Author Topic: Keeping it Core?  (Read 16833 times)

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Guyr Adamantine

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Re: Keeping it Core?
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2008, 11:27:40 PM »
Think about it that way: Core is the part that got the lowest playtesting, as its creator had no experience whatsoever with the system.

JaronK

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Re: Keeping it Core?
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2008, 04:18:13 AM »
Yeah, check out the characters from the playtest (Regdar and the like).  The Druid is wielding a scimitar.  You know why?  Because she had Weapon Focus: Scimitar, and Wild Shape is not good for combat because you can't use your gear. 

...

So yeah, the playtesting in core was a bit shabby.  If anything, it's better to play with no core feats, classes, spells, or items allowed (loss of Power Attack stings, and there's a few other things, but it works).  It can really get players to branch out, and it's a lot more balanced (even the Artificer and Archivist get more balanced when they lose a lot of the sillier spells).

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Re: Keeping it Core?
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2008, 10:00:47 AM »
Only issue is that a lot of the feat trees build off core stuff. Good luck getting any offensive feats if you don't have Power Attack, for example.
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Orion

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Re: Keeping it Core?
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2008, 05:32:23 PM »
I was under the impression that (regardless of the outcome), Core was the only one that was really play-tested, because Hasbro had them chugging out a new expansion book every month?

AndyJames

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Re: Keeping it Core?
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2008, 05:49:19 PM »
They playtested using wrong assumptions. For example, they didn't playtest Wildshape as a combat form, assuming that it was too weak. They did not apply combat scenarios to a lot of things they assume to be non-combat stuff. Like the entire Polymorph line of spells. They underestimated save-or-dies and overestimated blasting spells.

Once the players started blowing things wide open, they gained a clue and actually started playtesting with more accurate assumptions. That is why some of the splats are more balanced than Core material. It actually got pretty OK towards the end. Then they switched to the load of Evercrack that is 4.0.

JaronK

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Re: Keeping it Core?
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2008, 03:03:08 AM »
Only issue is that a lot of the feat trees build off core stuff. Good luck getting any offensive feats if you don't have Power Attack, for example.

Yeah, that's the one hard part about it.  Luckily, the ToB classes don't actually need the Power Attack lines, so it's mostly okay.  Chargers do get hit HARD though.  And obviously trippers aren't great, but again Swordsages can make that happen, and War Hulks can make do as well.

You do have to lose some things, but it does come out much more balanced.

And yeah, Andy is quite right.  They did playtest a lot, but they didn't really understand what they were doing, and it shows.  They were told to look for what was powerful, but all they saw was that damage was powerful, hence the whole overestimation of damage spells while totally ignoring spells like Glitterdust.

And they completely didn't think about stuff outside of combat, thinking combat was the only important thing about balance.  Basically, they playtested for kick in the door play where doing hitpoint damage was all that mattered, without ever really using buffs of any kind.  Just damage the enemies and heal your friends (yes, the Clerics in playtest were healbots).

Interestingly enough, core is TOTALLY balanced if you play this way.  Core only, a Blaster Wizard with a Blaster Sorcerer, a Healbot Cleric, a Druid that never Wildshapes and just heals and blasts, and a grouping of the rest of the classes who focus entirely on just hitting stuff and healing come out completely balanced.  Weak, but balanced, though strength becomes the really important stat (yes, Half Orc Barbarians become the most powerful class!).  That's actually how the game was intended to work at first.  Note that the CR system works a lot better there too.  Of course, the game is pretty darn boring that way, but whatever.  As soon as creative people took hold, they realized that damage wasn't the real priority, healbotting was inefficient and pointless, out of combat power was as important as (or more important than) in combat power, and so on.  And when you do that, Core is just stupidly broken.

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Re: Keeping it Core?
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2008, 09:03:58 PM »
Interestingly enough, core is TOTALLY balanced if you play this way.  Core only, a Blaster Wizard with a Blaster Sorcerer, a Healbot Cleric, a Druid that never Wildshapes and just heals and blasts, and a grouping of the rest of the classes who focus entirely on just hitting stuff and healing come out completely balanced.  Weak, but balanced, though strength becomes the really important stat (yes, Half Orc Barbarians become the most powerful class!).  That's actually how the game was intended to work at first.  Note that the CR system works a lot better there too.  Of course, the game is pretty darn boring that way, but whatever.  As soon as creative people took hold, they realized that damage wasn't the real priority, healbotting was inefficient and pointless, out of combat power was as important as (or more important than) in combat power, and so on.  And when you do that, Core is just stupidly broken.

Wow, I never thought about it quite like that!

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Re: Keeping it Core?
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2008, 07:34:53 AM »
JaronK, you deserve a menkyo-kaiden in G-Fu. Have some more.

