Telflamm Shadowlord via Jaunter?

[Tsabrak]

Greetings all-

I was reading through Expedition to the Demonweb Pits this morning and realized that the Jaunter PRC would make an awesome entrance class into the Telflamm Shadowlord...and likely do it much more quickly than the previous methods I've seen.  Does anyone have some thoughts as to how we could optimize this entrance PrC and maybe get some more, or at least earlier, Pounce love?

Your Brilliance is anticipated!

Tsabrak

[Dictum Mortuum]

Well, the two classes mix very good together. They have the same requirement feats (dodge, mobility, spring attack) and have an awesome synergy.
The only way to get +2d6 sneak attack (without multiclassing that is) is through tome of battle (assassin's stance). The problem with jaunter is that it requires spring attack, which in turn requires +4 BAB.

Anyway - there is an alternate way if you have access to ToB. Swordsage. He gets some shadow hand maneuvers that are [teleportation] and work with shadow pounce. He gets the requirement feats and of course adaptive style to replenish his maneuvers. So you can use shadow blink (swift), shadow jaunt (standard) and shadow stride (move) in a round to full attack three times, next round adaptive style with shadow blink optional and then shadow jaunt/shadow stride with shadow blink if you haven't used it in the previous round

[InnaBinder]

This build is from Xoraxx on another forum:

[skydragonknight]

This build is from Xoraxx on another forum:

(Half-Drow) Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 2/ Jaunter 4/ Teflammar Shadowlord 6/ Dread Commando 5
Hit-and-Run ACF
1 Dodge, Weapon Finesse (Swashbuckler Bonus)
3 Mobility
4 Spring Attack
5 Blind-Fight
6 Martial Studie (Shadow Jaunt)

12 Shadowblade
15 Two Weapon Fighting
18 Craven
*Dual wield Manyfang Daggers.

In the end you get DEX to damage twice and INT to damage once, +2d6+20 Sneak Attack, 3d6 Sudden Strike, BAB 17. (all of wich except 5d6 is multiplied by 4) You also have four ways to activate Shadowpounce.

[InnaBinder]

I take it the "Sweet Spot" for Jaunter is Jaunter 4?

Jaunter is 4 levels long.

[skydragonknight]

I take it the "Sweet Spot" for Jaunter is Jaunter 4?

Jaunter is 4 levels long.

Literally 4 levels long or in the same sense that Warshaper and Fatespinner are 4 levels long? 4 levels long is pretty rare but considering the drow demonbinder class is what...6 levels(?), I'll choose not to make my Will Save to disbelieve you.

[skydragonknight]

I take it the "Sweet Spot" for Jaunter is Jaunter 4?

Jaunter is 4 levels long.

Literally 4 levels long or in the same sense that Warshaper and Fatespinner are 4 levels long? 4 levels long is pretty rare but considering the drow demonbinder class (in the same book, I think-I'm not a fan of spiders ) is what...6 levels(?), I'll choose not to make my Will Save to disbelieve you.

[InnaBinder]

I take it the "Sweet Spot" for Jaunter is Jaunter 4?

Jaunter is 4 levels long.

Literally 4 levels long or in the same sense that Warshaper and Fatespinner are 4 levels long? 4 levels long is pretty rare but considering the drow demonbinder class (in the same book, I think-I'm not a fan of spiders ) is what...6 levels(?), I'll choose not to make my Will Save to disbelieve you.

The Jaunter is a PrC from "Expedition to the Demonweb Pits" .... it is a Short 4 level PrC that has some very nice Transport Abilities, and the important thing is...they are Dexterity Based. the Jaunter Prc gives the Following Spell-like Abilities:

[Tsabrak]

I hadn't really looked into the ToB as an option, so if it were to be allowed it seems like a pretty nice choice.

What about a Scout based build?  Isn't there a feat where rogue and scout stack?  I know there's the scout + ranger one...

Of course, I guess the important question would be if Dim Door'ing would activate Skirmish or not...

[skydragonknight]

Of course, I guess the important question would be if Dim Door'ing would activate Skirmish or not...

Sadly under the realm of "check with your DM".

Existing rulings/clarifications say movement from riding a horse doesn't count for skirmish, as "skirmish requires you to move using your own movement rate" or something like that. By a similar argument, you can probably rule out teleportation with that kind logic.

