Sharpening a ToB build to actually kill mages (Warblade/CustomOccultSlayer)

[SagremorTheUnruly]

Hi. I am a sometime lurker from the WoTC CO boards. I figured you folks could use more topics here. I'm sorry if this is a long post... I've been working on this on my own for some time indeed. Not looking for any quick responses here.

I have some pretty powerful custom abilities and great stat rolls, but I trust you guys know better than to roll your eyes and say I don't need any help. My goal is to fight casters with 9th level spells competently. I need all the damn help I can get, and I know my custom abilities will only take me so far.

This is a character who is already being played in an IRL campaign I really enjoy. Certain elements of this build cannot be modified; I am already at level 6, and I am only allowed a single prestige class I cannot deviate from for RP reasons (and I would not really want to, since the DM has allowed me to make up a fairly awesome custom ability for Occult Slayer).

Potentially any published WoTC stuff is on the table (no Dragon magazine), but is subject to DM approval. My DM is pretty great but doesn't really understand the sheer insanity casters can achieve, but I've shown her and her co-DM hubby apparently knows.

My char is in a party of 6. He is de-facto party leader mostly due to force of personality and a keen tactical mind. His teammates are a Druid, a NG Cleric, a warmage, a swordsage, and a rogue/wizard (more wiz than rogue, will eventually have 9th level casting).  The casters all heed his advice for what spells to prepare and when to use them--he's got quite a bit of crossclass ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana to justify an extensive knowledge of spells. Still, I want to be good without their help.

So yeah. Here's the build I got so far. I'm looking for ways to improve it... my goal is to actually be a threat to a high level caster without having any damn caster levels myself.

I am currently at level 6 and have already got everything up to that point. Everything beyond level 6 can be changed, except the fact that I am taking Occult Slayer.

Race: Human
Base Ability Scores: Str 18, Dex 21 (yes, Dex 21; it was a DM gift I never even asked for), Con 18, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 12
I rolled those stats with 4d6 drop lowest (Dex was 16). No lie. You can see why I want this char to be great, since I will never again get rolls like that.

Class and feat progression
Lv1: Warblade 1 (Lv1: Weapon Focus, Human: Power Attack)
Lv2: Warblade 2
Lv3: Warblade 3 (Lv3: Mage Slayer)
Lv4: Warblade 4
Lv5: Warblade 5 (Warblade 5: Improved Init)
Lv6: Warblade 6 (Lv6: Weapon Specialization)
Lv7: Occult Slayer 1
Lv8: Occult Slayer 2
Lv9: Occult Slayer 3 (Lv9: Slashing Wpn Mastery) (I get a custom ability here)
L10: Occult Slayer 4 (I get another custom ability here; details in a sec)
L11: Occult Slayer 5
L12: Barbarian 1 (Whirling Frenzy variant; Feat: Mad Foam Rager)
L13: Warblade 7
L14: Warblade 8
L15: Warblade 9 (Lv15: Sigil Incisor-- a custom feat, Warblade: Combat Reflexes)
L16: Warblade 10
L17: Warblade 11
L18: Warblade 12 (L18: Robilar's Gambit, maybe?)
L19: Warblade 13 (WB 13: Blind-Fight, maybe?)
L20: Warblade 14



Skills: I got lots of Ride, Concentration, and Diplomacy. I have a good amount of crossclass Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana. That's about it.


My manuever progression:

I.Lvl   Known   Readied   Stance   Notes on Manuevers and stances known
1   3   3   1   Leading the Attack (WR), Steel Wind (IR), Moment of Perfect Mind (DM); Stance: Punishing Stance
2   4   3   1   Stone Bones (Stone Dragon)      
3   5   3   1   Rabid Wolf Strike (Tiger Claw)
4   5   4   2   (Custom Stance: Restless Hunt) (Diamond Mind)
5   6   4   2   White Raven Tactics (WR)
6   6   4   2   Stone Bones to Sudden Leap (Tiger Claw)
(Occult Slayer 5 and Barb 1= +3 boost to initiator level)
7   7   4   2   (IL 10, 5th level max) Pouncing Charge
8   7   4   2   (IL11, 6thlvl) Swap Sudden Leap to DM: Moment of Alacrity
9   8   4   2   (IL12, 6th level) Wall of Blades (Counter) (IH)
10   8   5   3   (IL13) Rabid Wolf Strike to Iron Heart Surge (IH); Tactics of the Wolf
11   9   5   3   (IL14, 7th level) Lightning Recovery (Counter) (IH)
12   9   5   3   (IL 15)turn Steel Wind to Rapid Counter (Counter) (DM)
13   10   5   3   (IL 16, 8th level) White Raven Hammer (WR)
14   10   5   3   (IL 17) replace Leading the Attack with Time Stands Still.


