Author Topic: The Savager (Nine Swords Barb/Ranger/Scout)  (Read 12509 times)

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bkdubs123

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Re: The Savager (Nine Swords Barb/Ranger/Scout)
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2008, 05:04:16 PM »
Nah, won't argue that as it is to dependent upon your setting, gameplay, and level of optimization.  For example with the absence of Rangers, Scouts, Rogues, and maybe barbarians those classes won't be crying foul at being underpowered relative to other characters in play. And there really probably would not be any problems with dynamics between casters and this class.  There may or may not be with ToB and other classes depending on the variables I mention above.  

I'm not going to tell you what is right because I do not know your game.  I only intend to point out areas to consider in light of what you are seeking to accomplish.

If I sounded combative, I didn't mean to be, I really want to hear arguments if you have them. I don't want the class to be overpowered compared to the Warblade or Crusader. Indeed the point of this class is to replace Barb/Ranger/Scout and give a class which reasonably represents those archetypes but is balanced against ToB. So, again, if you think this is overpowered with respect to Warblades and Crusaders, please, let me know what and why.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 06:28:30 PM by bkdubs123 »

fil kearney

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Re: The Savager (Nine Swords Barb/Ranger/Scout)
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2008, 05:45:47 PM »
I'd drop white raven.  This class feels more "lone wolf" than "team player" to me...  WR is all about team tactics... I'd also argue that setting sun isn't so much in alignment with this guy either.. but that is just an intuition more than logic.  Mostly looking to reduce school options to counter the class features already granted.   SH, SD, TC is plenty for the 10 maneuvers they will know.  No need to overdose on awesome. 
I like the skirmish progression meshing with the improved charge. 
I like the stealth options and skills.
I really like the adrenaline kicking in at 50%... does it end when healed above 50% again?  That would be a good balancing factor instead of the traditional "fatigued" penalty of lame.

This guy has good endurance without invading crusader flavor at all. 
Can you clarify the recover mechanics? is it simply like warblade + adrenalin recover?

RobbyPants

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Re: The Savager (Nine Swords Barb/Ranger/Scout)
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2008, 06:00:58 PM »
I don't want to put words into dman's mouth, but I'm assuming when he said one was stupid, he meant that you have to be below half health (which is not a good thing!).
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dman11235

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Re: The Savager (Nine Swords Barb/Ranger/Scout)
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2008, 06:29:11 PM »
It doesn't make it inherently wrong, but I saw someone state earlier that a warblade was a full attack action and you could initiate a maneuver.  I was just pointing it out.  It does mean that you need to be careful about the recovery mechanic.

The first condition: it requires you to be hurt to use, and then it requires you to be hurt again in order for it to trigger.  This means you want to be hurt.  Which is counter intuitive.  The second: is a swift action.  That's nothing.  It takes no sacrifice and has no real drawback.  Warblade: swift+standard, meaning no full attack or maneuvers.  SS: full round action (admittedly weak, and even with Adaptive Style (the full round recover all feat) it's kinda lacking).  Crusader: maneuvers are not guaranteed.  So the first one is one you don't want to use, because being hurt is a bad thing especially when below 50% HP, and the second one makes the first obsolete since you don't need it to basically auto-recover.  Personally I think the Warblade one is a tad weak, and allowing a swift action followed by a full attack would be fine, just that it's a swift action that gets used up and you don't activate a maneuver.

Quote
Okay, and with Ranger Swift Hunters running around I don't see a huge problem simply folding the ranger and scout into the same class. The rage substitute is, IMO, pretty damned awesome when you get it. Yeah, you can't activate it whenever you want, but then again why would you be able to just fly into a rage for no reason? That's also why the bonuses, which you consider not that great, are so high? Should I increase the Adrenaline bonuses? You'd consider changing out features - so, which then? I am certainly considering lowering the Skirmish progression, that's the easiest thing to do.