But as these are clarifications of rules and not the rules themselves, they are not hard and set in stone, and will vary from DM to DM. While a strong percentage of the Min-Max boards tend to be anti-sage/FAQ/Custserv(see my sig), the reality is that a lot of DMs will use that advice in their games because it (usually) makes the game less confusing--and that's their right as DM.

Moral of the story: build it, then build a backup plan if they say "no".

[fil kearney]

wouldn't fighter4/jaunter4/swordsage1/TSL4/swordsage+2/x5 be more effective?

Feats:
1 dodge, educated
2 mobility
3 TWF
4 spring attack
6 blind fight
9 adaptive style (shadow jaunt + assassin's stance from swordsage1)
12 QSLA: benign transposition
15 craven (shadow stride from swordsage3)
18 open

shadowblink would be a huge investment of swordsage levels, which isn't worth it, IMO... but achievable at level 19.
QSLA is a much better solution for swift tports.. BT = 3 swift pounces per day-- I'm not sure how caster level is determined in a Jaunter.. if it's by character level, this is good.
on top of this is the shadow jaunt, stride, and shadowjump abilities already available.  
I suppose QSLA for ddor can be taken at 18... but ddoor leaves you stunned.  not good when adjacent to oponent.

I'd probably go warblade5 for the end... that's 4th - 6th level maneuvers (though stances are worthless due to TSL) not bad to use along with a shadowpounce or two:
pounce, maneuver, pounce
pounce, pounce, pounce
(recover or (maneuver, pounce)), pounce
etc.

[Tsabrak]

 
I suppose QSLA for ddor can be taken at 18... but ddoor leaves you stunned.  not good when adjacent to oponent.

Don't forget that TSL shadow pounce negates the ddoor stunning.  That's much of the point!

What do you all think of the merits of adding the reserve feat from CM that let's you Ddoor at will?  The only trick there is the need for 4th level casting.

I'm going to work on this a bit more over the next while and I'll present a build if I run into something a little fresher than the Swordsage option.

Thanks all-

[ZeroSum]

Note: It's not stunned - it's ending your turn.  "Stun" has a specific meaning that includes an AC penalty and dropping held items.

[carnivore]

for Shadowlord .... try this:

Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 1/Jaunter 4/Shadowlord 6/ Horizon Walker 6

or

Ranger 1/Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 1/Jaunter 4/Shadowlord 5/ Horizon Walker 6
thus you get lots of skills, and use Horizon Walker for DD(unlimited Quantity) for Shadowpouncing, and Jaunter for long Range Teleport/Tactical Transposition



heres one i did a while back:

Optimizing the Jaunter:

The Jaunter is a PrC from "Expedition to the Demonweb Pits" .... it is a Short 4 level PrC that has some very nice Transport Abilities, and the important thing is...they are Dexterity Based. the Jaunter Prc gives the Following Spell-like Abilities:

Benign Transposition
Baleful Transposition
Dimension Door
Teleport
Freedom of Movement
PlaneShift

each Ability uses Travel power uses... total uses/day = Class lvl+ Dex mod
he Also gains +10' to land speed. To make the most of these facts... lets add some other Dex Based Prc and Classes... and See what we get.



so to make the most of it .... i give you:

The Transporter

Fire Elf(+2 Dex,+2 Int,-2 Con,-2 Cha)

Ranger 2((Substitution lvl 1) Trapfinding Variant)/ Monk(Cobra Strike Variant) 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Swordsage 2/ Crusader 2/ Champion of Corellon 2/ Jaunter 4/ Shadow Dancer 2/ Exotic Weapon Master 1

Ranger((Elf Substitution lvl 1) Trapfinding Variant) 1.... looses track, Gains Trapfinding and Disable Device is Class Skill, also Sub lvl gives 8 Skill points!!!!!.... @ 1st level he gets 44 skill points!!!


Attributes:
32 point buy

20 Str(base 14 +6 Belt)
32 Dex(base 14 +2 Racial +5 lvls+5 Inherent+6 Belt)
18 Con(base 14 -2 racial+6 Belt)
26 Int(base 14 +2 Racial +4 inherent+6 Belt)
20 Wis(base 14 +6 Belt)
14 Cha(base 10 -2 racial +6 Belt)



Feats:
2 Wpn Fighting(ranger bonus)
Weapon Finnesse(Swashbuckler bonus)
Dodge(monk bonus)
Mobility(monk bonus)
Spring Attack(CoC bonus)