So what are my custom abilities?

Note the DM has already approved these.

I have a custom Diamond Mind stance, Restless Hunt. This means that no one I threaten can make a 5-ft step out of my threatened areas unless it is into another area I threaten. I got this pretty much so I don't have to use a spiked chain just to keep people from 5-ft stepping away from me.

At Occult Slayer 3 I get Witch Hunt:
The Occult Slayer's sheer hatred for all things occult gives his senses a short-lived but intense supernatural clarity. Witch-Hunt allows the Occult Slayer to cast True Seeing on himself as a supernatural ability, but as a swift action and lasting only 5 rounds + prestige class level.

Not bad, but at 4th level I get something REALLY crazy: Admonishing Stride.
The Occult Slayer's disdain and contempt for the workings of magic allow him, once per day, to move as though magic did not exist. He may use this ability as a free action on his turn, and for the entirety of his next movement he ignores the presence of anything created or called forth by magic, even creatures called by Conjuration (Calling) spells or matter created by Conjuration (Creation) spells; this effect ends immediately when his movement is halted for any reason. The movement may be of any type, such as charging or running. If he ends his movement in a space he cannot physically inhabit without the effect of Admonishing Stride, he is shunted to another location as per Dimension Door. Note this ability only applies to things called by or created by magic (summoned creatures, Web spells, Wall of Iron spells, etc), not those augmented by magic (warrior in magical full plate, enchanted sword, etc).

Obviously that is a pretty major ability. But it is still once per day.

Also note I am going to try pick up a sort of Improved Grapple (only in light armor and with no +4 bonus; just no AoOs) for my level of Barbarian instead of Fast Movement.

Finally, my custom feat at level 15:

Sigil Incisor enables the use of three "tactical" maneuvers (This is not quite a tactics feat. It just lets me do all kinds of stuff. It has semi-stiff prereqs, and again, DM has already allowed this).

Dimensional Imposition: If you use a melee touch attack to simply touch a creature with your weapon (for no damage), you can become hyper-aware of the creature's spatial positioning and hone yourself to any supernatural movement the creature might make; this awareness lasts for 1 minute, and if during it the creature attempts to use any sort of teleportation or plane-shifting ability while threatened by you, you may sense the magical energy the very moment it manifests (even as a swift or free action) and instantly slice into the magical energy generated and change the effect so that you follow the creature to wherever it goes. For example, if the creature uses Teleport, you will be brought along to its destination right with it without any action on your part; if the creature uses Ethereal Jaunt, you will also become Ethereal, etc. Returning to your original location on your own power may be problematic.

Runic Cancellation: If you drop the effect of Mage Slayer and grant foes you threaten the ability to Cast Defensively again, you may focus your attention to latent magical energies instead with a special full attack action. In the first attack in a full attack action, you may declare Runic Cancellation and make a melee attack against a creature. If you miss, you must try again with your next attack in the full attack. 

If the attack hits, rather than deal damage you cause all of the temporary magical effects beneficial (Shield of Faith, Greater Invisibility, etc) to the creature to become visible as translucent symbols hanging in the air around the creature (if an effect is both beneficial and harmful, such as Rage, it still appears). You and you alone may make Spellcraft checks to instantly identify them all, one effect at a time, with a bonus to your check equal to half your Base Attack Bonus. You may then use the rest of your full attack to attack these symbols individually (whether you recognize them or not) or your foe as you deem fit. Treat every attack against a symbol as a Dispel check against that particular effect, with a dispel check bonus equal to your attack bonus; success means the effect is dispelled as per Dispel Magic. Once your turn is completed, the symbols fade from view.
Runic Cancellation may be used three times per day.