I'm not so much against the combining of ranger+scout, I'm against the making them obsolete.  By having the same mechanics only more and better.  And I mean, I'd put a scout almost on par with a swordsage, the weakest of the ToB classes, and ranger not far behind, so power level doesn't need to rise much.  This has the same number of maneuvers as the warblade, more stances, and the same number of schools to choose from, including one of the two most powerful.  It does not have access to Diamond Mind or Iron Heart, so that's a plus (brings it down in power).  I'd strongly consider slowing the skirmish progression and changing the adrenaline rush feature.

Adrenaline Rush: suffers from the same problem as Berserker Strength (the PHBII barbarian variant that activates when under a certain HP threshold).  You must be hurt...a lot...to use it.  This is not a good thing usually.  Crusader did well with FC, since it's not a driving class feature and doesn't depend on a threshold, but rather just getting hit, and also HELPS survivability.  Granted, the FH and AC boosts help survivability, but also eliminate the feature.  I might be over-reacting a bit though, my minds not with me fully.

@Robby: yes, that's what I meant.
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fil kearney

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Re: The Savager (Nine Swords Barb/Ranger/Scout)
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2008, 08:56:59 PM »
I rather like that recovery = awesome only when badly hurt a la adrenaline rush.  plus the hit/dam/heal boosts... It's one of the features, but not the central feature, IMO. 
but when it is in effect, it has a limited shelf life... if it works like I presume/hope it does, if you are at 40 out of 100 HP, you get adrenaline, an auto recover maneuver and fast healing.  You can start laying heavier smack by spamming your best maneuver each round with additional hit/dam, and when you receive/auto heal, the rush ends, putting you back on warblade recovery (still waiting for clarification about the "normal" recovery mechanic)

I would say the core mechanic for this class is charging and maneuvers.
BTW... if I have two extra attacks during a charge... I assume these are interative attacks?  does this deny me the ability to use a maneuver when I reach the target of my charge?  normally I could use a maneuver with a charge, but these mechanics are different...?
ALSO... do those iterative attacks happen BEFORE or AFTER the attack against the target of my charge?

dman11235

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Re: The Savager (Nine Swords Barb/Ranger/Scout)
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2008, 09:20:12 PM »
You...can't normally use a maneuver with a charge.  A charge is a full round action, and maneuvers are swift, standard, immediate, and full round actions.  There are so maneuvers that involve charging, but that's slightly different.
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bkdubs123

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Re: The Savager (Nine Swords Barb/Ranger/Scout)
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2008, 02:46:44 AM »
I rather like that recovery = awesome only when badly hurt a la adrenaline rush.  plus the hit/dam/heal boosts... It's one of the features, but not the central feature, IMO. 
but when it is in effect, it has a limited shelf life... if it works like I presume/hope it does, if you are at 40 out of 100 HP, you get adrenaline, an auto recover maneuver and fast healing.  You can start laying heavier smack by spamming your best maneuver each round with additional hit/dam, and when you receive/auto heal, the rush ends, putting you back on warblade recovery (still waiting for clarification about the "normal" recovery mechanic)

The recovery is not the same as a Warblade. Warblade uses a swift action and a standard attack and then recovers all of his maneuvers, though he can't use them that round. Savager uses just a swift action and recovers just one maneuver, but can't use the recovered maneuver that turn. See the difference?

Quote
I would say the core mechanic for this class is charging and maneuvers.
BTW... if I have two extra attacks during a charge... I assume these are interative attacks?  does this deny me the ability to use a maneuver when I reach the target of my charge?  normally I could use a maneuver with a charge, but these mechanics are different...?
ALSO... do those iterative attacks happen BEFORE or AFTER the attack against the target of my charge?

They are not iterative attacks, but they function almost the same. Normal charging mechanics prevent you from using a maneuver at the end of the charge, however you could use a charging maneuver, of which there are a few, and still get the bonus attacks. These bonus attacks can be used whenever you want during the charge, as is clearly stated. You can attack enemies you pass during the charge, or you can save them and "pounce" on your foe at the end of the charge.

