: "You're an idiot."
You: "What did I do?"
Me: "Be an idiot."
You: "Huh?"
Me: "Shut up, you idiot."

That's what I meant when I had "You're an idiot." as a douchebaggery quote.

There are plenty of perfectly effective ways to point out that someone is sniffing their own intestines and that they might want to look at something like Y instead of X, but "You're an idiot." without such is just flaming. And flaming for flaming's own sake is definately douchebaggery.
OK

Calling someone who is an idiot and idiot, still not douchey. 

Like if I called you an idiot now it would be true.  Rather than see my point you are stuck on your own.

Try to understand things. 

...

Now That was a bit callous.  And on other message boards it would be forbidden.  And on other message boards you would not be able to learn anything.  (Not that you will certainly learn anything here, there just is actually a potential)

...

Also key here is you are/were being an idiot.  Everyone is an idiot on occasion.  On Monday night I was playing a game called "Dog" and just through complete dumbassedness screwed up two moves in a row, where my team could have won the game.  Twice in a row, no good reason.  I could make excuses or I could learn something and realized I fucked up.
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Elennsar

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2008, 05:47:30 AM »
The point is not whether or not someone used the word "idiot". The point is, saying "You idiot." without explaining/mentioning/whatever the idiocy was is douchebaggery.

Its not a "hey. What the fuck were you thinking? That was an easy catch!" kind of "You're an idiot." that I'm refering to. Its calling someone an idiot without explaining where it came from.

Since you're completely ignoring my point, I kind of feel obligated to point it out until you stop ignoring it.
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Josh

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2008, 12:56:11 PM »
The point is not whether or not someone used the word "idiot". The point is, saying "You idiot." without explaining/mentioning/whatever the idiocy was is douchebaggery.

Its not a "hey. What the fuck were you thinking? That was an easy catch!" kind of "You're an idiot." that I'm refering to. Its calling someone an idiot without explaining where it came from.

Since you're completely ignoring my point, I kind of feel obligated to point it out until you stop ignoring it.
I am negating it.  That would be the exact opposite of ignoring it.

In other words, I was indicating how your point was wrong.
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Elennsar

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2008, 12:58:17 PM »
In other words, you are ignoring it.

As stated, saying "You blew that, you idiot!" is one thing, and fine, and we agree. Simply insulting someone is not doing anything but insulting someone.

So, how is calling someone an idiot without giving any reason why not douchebaggery?
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EjoThims

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2008, 06:29:05 PM »
So, how is calling someone an idiot without giving any reason why not douchebaggery?

Because there's a difference between being a douche and stating an observation.

If you're being an idiot, it's just an observation to state it. Calling you out on it may be insulting, but it's not being a douche.

Sure, someone who is nice will ALSO point out WHY you are being an idiot, but unless you're arrogant (and probably just being a douche yourself, especially if you're repeating your own beliefs without any personal analysis), any time anyone with a decent reputation calls you an idiot, you should review your stuff and try to figure out why.

If you can't, then you can be all like "Nu-uh, because..." or "Prove it, bitch, because..." Until then, just questioning and not trying to improve really only solidifies your place as an idiot.

Now, once you honestly review, question, and provide points as to why you believe "You're an idiot" is just a dismissive insult instead of a valid observation, then mindless repetition of the insult instead of explanations becomes douchebag behavior.