Author Topic: What is Douchebaggery?  (Read 27461 times)

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Cam_Banks

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #140 on: November 02, 2008, 11:00:20 PM »
I think the "making it unpleasant to be here" tag is valid. I would personally get a lot more from discussions on this and other message boards if the people contributing to the discussions weren't dicks about it.
Here is the problem with this definition.  It is subjective from both sides.  If the poster has no intent, how are we supposed to figure that out?  If the interpretation lies in the reader they can simply claim what they like, again no way to screen.  As for moderator interpretation, that would be too much work and too subjective as well.

So while it may be a point of consideration it makes a poor metric.

One could argue that the number of objective elements involved in any discussion is easily dwarfed by and is essentially held captive by the number of subjective elements. We are going to have to deal with subjective, emotional, and occasionally irrational points of view. This is where the intelligent people often start to lose their way in a discussion, because you can't break it down into simple and discrete items of objective merit. Hence the descent into douchebaggery.

A possible (and ideal) scenario:

A: "Blah blah."
B: "I find that offensive! Take that back, you suck!"
A: "What? Why?"
B: "Because of X!"
A: "Ah! Well, I'm sorry you were offended."
B: "Fair enough."

As opposed to:

A: "Blah blah."
B: "I find that offensive! Take that back, you suck!"
A: "No, you suck!"
B: "You suck more!"
A: "Here are several reasons why you suck that I've just pulled out of my emotional response pool!"
B: "Here's some from mine!"
*asplode*

In general, if somebody finds something I have said offensive or dickish, I'm quick to say that I am sorry they took it as offensive. I may even be sorry that I said it, assuming I had some warning ahead of time that X was going to be offensive. However, if I had no idea, and suddenly X is revealed as offensive, all I can really do is express my sorrow that it was taken badly. But I won't be sorry I said it. Make sense?

I believe as adults we own our reaction to the things others say. We also own the things we say. Thus, it's up to us to negotiate the outcome of a dispute, where the most sensible path is to express one's offense, have the offending party acknowledge that it was taken as an offense, and then move on, thus enlightened.

Cheers,
Cam
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Elennsar

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #141 on: November 03, 2008, 01:42:31 AM »
I think I agree with Cam here. Let me see if I follow what we should aim for (if not expect to achieve quite this nicely).

Me: Blah blah Germany is better than France blah blah blah blah.
Cam: What?! Take that back!
Me: What?
Cam: You said Germany was better than France. That offended me.
Me: Didn't mean to offend you, my bad.
Cam: Appology accepted.

Doesn't mean that I am (or should be) sorry that I think Germany is better, but I am sorry that I caused offense.

Its not hard to tell when someone offended someone else. It is not hard to tell when someone doesn't care if they caused offense or not.

So, I'd say that can be kept in mind very easily, despite the fact it is not possible to come up with a perfect definition.

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Josh

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #142 on: November 03, 2008, 02:29:21 AM »
Your point is well taken. To clarify, there have been a few high profile cases of the sort of thing I was trying to describe on this board, and in those cases it was fairly clear that it was the same issue brought up again and again, and not simply a disagreement on two separate issues (i.e. direct quoting from the original thread, etc.).

Re-arguing is possibly the issue here then.  It might be worth making some sort of point as to bringing up the same argument over and over.

Quote
True, though I suppose "pointless" may fall under that subjective issue that you brought up. I can recall at least one instance where the perpetrators of the disruption knew they were being disruptive, but believed the disruption to be very pointed, while others disagreed. Just thinking out loud on this one...
A disruption is still a disruption in this case. 

Quote
Personally I think the likelihood of "intelligent, insightful responses" being made, especially to the disliked person/party, goes down the longer some of these disputes go on, but the issue is not really the argument itself, but where it plays out.
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Josh

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #143 on: November 03, 2008, 03:12:43 AM »
I think I agree with Cam here. Let me see if I follow what we should aim for (if not expect to achieve quite this nicely).

Me: Blah blah Germany is better than France blah blah blah blah.
Cam: What?! Take that back!
Me: What?
Cam: You said Germany was better than France. That offended me.
Me: Didn't mean to offend you, my bad.
Cam: Appology accepted.

Doesn't mean that I am (or should be) sorry that I think Germany is better, but I am sorry that I caused offense.

Its not hard to tell when someone offended someone else. It is not hard to tell when someone doesn't care if they caused offense or not.

So, I'd say that can be kept in mind very easily, despite the fact it is not possible to come up with a perfect definition.



While interesting I don't know that this line of thought leads to a definition of douchebaggery.  Again it is possibly good advice just a topic for elsewhere.
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Elennsar

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #144 on: November 03, 2008, 03:17:35 AM »
Well, if the site's goal is a free and frank exchange of ideas, then someone who is making the site unpleasant for those who don't share their ideas is counter to the goal of the site.