SiggyDevil

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Re: The Savager (Nine Swords Barb/Ranger/Scout)
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2008, 03:55:23 AM »
bjkdubs, looks like you were right about the Fast Healing with HP-max limits.
Especially at low levels, it really doesn't 'cheat' any more than having a character with unlimited Cure Minor Wounds.

I put the same kind of healing as Adrenaline (yours) in the Troll Thrasher (mine, Feybook)

bkdubs123

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Re: The Savager (Nine Swords Barb/Ranger/Scout)
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2008, 05:10:42 AM »
Heh. Awesome.

EDIT: Added a note to Adrenaline about multiclass Savagers. Preventing one level dip FTW!!
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 06:13:40 AM by bkdubs123 »

RobbyPants

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Re: The Savager (Nine Swords Barb/Ranger/Scout)
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2008, 09:41:43 AM »
The multiclassing adrenaline note certainly helps abuse, but it could be a pain to track.  You have to run up two separate HP totals to calculate this correctly.  It's not hard, but it's more work than normal, which might be a turn off to some players.

I guess it's not that bad though.  You just do all your work when you level.  You track two separate HP totals (your "adrenaline" total and your regular total), and you track a third number (your calculated "1/2 adrenaline total").  I guess you only have to do this once per level, and it only matters if you multiclass.

This reminds me: are you thinking of making any PrCs that count as savagers for this purpose?  I'm not saying you need to make any, but I could see several PrCs, each that focus on a different aspect of the savager (rage, skirmish, stealth, or whatever).

The recovery is not the same as a Warblade. Warblade uses a swift action and a standard attack and then recovers all of his maneuvers, though he can't use them that round. Savager uses just a swift action and recovers just one maneuver, but can't use the recovered maneuver that turn. See the difference?
That doesn't seem so bad.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: The Savager (Nine Swords Barb/Ranger/Scout)
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2008, 11:29:29 AM »
I guess it's not that bad though.  You just do all your work when you level.  You track two separate HP totals (your "adrenaline" total and your regular total), and you track a third number (your calculated "1/2 adrenaline total").  I guess you only have to do this once per level, and it only matters if you multiclass.

Yep, those were my thoughts exactly. I needed a fix for the dip, I found one that wasn't so bad, so I went with it.

Quote
This reminds me: are you thinking of making any PrCs that count as savagers for this purpose?  I'm not saying you need to make any, but I could see several PrCs, each that focus on a different aspect of the savager (rage, skirmish, stealth, or whatever).

I'm not, no. I generally dislike PrCs. But, my players like them, so if anyone else wanted to craft a PrC or two for it, I certainly wouldn't mind.

RobbyPants

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Re: The Savager (Nine Swords Barb/Ranger/Scout)
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2008, 12:35:51 PM »
I'm not, no. I generally dislike PrCs. But, my players like them, so if anyone else wanted to craft a PrC or two for it, I certainly wouldn't mind.
Well, if your base classes are good enough, you don't really need PrCs.



I do know what you're talking about with the players liking PrCs, though.  I had one player in particular who would generally begin character creation by flipping through the books looking for PrCs.  Sometimes she wouldn't put that much planning into it, and would start looking around levels 2-4, which sucks if you haven't begun taking the prereqs.  Basically, any PC she made had to have a PrC. 

I remember her making a druid once.  After a session or two, she asked me what a good PrC was for a druid, to which I replied: "druid". :P

[/offtopic]
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: The Savager (Nine Swords Barb/Ranger/Scout)
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2008, 01:06:41 PM »
Yeah, I mean the idea you had about two or three PrCs for the class is certainly a good one. I could see a Rage focused one (a la Frenzied Berserker), and certainly a Stealth one. Maybe even a Warblade/Savager mix for some sort of tactical ranger-y goodness utilizing Knowledge Devotion and such. *shrug* They're good ideas, but again I generally don't write PrCs.