1st lvl Combat reflexes
3rd lvl Improved Weapon Familiarity
6th lvl Combat Expertise
9th lvl Mounted Combat
12th lvl Shadow Blade
15th lvl Weapon Focus(Lightblade)
18th lvl Robilars Gambit

Exotic Weapon Stunt:
Twin Exotic Weapon FightingMartial Manuvers:
Swordsage ... 11th lvl Initiator...6th lvl manuvers
Crusader ...... 11th lvl initiator ... 6th lvl manuvers
Also he has Access to a few Shadow Hand manuvers and other Manuvers(Devoted Spirit,White Raven,etc...)... but Shadow Hand also have some Quick Teleport abilities, and great combat manuvers and Stances. i havent even looked into what would be best.... feel free to suggest some.

What this Build gives:
Dex to Attack
2x Dex to Damage(CoC 2, and Shadow Blade feat... using Lightblade(Shortsword)
Str to Damage
Int to Damage
Wis to AC
Dex to AC

BAB +16
Attack bonus=BAB +16 +11 Dex +5 Enhancement +1 Haste -1 2 Wpn Fight= +32
Full Attack with 2 weapon Fighting Improved 2 weapon Fighting and Speed Weapon =
+32/+32/+27/+22/+17 and +32/+27 and 11 AoO @+32 Robilars Gambit

basically he gets 14 Attacks @ +32 and +27/+27/+22/+17 ... all doing Average +47 Damage each Hit .... if all hit he does 846 Damage/round..not too bad for a 2 Weapon Finnesse fighter who doesnt need Power Attack, and he heals 18d6 per round if all hit ..... this doesnt even take into consideration Martial Manuvers from Swordsage or Crusader

+35 to Damage without counting Weapon Enhancements or anything other than Attributes, total Weapon Damage= +35+ 5 enhancement +1d6 Vampiric +1d6 Weapon= Average +47 Damage each Hit

weapons:

212000gp(+/-)2 swords =
1) +1(+5 GMW) Keen Vampiric Speed with Vanishing Kaorti resin Elven Lightblade 1d6(15-20/x4)
2)+1(+5 GMW) Keen Vampiric Eager Transmuting with Vanishing Kaorti resin Elven Lightblade 1d6(15-20/x4)

due to some feeling that Kaorti resin is cheesy... just ignore that part if you want... make them Adamantine

200000gp +6 belt of magnificense
238770gp 9 points Inherent Bonuses(Wishes cast by 17th lvl Wiz)
10000gp Ring of Avoidance 3/day +20 Deflection AC 1 round
6000gp Ring of Anticipation
43200gp 2x Tooth of Dahlver Nar(Leraje.... cast greater magic weapon @20th Caster level... to give Each Sword +5 Enhancement, that lasts 20 hours)
8000gp Gloves of the Balanced Hand .... give Imp 2 Weapon Fighting
12000gp Boots of Speed

here is a little more about the Prestige Class:
[spoiler]

Jaunter

HD= d8

Prereqs:
Knowledge(the Planes) 4
feats: Dodge,Mobility,Spring Attack
special:must have visited at least 2 other planes, not including your home plane


Skills: ... 4+Int/ Class lvl:

Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Concentration, Escape Artist, Hide, Knowledge(The Planes), Listen, Move Silent, Speak Language, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble

Medium BAB

Saves: Good Ref, Poor Will,Fort

class Abilities:
1st lvl .... Travel Power.... # of Uses = Class lvl+Dex mod, gain +1AC as long as you have one use left

Benign transposition: cost 1 Travel Power use, 100' range

2nd lvl .... +10' Land Speed(med Armor or less, no hvy load)

Baleful Transposition: cost 1 Travel Power use

3rd lvl ..... Dimension Door : 30'/class lvl/day, min 10' increments

Teleport: cost 2 Travel Power uses

4th lvl ... Freedom of Movement: 8 rounds/day as a Swift action

Plane Shift: cost 2 Travel Power uses


personally i dont like Dimension Door.... under normal circumstances, you cant do anything after you jump.... but with the feat "Sun School"... it opens up many Possibilities..... the Inclusion of Telflamar Shadowlord or Crinti Maurader ..allow Full Attack posibilities also... but with a retributive Attacker, you dont need to Pounce... just DD/Teleport over to the target , make one attack, and wait for them to attack you back... then you open up a can of Wupass on them;)
[/spoiler]

i will explain why i used the classes as i did:

