Author Topic: Help my improve my Archivist  (Read 3594 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

juton

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 809
  • Jack of all trades, master of nothing.
    • Email
Help my improve my Archivist
« on: October 17, 2008, 08:29:03 PM »
The Build:

Human, 14str,12dex,12con,20int,16wis,10cha.
  • Ranger 1
  • Archivist (Heroes of Horror) X
  • Church Inquisitor (Complete Divine) Y
  • Knight of the Raven (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft) Z

For convuluted story reasons that Ranger 1 level has to stay put. The Curch Inquisitor is there to give me some extra immunities and the bonus to dispel checks. I choose Knight of the Raven instead of Sacred Exorcist for turn undead because getting into Knight of the Raven may be easier to get into in my camgaign.

Key Feats (We use Pathfinder so I get 11 feats):
  • Empowered Spell
  • Extra turning
  • Spell Mastery
  • Uncanny Forethought (Let me spontaneosly cast a spell from my spell book INT times a day)
  • Practiced Spellcaster
  • Quicken Spell
  • DMM Quicken spell
  • Extend spell
  • Persistent spell
  • DMM Persistent spell

My Plan
[spoiler]
Win initiative AND/OR
Cast Celerity
Timestop
Cast Buffs (including but limited to):
  • Empowered Spell Resistance
  • Heightened Dimensional Anchor
Use Belt of Battle (MIC)
Quicken Disjunction Target
Disjunction Target
<Target uses his spells>
<Start of round 2>
Contingent Heal removes the dazed condition
...

With a Prayer bead, Ankh of Ascencion, and magic items for Hymn of Praise and Spell Engine I should have a CL for my Spell Resistance of 32, for a base SR of 44. The ruling in our group would allow an empowered Spell Resistance to give SR 66.

Heightened Dimensional Anchor is there so he doesn't book it, I don't want to go traveling the planes looking for him.

The two Disjunctions are there because I assume he has a contingency against Disjunction, but hopefully only 1.
[/spoiler]

The Motivation:
[spoiler]
I play in a campaign that is growing more and more optimized (and munchy). I don't like it, I've tried to talk to my DM about it but his usual retort is : 'Magic is not overpowered, there's always a counter'. While that is true it's not always practical, and it makes anyone who picked a mundane class feel useless. I hope that beating his uber character he'll be willing to talk to the group about what should be and not be in our game. This DM was a lot better once, I'd like to dial it back down to where it used to be easy going and fun.
[/spoiler]

The Opposition:
[spoiler]
My DM's favourite build is an Ultimate Magus build:
Wizard 3, Sorcerer 1, Ultimate Magus (Complete Mage) 10, ??? 6

I know for sure that this build has the feat Craft Contingent Spell. He always has 20 contingencies on call. I think I know 3 of them : if he's about to be Disjunted couterspell with Disjunction. If he's about to be put into an antimagic zone teleport to his home castle (which may be on a different plane). Lastly a contingent iron guard activates if he is about to be hit. I don't know the other 17, he may have taken a contingency more than once and phrased it in such a way that both don't activate at once.

In our campaign spell storing weapons can hold 3rd level spells WITH metamagic, like an empowered maximized fireball. Also arrows can be made spellstoring and are much cheaper to make than scrolls. Also a wizard (this wizard) could TK 50 spellstoring arrows at a target and force them to all detonate at once. I don't like this rules call so I'd like to avoid exploiting it if I can.
[/spoiler]

The Duel:
[spoiler]
The Duel will (hopefully) take place outside the normal campaign and be refeered by neutral parties.

  • The characters start 30' apart
  • There is no set boundries for an arena
  • The fight continues until one or both characters die or surrender.
  • We may get a chance to buff, we may not. My DM will probably find a justification why he can buff but I can't, but since we still get a chance to prepare spells any persistant buff should remain up.
  • Anything goes

We have begun using Paizo's Pathfinder Beta
All WOTC 3.5 sources allowed, some 3.0 may be usable.
[/spoiler]

I would like to hear ideas on how to buff my intiative especially, because if he catches me without my buffs up it's over. I'd also like suggestions on how to keep him wriggling away or countering his 9th level spells (which he'll still have).