Risada

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Re: The Savager (Nine Swords Barb/Ranger/Scout)
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2008, 02:08:47 PM »
Well...I kind of think that this guy needs Desert Wind. I mean, half of the time he will be running around the batle field and such, and the fire-related stuff could be his "excitement" in battle...

bkdubs123

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Re: The Savager (Nine Swords Barb/Ranger/Scout)
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2008, 02:36:18 AM »
Okay, so in the interest of filling dead levels I am considering moving Camo to 2nd level, Flawless Stride to 7th, and placing Trackless Step at 4th level. Further, I would move Free Movement to 17th level, and then put in Blindsense 30ft, and Blindsight 30ft at 13th and 19th levels respectively.

Seem reasonable?

Well...I kind of think that this guy needs Desert Wind. I mean, half of the time he will be running around the batle field and such, and the fire-related stuff could be his "excitement" in battle...

Would it be reasonable to cut out Setting Sun and say that the Savager gets his choice of either Desert Wind or White Raven?

fil kearney

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Re: The Savager (Nine Swords Barb/Ranger/Scout)
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2008, 02:49:36 AM »
I still think white raven should go...  swap SS for DW

bkdubs123

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Re: The Savager (Nine Swords Barb/Ranger/Scout)
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2008, 04:26:17 AM »
I still think white raven should go...  swap SS for DW

I can't condone just switching SS for DW. Desert Wind is too supernatural in nature. If the class were more druid-y, then maybe I'd go with it, but giving it four completely mundane schools and suddenly one semi-magical one just doesn't mesh with my reason.

As for White Raven - Leading the Charge, Battle Leader's Charge, Lion's Roar, Wolf Pack Tactics, War Leader's Charge, Clarion Call, War Master's Charge.

The non bolded ones have strong animalistic tendencies or trigger on your dropping a foe in combat. I'd say that given the mechanics and flavor of the class that White Raven should probably stay.

Anyway, about the level shifting stuff I posted above: what do people think? Filling the dead levels out a good idea? Does that placement of abilities seem reasonable?

SiggyDevil

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Re: The Savager (Nine Swords Barb/Ranger/Scout)
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2008, 05:47:40 AM »
Well IMO you shouldn't cut the max HP down to "half of HP from Savager levels". That's a bit excessive in limitations and I liked your original incarnation of it... but anyways.

Yes, add the martial schools you chose. They are good picks.
No Desert Wind for these guys.. that's more of a Monk-like or Ninja-like thing.

Level 7: Some kind of countering or "break free" effect X times per (time span) such as 1/hour, like Freedom of Movement. Iron Heart Surge is... poorly written.
Level 13: Needs a way to deal with teleporters, flyers, etc. Perhaps jumping really far and really fast? heh
Level 17: He's done for against spellcasters, but it's worth a shot... need some kind of method for either regenerating (surging?) back from the dead... and maybe summoning ancient spirits to do shit for you like Plane Shift, although it probably needs that kind of help earlier on too.


Side note: What do you think of making maneuvers usable for free... like... all the time? Just an idea.

bkdubs123

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Re: The Savager (Nine Swords Barb/Ranger/Scout)
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2008, 06:29:17 AM »
It isn't cut to half from Savager levels. It's half from non-savager levels.

I might consider your suggestion for 7th level. For 13th though, buy boots of flying. They've been available forever by now and there's a reason characters have wealth by level. 17th level I wouldn't say he's done for against casters. He can charge through shit like it's his job by this point. If he's got any way to give himself more speed he can book it to a caster even through a crowded battlefield and basically pounce on him with War Master's Charge. OUCH.

About maneuvers usable for free... nuh-uh. Don't like it. You and your balance everything up to casters! Grr! Bad, Siggy! Not for me. I'd rather bring everyone to Tier 3~2. Low Tier 2. That means bringing fighters up and casters down. That means I'm not giving a Savager teleportation and/or Summon Elder Spirit.