Author Topic: Core+PHB2 Cleric, optimizing for fun, advice needed.  (Read 6302 times)

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pfooti

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Core+PHB2 Cleric, optimizing for fun, advice needed.
« on: October 22, 2008, 01:00:16 PM »
Here's the assumptions: rolled stats, and I don't know what they are yet. Will be rolling a 4d6c3 method, so I can assume a decent wis/con, but not much else.

Classes are core (PHB/XPH) and PHB2 only. Spell selection comes from PHB and PHB2, as do feats, races, etc. So, a very limited set of possibilities here.

I'm not shooting for CoDZilla, but what I AM shooting for is some idea about how to not suck until level 7. We'll be playing levels 1-15 or thereabouts. I've played clerics before, and have read the appropriate handbooks, so I don't need total build or anything, just a nudge in the right direction.

When I did this in the past, from levels 3 to 7, I ended up casting a LOT of spiritual weapon and doing little else. By the time I got to level 7 and say, "Woo, Divine Power!", I ended up realizing that I was so MAD, my buffed strength was just a 20, and I was still just wielding a dinky little mace. It sucked, and I ended up swapping the character for a crusader and dumping the healing duties on a wand-jockey.

I don't really want to be a healbot, but I recognize the need for the occasional in-combat Big Heal. I think Divine Ward is in PHB2, which will make life easier, especially in plate. Also, in a world without the Rod and Orb of stat-repair from the MIC, I think I'll be casting a large number of Lesser Restorations. So I can't put all my spellcasting on offense (and in the core+PHB2 spell list, there's not a ton anyway). I also am uninterested in casting more than one buff per combat. Nothing annoys me more than spending too many turns buffing and not fighting.

So, I need some ideas for how to approach a cleric in a way that makes them kind of interesting, more than just "I cast bless", "I attack for miniscule damage", and "I cast cure lights after combat until everyone falls asleep". I can see how at level 9 or so, things get pretty interesting, but EVERYBODY is interesting with 5th-level spells. The problem is doing it prior to 9.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 12:53:20 PM by pfooti »

AfterCrescent

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Re: Core-only Cleric, optimizing for fun, advice needed.
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2008, 02:43:08 PM »
So do you want to be a melee-style beatstick-cleric or what?

Main statting strength and con with a nice two handed weapon, Spiritual weapon and Divine Retaliation are good ways to enter the combat fray.
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pfooti

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Re: Core-only Cleric, optimizing for fun, advice needed.
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2008, 02:54:51 PM »
I'm not certain, this is where I'm kind of up in the air. I've thought about trying for the beefstick - STR plus a 2H weapon can do well here. I'm also looking at a ranged guy, with a bow and an attitude. It seems like beefsticking is better - your 2H weapon scales better with strength buffs. Hmm, maybe I just look at the standard core cleric with ... what, a Spear? Do I dip or take feats to get better weapons? Go with the War Domain?

I guess what I'm mainly worried about is the core-only spell lists. If I'm trying to be more fun-oriented, especially in bigger combats, maybe it's worth delaying cleric by a level or so to take a level of fighter for proficiencies and a feat.

By "fun-oriented", I mainly mean: has different options in combat and can damage opponents. Isn't relegated to buffing the party and debuffing the enemies. I'm playing a debuffer right now, and it's fun, but gets a little tedious. I need to hit stuff with a weapon (be it ranged or melee) and do it reasonably well for 7 levels until I can get Divine Power.

AfterCrescent

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Re: Core-only Cleric, optimizing for fun, advice needed.
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2008, 03:11:41 PM »
In core only, fighter 2 is not a bad dip for a melee cleric. You can grab some nice combat feats. However, it also does mean your spells are delayed further. If you go Kord, you can grab the war domain for a greatsword and be pretty well set there... Archery would be nicer with CW, but it's still doable...
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pfooti

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Re: Core-only Cleric, optimizing for fun, advice needed.
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2008, 03:13:41 PM »
Hmm, thanks. I'll take a gander at what a fighter2/cleric18 build looks like as it progresses. No skill points, that's for sure! But if I'm not struggling to be a crazy casting cleric, it might be okay. This is my favorite part about character creation - so many options, so much potential, even in core-only.

StPeteGamer

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Re: Core-only Cleric, optimizing for fun, advice needed.
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2008, 04:23:01 PM »
Well casting heals should never be a problem if you are a good or neutral cleric as you never have to memorize them they just happen.  Have you thought about getting Quicken and DMM quicken that way you can buff and still act?

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Core-only Cleric, optimizing for fun, advice needed.
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2008, 04:23:40 PM »
In core only, fighter 2 is not a bad dip for a melee cleric. You can grab some nice combat feats. However, it also does mean your spells are delayed further. If you go Kord, you can grab the war domain for a greatsword and be pretty well set there... Archery would be nicer with CW, but it's still doable...
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Kord unfortunately (and strangely enough  :eh) doesn't grant the War domain...


:D

EDIT:
Well casting heals should never be a problem if you are a good or neutral cleric as you never have to memorize them they just happen.  Have you thought about getting Quicken and DMM quicken that way you can buff and still act?
DMM is in Complete Divine  :eh
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 04:25:19 PM by BowenSilverclaw »
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pfooti

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Re: Core-only Cleric, optimizing for fun, advice needed.
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2008, 04:31:38 PM »
One of the House-Gods is a kord-alike with the War Domain, so that's a possibility there. Also has Glory, which is a decent domain to boot. As to quickening, I'll probably learn Quicken around level 9 or 12, but DMM is out of the question as that's from CompDiv.