What is so hard about making that the definition?
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AfterCrescent

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #145 on: November 03, 2008, 03:19:57 AM »
It's too subjective. What if I post an idea and claim the first person to say it is a bad idea (regardless of reasoning) is a douchebag because they are making the site unpleasant for me. Now all of a sudden we have some other forums that are so controlled that people leave them in search of othe forums, like what we have here currently at BG.
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Elennsar

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #146 on: November 03, 2008, 03:25:43 AM »
And the alternative is that people are allowed to make the site unbearably unpleasant to the point that people leave for forums where being hostile and offensive is discouraged and actively attempt to discourage new people from coming here?

I hope not.
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AfterCrescent

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #147 on: November 03, 2008, 03:29:17 AM »
Um... No. It's not black and white. That's what this whole open discussion is for. It's to find that gray middle ground.
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Elennsar

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #148 on: November 03, 2008, 03:38:13 AM »
Well, so far, actually discouraging people from being offensive bastards is out, which doesn't leave a whole lot the other side of "act as you see fit".
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Josh

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #149 on: November 03, 2008, 04:02:00 AM »
Well, so far, actually discouraging people from being offensive bastards is out, which doesn't leave a whole lot the other side of "act as you see fit".

OK, how about an example?

Elennsar, your behavior in this thread is making it unpleasant for me.  So by your definition you are a douchebag. 

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Elennsar

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #150 on: November 03, 2008, 04:05:01 AM »
How about you stop attacking every single post I have made in this thread?

No, seriously. If you're trying to play Devil's advocate, it's being taken to levels that are grating.

Intentionally? Maybe not.
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Josh

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #151 on: November 03, 2008, 04:17:50 AM »
How about you stop attacking every single post I have made in this thread?

No, seriously. If you're trying to play Devil's advocate, it's being taken to levels that are grating.

Intentionally? Maybe not.
Once again, not attacking.  I am making a point.  You see you don't think you are a douchebag but by your own definition here you would be.  It's like I am offering some sort of proof that your idea is flawed.  Mostly because that is what I did.

I am not attacking you, get that concept into your brain. 

Discuss the topic at hand or start a new topic of your own devising. 
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Elennsar

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #152 on: November 03, 2008, 05:46:22 AM »
Here's a question.

What do we want to avoid being in the definition?

Presumably, if people are mature on both sides, a spirited debate is to be vigorously encoruaged, rather than discouraged, even if it uses strong language (profane or otherwise).

But is say, spamming douchebaggery? Spam defined as filling a post with the following:
"AHALGAHSDG(#^#U@^JNALAW^" and posting lots of that.

Or "PENIS ENLARGEMENT! ONLY $30 BUCKS BUY NOW BUY NOW!"

Either would be spam. Is that douchery or just in bad taste like a joke about incest?

So far, I don't see any sign anyone is doing it, but I'm curious if that is or is not part of the acts-that-make-this-site-a-worse-place that is the gist we're working from, apparently. What exactly "the site" and "worse" mean we're not sure.

So, trying to find out what isn't as part of figuring out what kinds of behavior we're left with.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

Josh

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #153 on: November 03, 2008, 05:59:17 AM »
Here's a question.

What do we want to avoid being in the definition?

Presumably, if people are mature on both sides, a spirited debate is to be vigorously encoruaged, rather than discouraged, even if it uses strong language (profane or otherwise).

But is say, spamming douchebaggery? Spam defined as filling a post with the following:
"AHALGAHSDG(#^#U@^JNALAW^" and posting lots of that.

Or "PENIS ENLARGEMENT! ONLY $30 BUCKS BUY NOW BUY NOW!"

Either would be spam. Is that douchery or just in bad taste like a joke about incest?

So far, I don't see any sign anyone is doing it, but I'm curious if that is or is not part of the acts-that-make-this-site-a-worse-place that is the gist we're working from, apparently. What exactly "the site" and "worse" mean we're not sure.

So, trying to find out what isn't as part of figuring out what kinds of behavior we're left with.
Spam is an unsolicited mass mailing or similar.

So, no don't do that.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #154 on: November 05, 2008, 02:22:41 PM »
Can I link this thread to itself starting a few pages back and present it as a number of examples?
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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[/spoiler]

Josh

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #155 on: November 05, 2008, 03:38:55 PM »
I would rather you quoted examples
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #156 on: November 05, 2008, 05:37:07 PM »
That would require me to post a number of links equal to the number of posts in that time frame divided by 2, give or take. I'd rather not make several dozen separate links.
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If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Josh

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #157 on: November 05, 2008, 10:08:32 PM »
That would require me to post a number of links equal to the number of posts in that time frame divided by 2, give or take. I'd rather not make several dozen separate links.
Then no.  One good example is better than 10 poor ones.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #158 on: November 06, 2008, 12:18:45 PM »
That would require me to post a number of links equal to the number of posts in that time frame divided by 2, give or take. I'd rather not make several dozen separate links.
Then no.  One good example is better than 10 poor ones.

Very well. Will this suffice as a single example?
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Josh

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Re: What is Douchebaggery?
« Reply #159 on: November 06, 2008, 12:31:35 PM »
That would require me to post a number of links equal to the number of posts in that time frame divided by 2, give or take. I'd rather not make several dozen separate links.
Then no.  One good example is better than 10 poor ones.

Very well. Will this suffice as a single example?

no, you need to explain the example.
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