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Re: Keeping it Core?
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2008, 03:19:08 PM »
The only reason I'd run a core-only game is if I suddenly decided I only wanted to use three books.  Really, the only two benifits I've seen for a core-only game are:

1) It costs less money

2) It makes character generation faster (less material to look through).

Other than that, it causes more problems than it solves.
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Re: Keeping it Core?
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2008, 03:42:06 PM »
At the same time, one of the core designer admits he followed the "Ivory Tower" paradigm (i.e. if you spend time digging into the system's options your PCs should get more powerful). Divine Power and Righteous Might are not spells you'd give a class that's supposed to be only a healbot.

Your post does remind me of my original 3E campaigns. We didn't even know there was a non-core ! We didn't know the rules that well either.
In one of them I was a wizard with good AC since I somehow stacked some mithral leather armor with mage armor (I know, I know - 2 mistakes already). I had noticed Polymorph (Self at the time) & Enervation but the clouds were way over my head - and Fireball was cool. We had a monk who did crappily (his rolls for ability scores hadn't been that good either), a ranger who did well (he had great Str & Dex) and a paladin who did well too (he had picked up the mounted feats... but often we were in small rooms where he couldn't use them). Not well by CO standards of course. :D

Since enemy tactics were poor Fireball actually worked well, but except for the monk we were roughly balanced (the wizard coming more often on top as levels progressed, also because I could nova and we'd rest afterwards).

I think core is ok... if you haven't seen the rest. It's a one-way street since it's hard to come back once you've tasted the sweet splatbookness.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Keeping it Core?
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2008, 04:43:32 PM »
I've heard that term a lot and know what it means, but where is/was the original Ivory Tower it's named after?
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InnaBinder

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Re: Keeping it Core?
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2008, 12:41:43 AM »
Ivory Tower is from Song of Solomon, originally.  Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory_Tower
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JaronK

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Re: Keeping it Core?
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2008, 04:58:26 AM »
At the same time, one of the core designer admits he followed the "Ivory Tower" paradigm (i.e. if you spend time digging into the system's options your PCs should get more powerful). Divine Power and Righteous Might are not spells you'd give a class that's supposed to be only a healbot.

Well yes, the classes themselves weren't necessarily designed as damage and healing only classes.  The issue is that the playtesters were doing that, and then they'd turn around and complain that the Cleric was weak and boring, for example (which it is if all you do is spam cures).  So the designers would augment the existing spells that let them do other things, but the playtesters weren't trying those things out, because they didn't help them heal.

It was a very strange interaction, but hey, they didn't really know the game yet.  Your game sounds pretty typical, really.  Heck, in one of my first games I was the overpowered one... with my Fighter 3/Cleric 3 Halfdragon Halforc with a Greataxe, in a party with a Human Druid, a Gnome Cleric, a Halfling Rogue, and some Half Elf Ranger thingy.  The Ranger, by the way, was the second most powerful.  The Druid was using some ball of flame spell to deal damage, the Cleric just healed, and I don't think the Rogue did anything except steal stuff from the party.

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Re: Keeping it Core?
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2008, 02:24:36 AM »
In the past, I've ruled that players go core-only when running a module, so as to cut down on the power creep from splatbooks that happens which the module's designers couldn't anticipate.  Now I'm much more open about allowing non-core material, though I still mistrust homebrew and dragon magazine material (though with that said, I love many of the homebrew sublime way classes). 

I think with all books allowed, what usually happens is that overall party power goes up, but there isn't such a disparity in power.  I just hate it when people laugh off the tome of battle or PHBII classes as over-powered, when the most powerful classes are all in the PHB.  Well, except the artificer anyhow.

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Re: Keeping it Core?
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2008, 11:16:06 PM »
For me, I've had several newcomers in the past two years. Out of all of the players in my group, the only two who can really be considered serious optimizers are (aside from myself, obviously, as I am a whole new ball-park for this particular group) my best friend who has been playing as long as I have, and someone who has been playing DnD since he was 3.

The only reason my best friend is a good optimizer is he's had as much experience as I have when it comes to this system, and he has mad tinkering skills from playing games like Armored Core and .Hack (where poor optimization can cause property damage). The only reason my other friend is a good optimizer is because I practically force-fed him his first dose of ToB. After that, he refuses to play anything less than a Devoted Spirit/White Raven Crusader that dips into Swordsage for two levels with Mithral Breastplate and Knowledge Devotion (and Educated).

All of the others ones see their power level, flip out, and then realize that they need to be at the same level in order to survive or contribute to the game (one of them is having problems understanding this, and will not get it for some time due to his attitude). It got to the point where I had to step in and my two friends had to reel back their lines a bit in order to bring the others up to speed.