There is a third ability, but it is not actually very beneficial. Basically if I stay in a combat stance that hinders my movement and attack rolls severely, I can counter spells that affect me as a free immediate action. 25% of the time I negate them. 50% of the time the ability does nothing. 25% of the time they have a much greater affect, basically screwing me (one result is that I am slain and teleported somewhere within 1d100 miles in a random direction). It's called Burn Card Bust; it's there because my character hates mages and loves gambling.

I have the following equipment so far:
Adamantine Spellstoring Greatsword +1
Animated Shield +1
Mithril Breastplate +1
Vestment of Resistance +1
Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2
Ring of Protection +1
Lesser Iron Ward Diamond
Least Crystal of Arrow Deflection
Lesser Acid Assault crystal
Medal of Gallantry
MW Composite Longbow (Str +2)
Heavy Warhorse
Various mundane items
3001 gold pieces


Soo yeah. I gotta run, that took longer than expected. But basically I want help choosing feats, manuevers, and items to buy. Especially items to buy. She allows Magic Item Compendium.

I'm sorry if this was too much detail. I just really want to make an effective mage slayer, who can deal with 9th level spells at least to some capacity.

[Prime32]

What about the witchborn binder (Magic of Incarnum)? Some cool stuff, and its capstone ability lets you trap mages in a coffin that hurts them if they try to cast. Oh, and according to one of the class features, THE KING GIVES YOU MONEY!

[Sinfire Titan]

What about the witchborn binder (Magic of Incarnum)? Some cool stuff, and its capstone ability lets you trap mages in a coffin that hurts them if they try to cast. Oh, and according to one of the class features, THE KING GIVES YOU MONEY!

Not worth it. The PrC is horrid.

[pfooti]

As far as maneuvers go, I'd strongly suggest the other two save maneuvers (action before thought and ... um, the fort save one). Mainly because you can get concentration really high, and it doesn't matter if you roll a 1 (and trust me, you'll roll a 1 at the worst possible time). I also think you're waiting a long time to get Iron Heart Surge. I get that White Raven Tactics is almost as good, but consider picking it up at CL 6, instead of sudden leap.

If you're looking to get all Pouncified (sudden leap is pounce-light), consider taking the Travel Devotion feat from CompChamp. 1/day activated, lasts 1 minute (10 rounds), move your move as a swift action each round. That lets you adjust a fair bit (especially with fast movement) and still get full attacks (it's even better with skirmish, of course). Also, of course, there's the barbarian-1 ACF from CompChamp which just gives you pounce straight up.

For this build, I'd also suggest looking at the Goliath for a race. No class penalties, and becoming Large when you rage is great (the other bonuses are nice too - +4 str is always good).

[SagremorTheUnruly]

Oh, one other note: My Occult Slayer class has no other real class abilities, aside from Mind over Magic 1/day (instead of the usual 2/day) and Mind Blank at the end.

I don't really have room for the other two save manuevers... Besides, my Fort and Ref are pretty decent as they are. I got Warblade and Barbarian boosting Fort, and +4 Con. My base Reflex is crap, but I have base 21 Dex and can add Int to my Ref thanks to Warblade. That's +7 right there, and I can easily increase Dex and Int later with cheap +2 enhancement items if I want. And I'm going to stop pumping Concentration after I learn Mindblank. There is some nasty Ref-based saves out there though...

About the feats. Sadly, my character has derision for the gods, and getting anything like a religious devotion feat would be wildly out of character. Besides, I already intend to be able to full attack off a charge with Pouncing Charge from the Tiger Claw discipline. And he's human and has to be for his story, and has been human for 6 levels already, so no Goliath. But my rogue/wizard buddy is always willing to cast Enlarge Person, and is even willing to pay the XP to make that permanent whenever I want. 

About Sudden Leap. Well, I got Sudden Leap there so I could get Pouncing Charge ASAP when I finally return to Warblade. But you're right, that's a long time to sit on a manuever I will not use. If I just get Pouncing Charge at 13 instead of 12, I can go those levels with Iron Heart Surge instead of Pouncing Charge. Thanks.

