The Savager (Nine Swords Barb/Ranger/Scout)

[RobbyPants]

Anyway, about the level shifting stuff I posted above: what do people think? Filling the dead levels out a good idea? Does that placement of abilities seem reasonable?

Well, for where it's at now (I'm not sure if it's been changed since I last looked), I'd say the dead levels are fine.  All of them come at odd levels, which is when you'll get a new level of maneuvers.  You're already getting something cool at that level.

Now, I'm not saying you can't put something in an odd numbered level.  I'd just make sure all the even numbered levels are filled up, and don't feel like you need to add something to an odd  numbered level just for the sake of filling it.

[Hallack]

This class not only incorporates abilities from the phased out classes it does so in a way that may be too much.

Flawless Stride 2nd level- normally 6th for Scout
Camouflage 4th level- normally 8th for Scout
Improved Uncanny Dodge 5th level- nomrally 8 for Rogue, 5th for Barbarian

Full Scout Skirmish (With full BAB)!!!

Dire Charge (ex): equals +4 to hit -3 AC and -1 Saves for normal Charge action (plus the other goodies)?
                        Used in conjunction with Charge related maneuvers which do not have the normal penalties I 
                        think will open up some unforeseen areas of possible abuse. Requiring a Swift action to
                        activate does however go a long ways to helping balance (maybe even enough) due to
                        competing for Swift action usage between the charge, maneuvers, and maneuver recovery.
 
Then Unstoppable and Savage Charges give more attacks on charges (which will be very nice with Skirmish).
Most have to spend several feats or careful prestige classing to get such nice charging abilities don't they?  At the very least these should probably be progression of Dire Charge and not separate abilities.  (ie have to spend that Swift action to use).

I suspect that even without the Adrenaline abilities this class is likely to outshine or at least equal other ToB classes in combat.  Then even outside of combat they will have tons more options due to skills.  I think that as is it may overshadow the others.  Plus I can just see this barbarian self mutilating so as to get worked up to go kick some arse hehe.

Some Changes to consider:
Perhaps add Trackless step as a precursor and filler on way to Hidden Stride.
Flawless stride to around 6th or 7th
Camo to 8-10th
Perhaps hidden stride should not cover Scent (perhaps break down into progressive coverage where blindsight and scent covered at higher level?)

Okay, time to work for a bit

[bkdubs123]

Flawless Stride 2nd level- normally 6th for Scout
Camouflage 4th level- normally 8th for Scout
Improved Uncanny Dodge 5th level- nomrally 8 for Rogue, 5th for Barbarian

I am considering moving these around. Please catch up on the thread before posting without fully understanding updates and such.

Full Scout Skirmish (With full BAB)!!!

It was never full, but has since been lowered to I think half scout progression. Check the OP.

Dire Charge (ex): equals +4 to hit -3 AC and -1 Saves for normal Charge action (plus the other goodies)?
                        Used in conjunction with Charge related maneuvers which do not have the normal penalties I 
                        think will open up some unforeseen areas of possible abuse. Requiring a Swift action to
                        activate does however go a long ways to helping balance (maybe even enough) due to
                        competing for Swift action usage between the charge, maneuvers, and maneuver recovery.

Who says the charge related maneuves don't have the normal penalties? The only thing they negate (sometimes) is attacks of opportunity. Charging, even with a maneuver, always grants a +2 to hit, a -2 to AC. Always.
 

Then Unstoppable and Savage Charges give more attacks on charges (which will be very nice with Skirmish).
Most have to spend several feats or careful prestige classing to get such nice charging abilities don't they?  At the very least these should probably be progression of Dire Charge and not separate abilities.  (ie have to spend that Swift action to use).

I'll consider it, but I'm not sure. These are kinda part of the unity of the class. It allows it fight differently then any class already made, and it makes sure to grant Skirmish.

I suspect that even without the Adrenaline abilities this class is likely to outshine or at least equal other ToB classes in combat.  Then even outside of combat they will have tons more options due to skills.  I think that as is it may overshadow the others.  Plus I can just see this barbarian self mutilating so as to get worked up to go kick some arse hehe.

It's supposed to equal the ToB classes in combat, or at least come close to it. It's going to get hit A LOT though. Its armor is abysmal, and it only has simple weapons.

Some Changes to consider:
Perhaps add Trackless step as a precursor and filler on way to Hidden Stride.
Flawless stride to around 6th or 7th
Camo to 8-10th
Perhaps hidden stride should not cover Scent (perhaps break down into progressive coverage where blindsight and scent covered at higher level?)