EDIT: I said Artificer where I meant Archivist.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 04:06:10 PM by juton »

woodenbandman

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: Help my improve my Artificer
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2008, 12:34:41 PM »
Well since you've already got ranger, I'd suggest just plain ArtificerX/Ranger1. Artificers are crippled by loss of levels as they need to be able to craft. That crafting is their whole existence. And what's the Heroes of Horror artificer? Do you mean Archivist?

This should also probably be in Min/Max. I'll report it and try to get it moved there.

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: Help my improve my Artificer
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2008, 12:36:43 PM »
Well since you've already got ranger, I'd suggest just plain ArtificerX/Ranger1. Artificers are crippled by loss of levels as they need to be able to craft. That crafting is their whole existence. And what's the Heroes of Horror artificer? Do you mean Archivist?

This should also probably be in Min/Max. I'll report it and try to get it moved there.

I'm pretty sure he did mean Archivist.

Sounds like the DM is messing with him. Also, ewww Pathfinder. No wonder mundanes are (more) useless.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

juton

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 809
  • Jack of all trades, master of nothing.
    • Email
Re: Help my improve my Artificer
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2008, 04:09:37 PM »
Well since you've already got ranger, I'd suggest just plain ArtificerX/Ranger1. Artificers are crippled by loss of levels as they need to be able to craft. That crafting is their whole existence. And what's the Heroes of Horror artificer? Do you mean Archivist?

This should also probably be in Min/Max. I'll report it and try to get it moved there.

I'm pretty sure he did mean Archivist.

Sounds like the DM is messing with him. Also, ewww Pathfinder. No wonder mundanes are (more) useless.

I did indeed mean Archivist, that's embarassing. For our group Pathfinder has nerfed some of the casters powers, Druids in particular get wildshape nerfed and the Cleric domains seem weaker at higher levels. A Wizard already doesn't have a lot in the way of class features, so my OpFor wouldn't change much between 3.5 and Pathfinder.

Omen of Peace

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1053
  • Wise Madman
Re: Help my improve my Artificer
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2008, 09:43:38 PM »
So much to say...

- Wow, your DM allowed Uncanny Forethought for Archivists and the Divine Bard spell list (Celerity) - sounds like a high-power game.

- Spell Resistance has no variable component - Empowering it changes nothing. You seem to imply there's a houserule there so I'll say no more.

- Why use a Dimensional Anchor and then Disjunction him ?!? The DA will go away...

- Initative: Sign (SC), Moment of Prescience, Shapechange into something with high Dex, Eager+Warning weapon (MIC)

- A dispel might be a good idea... if he doesn't use Spell Turning.

- You can do fun things with Otiluke's Suppressing Field (CM) since your CL should be better than his. Suppress stuff you don't care too much about but that he might use (Conjuration ?).

- How does your DM qualify for UM at level 5 ?!

- All in all, mage duels are kinda hard to predict. If you can, abuse Gate to call a ridiculous epic monster.

- What is your protection against Disjunction ? If he disjuncts you before you disjunct him he's got a huge advantage (insert metamagicked Enervation, for instance).
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

skydragonknight

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3297
Re: Help my improve my Archivist
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2008, 12:58:27 AM »
Step 1: Get Craft Contingent Spell
Step 2: Make a contingency for every nasty scenario you can think of, even if you have to drop a level to do so. Don't buy a Ring of Ring of Freedom of Movement; Make a contingency instead(Archivists can get FoM somehow, right?)
Step 3: If one of the scenarios is the one that happens, you effectively negated his action(s), putting you at a considerable advantage.
Step 4: Profit

Edit: Contingency: My opponent's contingency occurs and is a spell-->Greater Dispel Magic targeted as the spell. ;)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 01:00:21 AM by skydragonknight »
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Negative Zero

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1532
    • Email
Re: Help my improve my Archivist
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2008, 12:58:52 AM »
The thing that annoys me is that his contingency can apparently see into the future to know when there is an AMF that he is going to be inside.

skydragonknight

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3297
Re: Help my improve my Archivist
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2008, 01:05:03 AM »
The thing that annoys me is that his contingency can apparently see into the future to know when there is an AMF that he is going to be inside.

