Author Topic: 3.5e Rules Variant: Condensed Skills List  (Read 4557 times)

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Fox Lee

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3.5e Rules Variant: Condensed Skills List
« on: May 19, 2008, 06:14:28 AM »
I realised I had some actual mechanical stuff I had meant to post on the D&D forums, but never did. And now it's been Gleemaxed, don't care to. So...

Reposted from my gaming group's wiki (because it's private), this is a skill system variant I made when I heard that 4e was going to have fewer skills. I liked this idea; it might also be argued that there are too few skills in D&D, but I felt it would be much harder to make a more detailed skill list than to simplify the one there is - and either of those was better than the current level, I felt.

I also folded in some d20 Modern skills as appropriate - engineerng is still engineering regardless of when it took place - so in a way this is also a more modern skills list (our setting is a little bit magepunk, so it's nice for science to have a bit more of a look-in anyway).

Disclamer 1: I am not aiming for realism. I am aiming for elegance, simplicity and playability. I know that playing the guitar doesn't mean you can play the bassoon worth a damn, but I don't care, because spending skill points on Perform (bassoon) is about as lame as it gets IMO.
Disclamer 2: This was designed for mine (or possibly Talen's) game setting, and thus assumes certain changes from the core (the inclusion of psionics, for example, and the rebalancing of diplomacy). If it needs to be altered in order to fit into your setting/house rules, then alter it.

This is all OGL. If you like it, steal it!

Quote from: GameBriefCase wiki
Variant: Condensed Skills
[spoiler]
This is a revised list of skills for use with Dungeons & Dragons 3.5E, based on one of the philosophies said to be behind the new 4th Edition design; a simpler, more abstracted skill list. This particular revision was made by Fox, and also folds some relevant skills from d20Modern into the list.

The D&D core rules include 49 skills, not counting variants of Profession and Perform; this system condenses those, as well as five skills from other sourcebooks and 27 of 31 d20Modern skills, into a final list of 22. Some players may find these changes displeasing; the intent here is not to create a greater sense of realism, as many players desire from the skills system, but rather to increase the cinematic feel and "heriosm" of the game by making skills broader and more abstract. It also hopes to permit for stronger investments in more "flavoursome" skills, such as craft and profession, which are broadly considered "weak" by comparison to other skills.


New Skill List:
SkillSupercedes
Acrobatics (dex)Balance
Escape Artist
Tumble
Ride(1)
Arcane Lore (int)Knowledge (Arcana)
Knowledge (Arcane Lore)
Knowledge (Psionics)
Psicraft
Spellcraft
Use Magic Device
Use Psionic Device
Artistry (int)Craft (Visual Arts)
Craft (Writing)
Knowledge (Art)
Forgery
Athletics (str)Climb
Jump
Swim
Business (wis)Appraise
Knowledge (Business)
Profession (any)
Chemistry (int)Craft (Alchemy
Craft (Chemical)
Craft (Trapmaking)(2)
Craft (int)Craft (Armorsmithing)
Craft (Bowmaking)
Craft (Weaponsmithing)
Repair(3)
Culture (int)Knowledge (Civics)
Knowledge (History)
Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty)
Knowledge (Religion)
Knowledge (Theology and Philosophy)
Discipline (con)Autohypnosis
Concentration
Engineering (int)Craft (Mechanical)
Craft (Structural)
Craft (Trapmaking)(4)
Demolitions
Disable Device
Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering)
Knowledge (Physical Sciences)
Repair(3)
Folklore (wis)Knowledge (Current Events)
Knowledge (Local)
Knowledge (Popular Culture)
Knowledge (Streetwise)
Navigate(5)
Investigation (int)Gather Information
Investigate
Research
Search
Legerdemain (dex)Open Lock
Sleight Of Hand
Use Rope
Linguistics (int)Decipher Script
Read/Write Language
Speak Language
Medicine (int)Heal
Knowledge (Earth and Life Sciences)(6)
Treat Injury
Negotiation (cha)Diplomacy
Intimidate
Handle Animal
Perception (wis)Knowledge (Behavioural Sciences)
Listen
Sense Motive
Spot
Perform (cha)Perform (all)
Stealth (dex)Hide
Move Silently
Subterfuge (cha)Bluff
Disguise
Gamble
Tactics (int)Knowledge (Tactics)
Martial Lore (Bo9S)
Wild Lore (int)Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Knowledge (Earth and Life Sciences)(7)
Knowledge (Geography)
Knowledge (Nature)
Navigate(8)
Ride(9)
Survival

(1)To stand or balance on a mount.
(2)For traps which relate to chemical interaction.
(3)Where the damaged item is an item normally made with this skill.
(4)For mechanical traps.
(5)In an urban environment.
(6)For life sciences – biology etc.
(7)For earth sciences – geology etc.
(8)In a natural environment.
(9)To control or guide a mount.


Changing Class Skills
Broadly, the intent here is that a condensed skill will be a class skill for a class if any of the old skills which it "absorbs" were on that class's class skill list. For example, a wizard (who normally has the Spellcraft skill but not the Psicraft skill) would get the Arcane Lore skill.