Note that my friends never use Core only unless they are going for a specific build. My best friend is in love with Warlocks and Swordsages (and Shadowcasters, but he's realized that they are very poorly designed), and the other one can't get his face out of the Bo9S/Complete Champion/Complete Divine long enough to look at what can really be done (he's played a Wizard with some talent, however). It took a Druid with Fleshraker and Dragon Shape just to bring one of our other players up to the same tactical level as those two, and another needed to be shown just how awesome Psions can be before he got out of the "Samurai is awesome because of katanas being awesome" mind set (which never worked, seeing as the Crusader player always managed to trounce him whenever he acted out of line.

The last player is my brother. We don't talk about him.


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Re: Keeping it Core?
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2008, 01:31:42 AM »
For me, I've had several newcomers in the past two years. Out of all of the players in my group, the only two who can really be considered serious optimizers are (aside from myself, obviously, as I am a whole new ball-park for this particular group) my best friend who has been playing as long as I have, and someone who has been playing DnD since he was 3.

The only reason my best friend is a good optimizer is he's had as much experience as I have when it comes to this system, and he has mad tinkering skills from playing games like Armored Core and .Hack (where poor optimization can cause property damage). The only reason my other friend is a good optimizer is because I practically force-fed him his first dose of ToB. After that, he refuses to play anything less than a Devoted Spirit/White Raven Crusader that dips into Swordsage for two levels with Mithral Breastplate and Knowledge Devotion (and Educated).

All of the others ones see their power level, flip out, and then realize that they need to be at the same level in order to survive or contribute to the game (one of them is having problems understanding this, and will not get it for some time due to his attitude). It got to the point where I had to step in and my two friends had to reel back their lines a bit in order to bring the others up to speed.

Note that my friends never use Core only unless they are going for a specific build. My best friend is in love with Warlocks and Swordsages (and Shadowcasters, but he's realized that they are very poorly designed), and the other one can't get his face out of the Bo9S/Complete Champion/Complete Divine long enough to look at what can really be done (he's played a Wizard with some talent, however). It took a Druid with Fleshraker and Dragon Shape just to bring one of our other players up to the same tactical level as those two, and another needed to be shown just how awesome Psions can be before he got out of the "Samurai is awesome because of katanas being awesome" mind set (which never worked, seeing as the Crusader player always managed to trounce him whenever he acted out of line.

The last player is my brother. We don't talk about him.
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Orion

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Re: Keeping it Core?
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2008, 05:58:40 PM »
I realise it's not the focus of this community, but y'all do realise that there are lots and lots of people who don't play RPGs just for the sake of optimisation, right? The reason you (potentially) don't think they exist is because the on-line community around RPGs, specifically d20 products, long ago was dominated by optimisers. Non-optimisers don't bother posting in places like this (I'm a rare example) because they realise pretty quickly that they are speaking a different language (almost literally, considering your use of two- and three-letter acronyms). So when you say you're "force feeding" optimisation and "bringing people up to speed," you're actually just talking about making people play the way you like to play. It's not educating them. It's not making them "better" players. It's a stylistic preference. Nothing more.

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Re: Keeping it Core?
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2008, 06:07:11 PM »
The last player is my brother. We don't talk about him.
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Re: Keeping it Core?
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2008, 06:38:46 PM »
Doesn't matter if they know how to optimize or not. I've seen plenty of new players figure out on their own Conjuration kicks ass, Evocation sucks a fat one, and healbots are a waste of time. So you got casual new players stumbling onto things like God wizards, CoDzilla, and so forth by pure accident. On the other end... Fighter boy probably thinks rapiers are cool or some shit. Or maybe sword and board. Or some other archetype famous in the fantasy world but unworkable in D&D (at least in core).
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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Omen of Peace

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Re: Keeping it Core?
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2008, 07:32:30 PM »
I realise it's not the focus of this community, but y'all do realise that there are lots and lots of people who don't play RPGs just for the sake of optimisation, right?
I don't really know anyone who plays for the sake of optimization. CharOp is definitely a fun component of the game for us but it happens mostly at character creation time. After that, you have RP, tactics & simply the company you're in to keep you entertained.
Just because we don't talk much about RP & co doesn't mean it's absent from our games (I like double negations - sue me. I barely stopped short of a triple one. ;)).

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So when you say you're "force feeding" optimisation and "bringing people up to speed," you're actually just talking about making people play the way you like to play. It's not educating them. It's not making them "better" players. It's a stylistic preference. Nothing more.
I do think we're educating people but I certainly agree we don't make them better. It's eye-opening to realize how/why the Fighter is inferior to other classes but it can become a downside if you feel you won't have fun playing one like you did before.
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