Not usually possible. That would require a very specific contingency such as: an enemy with an AMF field attempts to travel within X distance of me-->response

Once you're subject to the AMF, the contingency fails, as it is suppressed by the AoO. Since AMF doesn't (normally) target offensively, you can't use the contingency: whenever I would be targeted by an AMf-->response.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Negative Zero

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1532
    • Email
Re: Help my improve my Archivist
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2008, 06:08:42 AM »
That's my point. The idea of a contingency that teleports when the guy is 'about to be put in an AMF' is ridiculous, hence me mentioning the future thing. That particular contingency shouldn't work.

Omen of Peace

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1053
  • Wise Madman
Re: Help my improve my Archivist
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2008, 09:50:47 AM »
Edit: Contingency: My opponent's contingency occurs and is a spell-->Greater Dispel Magic targeted as the spell. ;)
A contingent spell targets the bearer or is centered on him (if an area spell). :P
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

juton

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 809
  • Jack of all trades, master of nothing.
    • Email
Re: Help my improve my Archivist
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2008, 11:29:35 AM »
Thanks for all the replies. From the sounds of it my DM is a giant Munchkin (I thought he was mearly a large one), I didn't know he had bent contingency so bad.

I also learned my Opposition has received all 6 stat tomes, has a sword that stores up to 50 spell levels that he can use to fuel Metamagics, and a decent list of other magical gear (ie to much to fit on the standard character sheet). It's ridiculous.

skydragonknight

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3297
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

skydragonknight

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3297
Re: Help my improve my Archivist
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2008, 12:39:52 PM »
He can't do anything about this:
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsPRR.html#rod-of-absorption

Does he have immunity to being stunned?
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsICA.html#dust-of-sneezing-and-chocking

The biggest problem is he's your DM and (he thinks) he knows all the rules. You need to have someone to ref the fight (two refs is better given the obscure rule usage bound to happen) who are also very rules savvy but don't have a side. If these are people the DM knows, don't be shocked if they show favoritism to him or fail to question his knowledge of the rules for vague areas. Ideally you should have two refs: one that he knows exclusively and one that you know exclusively. And expect the majority of the fight to be the judges arguing. :p
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

woodenbandman

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: Help my improve my Archivist
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2008, 12:46:23 PM »
Or just quote rules. Be sure to know the page. I hate to say it, but sometimes there's a DM who has made a plan based on a fuzzy ruling, and they absolutely WILL NOT give it up. You've got to quote rule on that one, and if he says "well, I'm the DM, I say that he's powerful enough to do this", your standard response is "Then why doesn't his character sheet reflect that? He should be way higher level in order to do x, y, and z."

That dust of sneezing and choking is deadly. Stunned for an average of 10-12 rounds is mean. Then comes the sickening and the constitution damage ( I believe that there's a sandstorm spell "dessicate" or "dessicating touch."

And if he's got contingencies that do not work, absolutely call him on that, but first have your contingencies able to do the same thing, only don't tell the DM. If you win without using them, then you get to tear him apart. If you don't then you can still use your contingencies to win.

skydragonknight

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3297
Re: Help my improve my Archivist
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2008, 01:08:25 PM »
That's my point. The idea of a contingency that teleports when the guy is 'about to be put in an AMF' is ridiculous, hence me mentioning the future thing. That particular contingency shouldn't work.

Tell him to read Contingency spell(on which the feat is based). The condition must exist before the contingency goes off. Contingency only sees the present. Not the future. In no where of the spell is it implied that it sees the future. All it has is a kickass reaction time to the present. That's all.

It's not that you can't craft a useful contingency for AMF though;
Quote from: skydragonknight
That would require a very specific contingency such as: an enemy with an AMF field attempts to travel within X distance of me-->response
This would cover someone with an AMF around them travelling to you by foot/fly. In a really high powered campaign you'd include a second one for teleport against Initiate of Mystra and Extraordinary Spell Aim builds.
Oh, and (the obvious one I almost forgot) one for if someone casts AMF within X feet of you.

CCS can take care of a lot of the AMF-scenarios by considering how the AMF gets from them to you.
He has the right tool for the job, but doing a poor job at using it.

---

OP: don't forget that you can use scrolls to get the spells that trigger on contingencies. I'd consider some UMD ranks, a MW tool and Spellsight Spectacles(+5 competence item) from MIC. Also don't forget Spellcraft's synergy bonus.
If you're wondering why go through the trouble? Spells like Ray Deflection(SpC) are a must when up against an arcanist!
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.