I am considering changing Flawless Stride to 6th level, I have already been considering that. Camo isn't getting moved that low. I am also considering adding Trackless Step (as my posts above illustrate. Sorry, I don't mean to sound angry, I'm not, but before decrying something as broken check to see what the class actually is and says first.

[Hallack]

Please catch up on the thread before posting without fully understanding updates and such.

Sorry, I don't mean to sound angry, I'm not, but before decrying something as broken check to see what the class actually is and says first.

A simple "thanks, I've already been considering some of that.  Check out the previous posts" would have sufficed.  I did read those posts but apparently skimmed the part about your considerations for Trackless step. 

Indeed Skirmish has been lowered.  I saw it but it did no 'click'. 

Who says the charge related maneuves don't have the normal penalties?

Not I.  I was only pointing out that interactions with maneuvers and the class abilities should be well considered before set in stone.  I believe most such maneuvers of interest are not even in this classes chosen disciplines.  But then it still may be good to look at them anyways do to multiclassing and or prestige classes.

My apologies for ruffling feathers.  As I stated in a previous post I am not here to tell you how to make your class.  I only have and idea of what you are trying to achieve in balance and what is a good balance in your groups playstyle.  I only intended to bring up points for consideration.

I shall now bow out and wish you the best in this class development.

[Risada]

Well...I kind of think that this guy needs Desert Wind. I mean, half of the time he will be running around the batle field and such, and the fire-related stuff could be his "excitement" in battle...

Would it be reasonable to cut out Setting Sun and say that the Savager gets his choice of either Desert Wind or White Raven?

That could do.... but maybe choosing between SS and DW?

[bkdubs123]

Meh, sorry, again. I just seem to get a lot of people that don't fully read my stuff before posting, and a lot of people exclaiming BROKEN or imbalanced without noticing what I've done to keep it balanced.

[bkdubs123]

That could do.... but maybe choosing between SS and DW?

Yeah, I think I've pretty much come to the conclusion that, for the record, I don't want the class to have access to Desert Wind. Now, it's established that the disciplines are mostly well balanced against each other, especially in theory, but also that in most cases Desert Wind will prove to be the weakest in practice. So feel free if you ever play the class to substitute Desert Wind for any other discipline.

[dman11235]

DW doesn't make much sense at all.  Tiger, White, SS, Stone, Falling Star (Tempest Stormwind version) would be my pick.  White Raven is the most powerful of these.  Tiger, Stone (everyone has it), and Falling all add to the ranger feel.  White has all the charging things, and adds a measure of power.  Since Stone is one of the weakest paths, and Tiger isn't far behind they need it.  The other 5 paths....don't really do it.  Diamond, Devoted, and Iron are right out, Shadow is too supernatural and doesn't fit anyways, DW is also (su) and the abilities don't lend themselves to a ranger feel.

[bkdubs123]

Hrm... you might be right that Shadow Hand should be out too... the concealment stuff seemed to fit alright with me, but the teleports and ranged shadow attacks things like that don't make any sense. Which really makes me sad, because the rest would be so nice...

Oh, and I have adapted Tempest's Falling Star discipline for The Warrior's Way. Did he ever finish that? I thought it was only about half done. If he did, that would have save me the trouble! But yeah, considering it is sort of "bonus material" in The Warrior's Way and this is already a custom class I didn't want to offer a custom class with a custom discipline. But yeah, Falling Star certainly fits the bill.

I've got lots of discipline material that I'm adapting right now, from a 3.75 project I had underway. It's a little tedious, because lot of it is just retyping, but I have some interesting stuff. I should make a thread about that. *goes and does*

[dman11235]

He did.  It's just not on the front page.

[SiggyDevil]

About maneuvers usable for free... nuh-uh. Don't like it. You and your balance everything up to casters! Grr! Bad, Siggy! Not for me. I'd rather bring everyone to Tier 3~2. Low Tier 2. That means bringing fighters up and casters down. That means I'm not giving a Savager teleportation and/or Summon Elder Spirit.

Not that I'm pushing for actual change (just a thought experiment) but how about unlimited maneuvers with some kind of stamina concept?
Also, maneuvers aren't very powerful. That's mostly why it wouldn't bother me, really, since a Warblade 1 all the way up to Warblade 20 slinging out XdY damage each round still can't compete to a single battle of Arcane Thesis/Metamagic twinkery evenly.
The power of consistency vs. the power to explode beyond expected outputs.