It's funny, I might actually be able to get away with a Paladin in this situation. I'm not super-worried about healing on a per-day basis, we can always have a party slush fund for wands, and I can use Lay on Hands for the occasional emerg heal. We just need someone who can actually use the wands of lesser restoration, cure FOO wounds, scrolls of restoration, and so on. Perhaps charging smite and swift-action buff spells make the Paladin a pretty good option, even in core-only (provided the party is willing to pay for their own healing consumables). Hmm. Then again, at later levels, Heal is a pretty uber spell to hit someone with who just got their face bit off. Hmm.

StPeteGamer

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Re: Core-only Cleric, optimizing for fun, advice needed.
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2008, 04:33:47 PM »
EDIT:
Well casting heals should never be a problem if you are a good or neutral cleric as you never have to memorize them they just happen.  Have you thought about getting Quicken and DMM quicken that way you can buff and still act?
DMM is in Complete Divine  :eh

ugh I ninjaed you and didnt even give good information shame on me....  Quicken might still be useful for buffs but not as useful as it would be if you had DMM...   How much cash you start with?

Edit:  If all you want to do is bang than IMO paladin would be a much better choice than cleric.  At higher levels they still sell scrolls of HEal....

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Core-only Cleric, optimizing for fun, advice needed.
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2008, 04:45:43 PM »
I'm a fan of the basic Fire and Earth domains, myself.  Do you know how many creatures in the SRD have either and elemental descriptors or are undead?  More than half!  Which means, basically, that you can turn / rebuke / control / destroy more than half the creatures in the game.  Also, the fire domain has some blasty options, and you aren't typecast as the typical core-Cleric Healbot / Beatstick (particularly if the PHB2 Spontaneous Domain feature is allowed and you take it for the Fire domain).  Its also flavorful for a crafting Dwarf-type character.  Here's some feats:

Extra Turning, Improved Turning, Craft Arms and Armor, Craft Staff, Empower Spell, Improved Initiative
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 04:48:13 PM by jameswilliamogle »

Akalsaris

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Re: Core-only Cleric, optimizing for fun, advice needed.
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2008, 04:46:41 PM »
PHB II doesn't have too many swift-action paladin buff spells IIRC.  I like cleric spells though, so I'm biased towards going straight cleric in core, even if your lower levels are spent casting spiritual hammer a lot.  Either way, you'll obviously want to grab one of the divine feats in the PHBII, and look at the spells available in PHB II...I personally make extensive use of Black karma curse and blade of blood with my low-level cleric.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Core-only Cleric, optimizing for fun, advice needed.
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2008, 04:49:10 PM »
I'm a fan of the basic Fire and Earth domains, myself.  Do you know how many creatures in the SRD have either and elemental descriptors or are undead?  More than half!  Which means, basically, that you can turn / rebuke / control / destroy more than half the creatures in the game.  Also, the fire domain has some blasty options, and you aren't typecast as the typical core-Cleric Healbot / Beatstick (particularly if the PHB2 Spontaneous Domain feature is allowed and you take it for the Fire domain). 
I've considered playing a "turn everything" cleric, but never actually tried it. It would certainly be different, and you could still focus on other things as well. I think RPing a cleric that worships the elements, or a primal elemental god, sounds like fun too.
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AfterCrescent

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Re: Core-only Cleric, optimizing for fun, advice needed.
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2008, 05:17:47 PM »
The cake is a lie.
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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Core-only Cleric, optimizing for fun, advice needed.
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2008, 05:51:50 PM »
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Core-only Cleric, optimizing for fun, advice needed.
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2008, 06:03:56 PM »
Main thing to keep in mind about turning is that it is HD based. HD scales faster than CR. As a result, you must optimize the fuck out of it or you will quickly be pushed off the random number generator. That is to say, your turns will never work against anything remotely level appropriate.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Core-only Cleric, optimizing for fun, advice needed.
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2008, 06:25:10 PM »
Main thing to keep in mind about turning is that it is HD based. HD scales faster than CR. As a result, you must optimize the fuck out of it or you will quickly be pushed off the random number generator. That is to say, your turns will never work against anything remotely level appropriate.
Good point, and in a core-only game about the only things that add to that are the Phylactery of Undead Turning, and the Improved Turning feat, and who wants to burn feats on this? Some of the elemental domains are decent anyway, though, so you could look at the expanded turning powers as a bonus.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

AfterCrescent

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Re: Core-only Cleric, optimizing for fun, advice needed.
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2008, 07:11:33 PM »
What? You want me to hit you somewhere else?  :P
No, that' fine. :P It was more of a 'orly' expression.
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Re: Core-only Cleric, optimizing for fun, advice needed.
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2008, 07:30:47 PM »
If you want weapon proficiency and you can use the XPH, I would suggest a one or two level PsyWar dip. Compared to a two level dip in Fighter, you get as many bonus feats, the same proficiencies, an expanded list for bonus feats, a couple of powers (I like offensive precognition and prescience myself, although expansion is a classic), and a power point reserve that gives you access to all kinds of nice feats. All for the loss of a single point of BAB. Plus, you get nice synergy because Wisdom is your primary stat for casting a manifesting.
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Re: Core-only Cleric, optimizing for fun, advice needed.
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2008, 07:38:37 PM »
The spontaneous domain variant is in PHB II so a domain with interesting spells could spice things up.

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Re: Core-only Cleric, optimizing for fun, advice needed.
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2008, 09:20:20 PM »
Why not give the cleric with a monk belt a spin? Not as cool as a kung-fu bear, but that doesn't work so good without wildling clasps anyway.

For a beatstick, though, I have to agree that Psywar is better than fighter as a dip. War Domain with a greatsword should be nice, but the selection of combat feats in core only is piss poor (made a bit better by PHB II, but still). You might be able to make a decent lockdown build with stand still + a Spiked Chain (gotten with those tasty bonus feats), or you could power attack with those cool feats in PHB II (I forget at the moment, but I know they exist).