... and I just noticed the goodness of Raging Mongoose. Extra attacks are always good. Too bad I can't quite get it and still qualify for White Raven Hammer and Time Stands Still. I'll have to settle for Dancing Mongoose.

Here's a new manuever progression.

I.Lvl   Known   Readied   Stance    Notes on Manuevers and stances known
1     3      3      1      Leading the Attack (WR), Steel Wind (IH), Moment of Perfect Mind (DM); Stance: Punishing Stance
2     4      3      1     Stone Bones (Stone Dragon)     
3      5      3      1      Rabid Wolf Strike (Tiger Claw)
4      5      4      2      (Custom Stance: Restless Hunt) (Diamond Mind)
5      6      4      2      White Raven Tactics (WR)
6      6      4      2      Stone Bones to Iron Heart Surge (IH)
(Occult Slayer 5 and Barb 1= +3 boost to initiator level)
7      7      4      2      (IL 10, 5th level max) Sudden Leap
8      7      4      2      (IL11, 6thlvl) Swap Steel Wind to TC: Pouncing Charge
9      8      4      2      (IL12, 6th level) Moment of Alacrity (DM)
10      8      5      3      (IL13) Swap Sudden Leap to Dancing Mongoose (TC); Tactics of the Wolf
11     9      5      3      (IL14, 7th level) Rapid Counter (Counter) (DM)
12     9      5      3      (IL 15) Turn Rabid Wolf Strike to Iron Heart Focus (Counter) (IH)
13      10      5      3      (IL 16, 8th level) White Raven Hammer (WR)
14      10      5      3      (IL 17) replace Leading the Attack with Time Stands Still.


Would Iron Heart Focus be good defense against save or dies? Or should I go with the Reflex save Diamond Mind manuever, and also maybe get a Ring of Evasion...? Or would Wall of Blades still be worth consideration to block ranged touch attacks, even though I still get a free use of Spell Turning 1/day?

How about that last stance? I got it purely for White Raven Hammer and to do extreme damage with my rogue/wizard friend and the swordsage, who is going Tempest and will have a bajillion attacks per round.

Also, question... Could I delay an effect with Mad Foam Rager, then get rid of it with Iron Heart Surge (if it has a duration that is)?

And what's a good method to get an anti-magic field on myself, by the way? 

Here's the big question... What can casters still do to screw me over, and how can I fight back against that? I know there's plenty of stuff...

[Shadeseraph]

Well... I suppose you are going to get help from a caster but... A flying wizard would screw you as a "caster hunter". On the other side you shouldn't be alone hunting mages.

Also, an antimagic torch for some critical situations can be good, I think

EDIT: Annndd... be extra careful with where the caster you are following is teleporting.

DM: "the wizard starts his spell. You feel the energy coming back and forth as he is trying to teleport far away from you".
You: "I follow him! He will not evade my blade!"
DM: "As both of you get teleported, the infinite blue of the sky is the only thing you can see. A swift word is the only thing your hatred enemy need to stop the fall."
You: "Hey! What's this thing suddenly coming toward me very fast? Very, very fast. So big and flat and round, it needs a big wide-sounding name like . . . ow . . . ound . . . round . . . ground! That's it! That's a good name - ground!
I wonder if it will be friends with me?"

[SagremorTheUnruly]

Well yeah. Wings of Flying/Winged Boots backed up with a potion or two of Flying in case some smartass targeted Dispels my item has been on the "to buy" list for a while now. I know everything in the PHB and DMG pretty damn well. Actually I forgot an item.. I have a Figurine of Wondrous Power that becomes a Gyphon and an extremely high Ride; I could ride it bareback and still get it to fight with me with little problem. I know I shouldn't be alone going up against casters, and I am not, but I still want to theoretically pose a major threat even in a 1 on 1 scenario against a wizard, cleric, or druid of my level.

But an antimagic torch, you say? That's new to me. Where is that at? I don't remember something like that being in the magic item list in the DMG.

I guess I should get specific about what I've thought out so far, and where I could use some input. I was a bit reluctant to do so before because my post was already very long.

Before we get into general stuff.. We've got a Ring of Counterspells, and can easily get more. What's a good spell to put in there? Dispel Magic to protect our own buffs? Maybe in my case Ray of Enfeeblement to prevent massive amounts of Str drain?