As far as the bold quote goes, enjoy your Savage-in-a-box!
Here's to hoping a dungeon tunnel doesn't collapse on 'em or, well, a Forcecage or something...

[bkdubs123]

a Warblade 1 all the way up to Warblade 20 slinging out XdY damage each round still can't compete to a single battle of Arcane Thesis/Metamagic twinkery evenly.
The power of consistency vs. the power to explode beyond expected outputs.

But this is exactly what I intend to balance out in a game that runs a Savager. Spellcasters just won't have Arcane Thesis/Metamagic twinkery.

As far as the bold quote goes, enjoy your Savage-in-a-box!
Here's to hoping a dungeon tunnel doesn't collapse on 'em or, well, a Forcecage or something...

If the DM causes a dungeon tunnel to collapse on you, and just says, "Ha! You're dead!" then he's a fucking asshole. Now Forcecage, if I keep things like that in the game, will not be a life ending effect. It will suck, but it will be a Wizard's temporary solution to a really pissed off problem, at best.

[TheChrisWaits]

Not that I'm pushing for actual change (just a thought experiment) but how about unlimited maneuvers with some kind of stamina concept?

Like psionics?

[veekie]

Not that I'm pushing for actual change (just a thought experiment) but how about unlimited maneuvers with some kind of stamina concept?

Like psionics?

With a recovery rate closer to /encounter rates and a much smaller pool(bigger pools makes novas more rewarding in the short term, while smaller pools that recover faster favor more tactical application of powers, with a longer adventuring day than traditional huge pools that end up being dumped into Alpha Strikes by inexperienced players)? I proposed that before a couple of times before as well, though nobody took up on it.

[SiggyDevil]

If the DM causes a dungeon tunnel to collapse on you, and just says, "Ha! You're dead!" then he's a fucking asshole. Now Forcecage, if I keep things like that in the game, will not be a life ending effect. It will suck, but it will be a Wizard's temporary solution to a really pissed off problem, at best.

Good call. Common opinion I've seen over the years is the same, really.
.. but by 'trapped in a dungeon' I mean any number of movement-limiting situations.
How will the Savager deal with a huge pitfall?
What about a whirlwind?
How about a dragon's gut?
I see it not as a DM/Player issue (unless someone 'pulls a Gygax' and indeed does simply kill a PC without allowing reaction or save) but rather as a limited options dilemma.
When a certain situation occurs, what can the class give a PC to get out of that situation or defeat it?

Just something to think about. Specifically as a warrior, it's fine, but form time to time I ponder "What else could a class allow a character to do beyond the expected routine?"

Like psionics?

Hmm.. I mean more of a universally applied stamina concept. Not something anyone can deplete from another character or ever regain other than by natural brief rest, but essentially that any powerful ability a character has uses 1 stamina no matter what it is and yet many abilities are free to use as many times as they wish. Controlling this amount keeps combat within X expected rounds (such as 10 rounds) before a character's stamina runs out.
Weaker abilities (and normal attacks) don't decrease stamina.
The stamina pool would be, say, equal to CON score, but adding level to that would make combat be able to run longer as characters advance, which is good.

I suppose that yes in ways like pee-syonics but as far as subtracting multiple points from a pool, no.
More of a count down until a character can't use their best stuff as often. Prevents lockdown tactics, encourages wise use of options, and keeps anyone from being The Hero for too long before relying on others.

[SiggyDevil]

With a recovery rate closer to /encounter rates and a much smaller pool(bigger pools makes novas more rewarding in the short term, while smaller pools that recover faster favor more tactical application of powers, with a longer adventuring day than traditional huge pools that end up being dumped into Alpha Strikes by inexperienced players)? I proposed that before a couple of times before as well, though nobody took up on it.

Yeah, per-encounter might relate to the stamina concept. It's similar: as you stated, prevent novas, encourage resource management (economy of actions: you only get so many)

The key part about my proposal is that when Stamina reaches 0 the character is Fatigued and whatnot but can still use abilities that don't require Stamina, but those outputs won't match the optimal powers. They might be, for instance, no more than half as much damage, limited range, not as versatile.

[dman11235]

Sooooo.......like maneuvers?  Which are stamina based?  And /encounter?

And why must they have it?  Why must they be able to compete with the full casters that tell reality to bend over and take it?  Why can't they just be *good* and function well, and not be able to be broken at all?  Why can't it be tier 3 when optimized and tier 3 when not?  That would be a very good class imo.  Others prefer higher or lower tier games, and that's fine, they have classes for that.