Ranger 2((Substitution lvl 1) Trapfinding Variant) ...... this is just too good, Skill points as Rogue, Trapfinding as Rogue,but with Full BAB and Better Saves,better HD ..... no downside,No Track, Must be Elf..and i love Elves

Monk(Cobra Strike Variant) 2 ..... this is also great, as it provides some of the Feats needed for :
Jaunter
Shadow Dancer
Champion of Corellon
als it gives Evasion, Imp Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows


Swashbuckler 3 ..... excellent Dip, gives Weapon Finnesse, and Int to Damage with Finnessable Weapons(which is very important later). this also makes up for the low damage output at low levels


Swordsage 2/ Crusader 2.... actually here there is almost no wrong way to do this... it can be almost any combination of Martial Adept classes. but need to have xxx 2/ xxx 2 , to avoid Multi-class penalties...unless you play 1/2 Elf..but then you cant take the Ranger Sub lvl. Sowrdsage is a must to get access to Shadow Hand manuvers, and Shadow Blade(for use with Lightblade(Shortsword)), this is a Must as it greatly Increases the Damage output.... Crusader is nice for the healing manuvers...Warblade also is nice

Champion of Corellon 2 ... an excellent PrC for Finnesse fighters, also a Must for the Dex to Damage@ 2nd lvl. since this only applies to a Small Specific Group of Weapons. it is important to pick the one that will get the most benifit. CoC also gives "Lay on the Hands", for healing, and VERY important, a bonus Feat: Spring Attack

Jaunter 4 ..... the is the Premier Class we are trying to get to... and must Take ALL levels in it.

Shadow Dancer 2..... since we already have the Prereqs... this is a great class that works both Thematicly and Mechanically with the Build. you gain many things:

Hide in Plain Sight ..... Awesome!!!
Evasion..... Improved Evasion since you already have it from monk
Uncanny Dodge ... since this is a Dex based Build, this prevents you from losing you most important asset
Darkvisoin .... this is a Great thing since Elves dont have it normally(except Drow)


Exotic Weapon Master 1 ...... seeing as how we already have the prereqs...this allows us to benifit even more from 2 weapon Fighting... and it specificlly lists light Exotic Weapons


the Majority of the build works great without any Alteration... but there are several places to adjust to gain other things:

Ranger 2((Substitution lvl 1) Trapfinding Variant).... very nice but not entirely needed..could be any Full BAB class.... but it works better with one that gives some Bonus Feats: Fighter, Ranger both work good, Psychic Warrior also can Work but need to be careful about the BAB to get +16@20th

Monk(Cobra Strike Variant) 2....... this gives so much, cant do without it
Swashbuckler 3 ....................... this also is the same
Swordsage 2 ...........................need Full BAB Class or PrC here
Crusader 2 ..............................need Full BAB Class or PrC here
Champion of Corellon 2............... cant do without, Dex to Damage and Bonus Feat, are too nice
Jaunter 4 ..........................Main Class
Shadow Dancer 2.................could be replaced with Swordsage levels
Exotic Weapon Master 1....... could be replaced with any Full BAB Class or PrC

a very nice thing about this build is that it doe NOT rely in Any way on Power Attack(which i dont car for at all). it does not reduce your chances to Hit(except by -1 2 Wpn Fight)... thus you have the maximum possibility of Success when attacking...... Power Attack Lowers you probability of Success with Each Attack roll(IMHO, it is not worth it) . When things Like Wraith Strike are figured in..... this Finness build is even more effective at Combating Higher AC opponents.

as for using Sun School:

try these:

Remove :
Shadow Dancer and Exotic Weapon Master

ADD
Fighter 2 and Master of the Nine 1

you could add: Sun School and Adaptive Style... gain more versatility in Combat... less versatility out of combat



if you went 1/2 Elf.... you could go with more Swordsage... like this:

Ranger 2/ Monk 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Swordsage 6/ CoC 2/ Jaunter 4/ Exotic Weapon master 1


the Jaunter could even be entered @ 5th lvl... earlier than most other PrCs...like this:

ANY RACE
Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 1/ Jaunter 4..... now you have a very Playable Finnesse fighter with GREAT Movement abilities that Mages/ Clerics/ Druids/ Psions dont even have.


there are several other ways to get into it early:

Full BAB 3/ Fighter 1 to get Spring attack

in fact Fighter 4 could Do it all by itself

here is a Fun Mage Killer build:

Human

Marshal 1/ Monk(Cobra Strike) 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Jordain Vizer 5/ Jaunter 4/ Witch Hunter 5


BAB+16

feats:
Skill Focus(Diplomacy)(marshal bonus)
Dodge(monk bonus)
Mobility(monk bonus)
Weapon Finnesse(Swashbuckler bonus)
Iron Will(human Bonus)

1st lvl Spell Wise
3rd lvl Combat Reflexes
6th lvl Spring Attack
9th lvl Quick Reconoiter
12th lvl Knowledge Devotion
15th lvl Mageslayer
18th lvl Robilars Gambit

he also gets:
lots of Skills
Evasion
Mettle
SR 15+Cha
Arcane Nondetection


the great thing is....... it works well without any items, or Weapons.... he can get to his target, neutralize the Target , and get away...

it could work so well as a VOP build also

[skydragonknight]

wouldn't fighter4/jaunter4/swordsage1/TSL4/swordsage+2/x5 be more effective?

Is shadow pounce at TSL 4? Ha. I guessed that the earlier builds stopped after Shadow Pounce but I guess I was wrong. That's what I get for posting away from books.
I also don't have Drow of the Underdark, so I wasn't sure if there was a skill requirement on Jaunter. The Swordsage 3/Fighter 2 entry had me guessing there was skill requirements or some other limitation that prevents you from entering it before 6th level like 90% of all PrCs.

Given more accurate information: Yes, the 2 levels are better used for Swordsage. In particular: ...TSL4/X2/Swordsage+1/X+3/Swordsage+1 yields Shadow Stride and Shadow Blink to give you 1/encounter teleports with your move and swift actions.

[carnivore]

Prereqs:
Knowledge(the Planes) 4
feats: Dodge,Mobility,Spring Attack
special:must have visited at least 2 other planes, not including your home plane


 

[skydragonknight]

Prereqs:
Knowledge(the Planes) 4
feats: Dodge,Mobility,Spring Attack
special:must have visited at least 2 other planes, not including your home plane


 

Ah, I see. Thanks carnivore. To get into the class at 5th you'd need the Education feat, the Rilkan race or any of 100 equivalents...is there a Full BAB class with Knowledge(the Planes)?

...not Hexblade...Duskblade and that's it. And the class has no Synergy...and doesn't even have the hide and move silently class skills you want to pick up for shadowlord. We've been neglecting those...replace every "Fighter 4" with "Ranger 2/Fighter 2". You get TWF early.

Hmm...*goes digging through ACFs and sub levels for know(planes)*
Edit:

Sub levels:
4 levels ranger...no. 4 levels fighter...loses bonus feat...no. 2 levels paladin(CoV:Tyr)...no.
ACFs/variants:
Planar Ranger(UA)...yes!

Conclusion:
Planar Ranger 2/Hit-and-run Fighter 2/Swordsage 1/Jaunter 4 or Planar Ranger 2/Hit-and-run Fighter 2/Jaunter 4/Swordsage 1 are the best prefixes for Shadowlord as far as getting the skill requirements. Of the 10 ranks of hide and move silently, Ranger and Swordsage easily give you 8 ranks of each and you can buy the 4 ranks of know(planes) at 1st level with Ranger. During the 4 Jaunter levels, just buy the remaining Hide and Move Silently ranks. Piece of cake.

now to see if we can make the feats work:

Dex-based build:
Human Planar Ranger 2/Hit-and-run Fighter 2/Swordsage 1/Jaunter 4:
R1 Track, dodge, weapon finesse
R2 TWF
3 blind-fight
F1 mobility
F2 spring attack
6 Shadow Blade
9 Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance
12 Craven or Adaptive Style(playstyle)
15 Craven or Adaptive Style(whichever was not picked before)
18 open

Requires human, but you get the human feat back at the very end. I prefer the Swordsage earlier to get Shadowblade early.

Planar Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Jaunter 4/Swordsage 1 is equally viable if you're aiming for different feats or want better maneuvers in the long run, but bear in mind that the stance from Swordsage 1 HAS to be a 1st-level stance, so you must take Martial Stance at 9th no matter when you take the Swordsage level.

[skydragonknight]

gah. double post again

[carnivore]

dont forget the feat: Knowledge Devotion.... it also gives a single Knowledge Skill as a Class skill.... in addition to being a great feat to have

 

[fil kearney]

The education feat would work as well.
jaunter gives hide and ms as skills as well.

though planar ranger is sexier if allowed.