Keeping it Core?

[MilwaukeeJoe]

Just curious, anyone else on this board like me.... when you run D&D 3.5 you stick to the basic 3 core books and rarely go to the other ones unless a player begs?

Just wonderin',
MilwaukeeJoe

[ZeroSum]

The sourcebook rule for the game I'm running is: Anything d20 that I can get my hands on once I've checked it over.

I vetoed flaws but allowed a completely alternate rules system for item creation and I'm using wealth instead of gp.  (And mixing d20 Modern with D&D 3.5 - We have a Wargun in the group as a result.)

However, my group is optimization light so the worst any of them have come up with is Spell Thematics plus Evoker variant from UA giving +2 CL to one Evocation per spell level.

[Sunic_Flames]

Never core only (I like my players having more valid options than Cleric, Druid, Wizard, and maybe Bard). As a player myself, I won't touch core only because I want more than 3 (maybe 4) options ever.

[BowenSilverclaw]

Never core only (I like my players having more valid options than Cleric, Druid, Wizard, and maybe Bard). As a player myself, I won't touch core only because I want more than 3 (maybe 4) options ever.

Plus Fucking One 

[woodenbandman]

The core-only argument seems rather valid until one realizes that the power balance is completely nonexistant in core. There's casters, and there's noncasters. The only way to achieve a shred of balance in between those two types is to allow, nay, mandate, that viable alternatives such as Tome of Battle be allowed.

[MilwaukeeJoe]

Never core only (I like my players having more valid options than Cleric, Druid, Wizard, and maybe Bard). As a player myself, I won't touch core only because I want more than 3 (maybe 4) options ever.

You mean like Rogue and Sorcerer... perhaps Barbarian and Paladin? That's four more options! Double even! 

[Sunic_Flames]

Never core only (I like my players having more valid options than Cleric, Druid, Wizard, and maybe Bard). As a player myself, I won't touch core only because I want more than 3 (maybe 4) options ever.

You mean like Rogue and Sorcerer... perhaps Barbarian and Paladin? That's four more options! Double even! 

Sorcerers are just weaker Wizards. Rogues don't qualify without non core stuff. Same with Barbarians. Paladins don't count at all, unless that's what you want to call your LG Cleric or Crusader.

[MilwaukeeJoe]

Sorcerers are just weaker Wizards. Rogues don't qualify without non core stuff. Same with Barbarians. Paladins don't count at all, unless that's what you want to call your LG Cleric or Crusader.

I do have to admit that in the Gencon games I ran, core only 3.5... the rogue just didn't seem to have the damage output like the other classes.

[Sunic_Flames]

Sorcerers are just weaker Wizards. Rogues don't qualify without non core stuff. Same with Barbarians. Paladins don't count at all, unless that's what you want to call your LG Cleric or Crusader.

I do have to admit that in the Gencon games I ran, core only 3.5... the rogue just didn't seem to have the damage output like the other classes.

The main issue is Rogues are just flat out negated by a very long list of things. To counter the counters, you need non core material. Not having 5 types auto negate you is a good start (see MIC). Making TWF suck less also helps (see PTWF, which Rogues can take at level 10 by the RAW). Savvy Rogue also is necessary to deal with those individual immunes (fortification).

[MilwaukeeJoe]

The main issue is Rogues are just flat out negated by a very long list of things. To counter the counters, you need non core material. Not having 5 types auto negate you is a good start (see MIC). Making TWF suck less also helps (see PTWF, which Rogues can take at level 10 by the RAW). Savvy Rogue also is necessary to deal with those individual immunes (fortification).

So how many books would I need to buy to get all that?

I did house rule a few things to make it more fun. I allowed natural 20 rolls to crit anything, and rogues to sneak attack in those situations even if they would normally be immune. It helped.

[Sunic_Flames]

The main issue is Rogues are just flat out negated by a very long list of things. To counter the counters, you need non core material. Not having 5 types auto negate you is a good start (see MIC). Making TWF suck less also helps (see PTWF, which Rogues can take at level 10 by the RAW). Savvy Rogue also is necessary to deal with those individual immunes (fortification).

So how many books would I need to buy to get all that?

I did house rule a few things to make it more fun. I allowed natural 20 rolls to crit anything, and rogues to sneak attack in those situations even if they would normally be immune. It helped.

Perfect Two Weapon Fighting is in the SRD in the Epic section. So that leaves... 2. Magic Item Compendium, Complete Scoundrel. First gets you the items you need, second gets you the ability to do crippling strikes as per that class ability even against immunes. Also, other benefits. It really does help that balance and viability thing if you have the MIC and all of the Complete series. Except Psionic, because it is the practical demonstration of what critical fumble house rules look like in action. Also, PHB 2.

[MilwaukeeJoe]

Thanks for the advice. I'll keep an eye out for those at half-price bookstores.

Otherwise, I'm going 4E... so it can wait for a while.

[Sunic_Flames]

Thanks for the advice. I'll keep an eye out for those at half-price bookstores.

Otherwise, I'm going 4E... so it can wait for a while.

4.0 = everyone is a 3.5 Fighter. Including the enemies.

[MilwaukeeJoe]

4.0 = everyone is a 3.5 Fighter. Including the enemies.

That's an interesting take on it, hadn't heard that one before. But, if you want to discuss further, let's take it to the 4E board.

Later,
MilwaukeeJoe

[woodenbandman]

If you do stay in core, you shouldn't let people play noncasters, otherwise it will suck all around.

[MilwaukeeJoe]

If you do stay in core, you shouldn't let people play noncasters, otherwise it will suck all around.

What about core "Pathfinder RPG"? Is that better balanced for the classes?
MilwaukeeJoe

[bkdubs123]

Not. At. All.

Okay, sort of, a little bit, but really the difference is pretty negligible. The non-spellcasters still suck. Fighters are still the worst of the worst. Clerics and Wizards took a little hit to some of their spells, but they still rock everything's socks off.

[Sunic_Flames]

If you do stay in core, you shouldn't let people play noncasters, otherwise it will suck all around.

What about core "Pathfinder RPG"? Is that better balanced for the classes?
MilwaukeeJoe

Core Pathfinder is all about casters are even better, and everyone else is even worse. Other highlights include builds rejected from the WotC homebrew forum such as the many failed Fighter fixes which the PF Fighter exactly resembles, removing the only tricks said Fighter had while still delusionally thinking said class has been buffed, and giving casters random new things like free Quicken Spells while claiming they are now weaker. Only part of casters that got nerfed is the TO level material that doesn't get allowed anyways. In other words, they did nothing anyone with an IQ over 45 could not do.

Not to mention even if you do go outside of core to get the things you must have to be relevant, the core itself is fucked with so you don't have any tricks anyways. PA nerf, Improved Trip nerf. Invalidates the only two builds worth considering even if you have the non core material to make them.

[Soda]

My mind was made up a while ago by that thread about promoting balance by allowing everything. The strong core classes don't need any help. The weak ones can only get stronger with more options. Someone should find that thread, I don't remember the name.

[AndyJames]

Just curious, anyone else on this board like me.... when you run D&D 3.5 you stick to the basic 3 core books and rarely go to the other ones unless a player begs?

Just wonderin',
MilwaukeeJoe

Problem with that is that the melee classes are pretty much boned in a Core only environment. Most of the overpowered caster stuff is in Core.

Examples include things like Gate, Shapechange, Polymorph, Natural Spells, etc. These are all Core.