Against most illusion/invisibility tricks I'll have my swift-action True Sight ability, as well as normal True Sight from my caster friends. Against flying I already have friends with the Fly spell and Fly potions and will eventually have Wings of Flying at least.

I know casters can buff themselves to be better than me, but I can have a targeted Dispel Magic in my spellstoring weapon, and will eventually have Sigil Incisor and a lot of attacks to cut down buffs during a full attack.

I'm fairly set for Fort saves, and decent on Reflex. I've got Moment of Perfect Mind to cover Will, and at Occult Slayer 5 will have Mind Blank to block all mind-affecting abilities. Reflex saves for huge damage or the rare debilitating effect are definitely a threat, as well as Will saves that are not mind-affecting... seriously considering getting the Reflex save Diamond Mind manuever.

Against scry and die, I know the PHB spells to protect against them, but they require a lot of effort to keep running. Eventually I'll have that non-dispellable Mind Blank 24/7 but I don't know if there's anything to be done for the rest of the party. I don't have any specific defense against casters teleporting in out of nowhere with all their friends, except that nobody in the party requires any prep time to fight at their best (we all wear light armor). I would appreciate any strategies to deal with scry and die.

Against Contingency, hopefully my ability to chase teleporters will help. I don't imagine Contingency can be so specifically worded as to let someone Dimension Door before I get a chance to touch them, unless it's something silly that should have realistically been triggered before the fight (like "if someone approaches me" or something). I don't have anything more than that against Contingency, though... Is there anything I can do, short of an anti-magic field?

There's the great fact that once I threaten someone, they can't 5-ft step and they can't Cast Defensively. They could try to move, but that's an AoO and I will have a pretty damn good Trip modifier (I could easily wield a trip weapon if I did not want to take an AoO, but AoO from a mage is usually not a big deal to someone with mostly d12 HD and Con 18+). The problem is swift action spells, there's nothing I can do to stop those... or is there?

My Init is +9, possibly +10 due to a minor ability I neglected to mention. I can win init with respectable probability. Anything that'll boost my Init even higher?

There's the problem that much of my uberness depends on being at close-range. I have Ride and access to mounts with very decent movement speeds, but ideally I should start combat within 100 feet of my enemy. Is there anything I could do to boost my stealth capacities? I have good Dex and no armor check penalty. Is there a better deal than paying lots of GP to give my armor bonuses to Hide and Move Silently? And for that matter, is there anything better for boosting my own speed than Haste? Would a Helmet of Teleportation work here, to get me (and even my mount) in close instantly from even over a vast distance?

Ability damage and negative energy are a problem. I've got no specific defenses against those, and don't really know of any cost efficient protections. I can just get the cleric to Death Ward me, or pay out the ass for that armor from Book of Exalted Deeds that protects me from negative energy. Don't really know what to do about ability damage besides kill them before they afflict me with too much of it, or Iron Heart Surge it if it has a duration. Any thoughts?

Now, I've got my Admonishing Stride if I get Forcecage'd. I also know of the Anklets of Teleportation from the Magic Item Compendium, I plan on getting those too. So I actually think I'm fairly safe against damn old Forcecage. But there are other barriers that could be problematic, like people just moving into walls while incorporeal...

What are some good ways to turn ethereal or incorporeal? If I'm ethereal or incorporeal, and am within charge distance, I think I can chase a mage into damn near anything with Admonishing Stride. I know about the Etherealness armor special ability; is there anything else?

A final question for now... Gate. What the hell? I don't think I can even dispel anything that comes out of Gate. What can I do to keep those damn great gold wyrms away?

This topic's even more sprawling now. I almost posted it about two months ago then rethought it. It's a tough deal trying to make up for such a colossal imbalance.  Probably way too many questions all at once; sorry about that.

[DetectiveJabsco]

What about Witch Slayer from the Tome of Magic pg. 67

[SagremorTheUnruly]

Hey, not bad. That final ability is pretty nice! Sadly, my DM only allows a single prestige class, and I think I'll take my custom Occult Slayer. Thanks for pointing that out though, I could see myself using that later if I make a high Cha character.