It's suggested that this should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, however. For example, it might not be appropriate for a barbarian, who would normally have the Initimidate skill on her class list, to have the Negotiate skill under the new system. In this case, it's suggested to give such classes a class ability which gives a bonus to skill check, but only under the appropriate circumstances (e.g., the Barbarian gets a +4 to Negotiate checks made to intimidate the subject). If a feat or prestige class requires a certain number of ranks in that skill, allow this class ability to substitute for half of those ranks - a requirement of eight ranks could instead be four ranks plus the class ability.

This system doesn't require that the number of skills points given to any class be increased or decreased, though GMs who feel the need to restrict skill use may want to lower the skill point baselines, since there are fewer skills under this system.



Reference for Existing Skills
[spoiler]

D&D CORE
SkillFolded Into
AppraiseBusiness
BalanceAcrobatics
BluffSubterfuge
ClimbAthletics
ConcentrationDiscipline
Craft
- AlchemyChemistry
- ArmorsmithingCraft
- BowmakingCraft
- WeaponsmithingCraft
- TrapmakingChemistry or Engineering
Decipher ScriptLinguistics
DiplomacyNegotiation
Disable DeviceEngineering
DisguiseSubterfuge
Escape ArtistAcrobatics
ForgeryArtistry
Gather InformationInvestigate
Handle AnimalNegotiate
HealMedicine
HideStealth
IntimidateNegotiation
JumpAthletics
Knowledge
- ArcanaArcane Lore
- Architecture and engineeringEngineering
- DungeoneeringWild Lore
- GeographyWild Lore
- HistoryCulture
- LocalSocial Lore
- NatureWild Lore
- Nobility and RoyaltyCulture
- ReligionCulture
- The PlanesArcane Lore
ListenPerception
Move SilentlyStealth
Open LockLegerdemain
Perform (any)Perform
ProfessionBusiness
RideWild Lore or Acrobatics
SearchInvestigate
Sense MotivePerception
Sleight Of HandLegerdemain
Speak LanguageLinguistics
SpellcraftArcane Lore
SpotPerception
SurvivalWild Lore
SwimAthletics
TumbleAcrobatics
Use Magic DeviceArcane Lore
Use RopeLegerdemain


D&D OTHER
SkillFolded Into
AutohypnosisDiscipline
Knowledge (Psionics)Arcane Lore
Martial LoreTactics
PsicraftArcane Lore
Use Psionic DeviceArcane Lore


d20MODERN
SkillFolded Into
Computer Use[not included]
Craft
- ChemicalChemistry
- Electronic[not included]
- MechanicalEngineering
- PharmaceuticalMedicine
- StructuralEngineering
- Visual artsArtistry
- WritingArtistry
DemolitionsEngineering
Drive[not included]
GambleSubterfuge
InvestigateInvestigation
Knowledge
- Arcane LoreArcane Lore
- ArtArtistry
- Behavioral SciencesPerception
- BusinessBusiness
- CivicsCulture
- Current EventsSocial Lore
- Earth and Life SciencesWild Lore
- Physical SciencesEngineering
- Popular CultureSocial Lore
- StreetwiseSocial Lore
- TacticsTactics
- Technology[not included]
- Theology and PhilosophyCulture
NavigateWild Lore or Social Lore
Pilot[not included]
Read/Write LanguageLinguistics
RepairEngineering or Craft
ResearchInvestigate
Treat InjuryMedicine
[/spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Orion

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Re: 3.5e Rules Variant: Condensed Skills List
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2008, 02:28:45 PM »
As you say, this does dramatically increase the number of skills that any given PC has access to, so unless a GM would be willing to give all the players about four times as many skill points, then they should seriously decrease the number of points they give out under this consolidated list.

It seems to me that a lot of those combinations lump disparate things together, things that have enough in-game utility that they should remain separate (i.e., players should have to pay for them separately). For example, "Athletics" combines three different forms of movement: Swim, Jump, and Climb. Those are all potentially life-saving and/or game-winning skills, depending on the circumstances. I think PCs should have to pay for all those things individually, because of their inherent utility. Simple as that.

A group that's really interested in consolidation should just default to ability checks and give out a bonus by level and/or class, and just skip the whole "skill" thing entirely. I don't see a logical or empirical reason why someone who's good at Climbing would also automatically be good at Swimming and Jumping (for example), so if it's an abstraction for the purposes of a game, then just abstract it all the way and be done with it.

All that being said, I understand that a lot of people are big fans of consolidated skill lists and if that makes your gaming experience more fun, then by all means! Enjoy. Don't let me stop you. Customise to your heart's content. As long as your group is having fun, you're doing it right.

RobbyPants

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Re: 3.5e Rules Variant: Condensed Skills List
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2008, 03:10:54 PM »
Personally, it's not my cup of tea, but I think it could work.  The current system is an abstraction as it is, so as long as your group's cool with it, go ahead.

I do agree that it seems wierd giving a barbarian Negotiate.  :wink
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pfooti

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Re: 3.5e Rules Variant: Condensed Skills List
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2008, 03:15:49 PM »
One big Red Flag for me is the inclusion of UMD/UPD in Arcane Lore. Most Arcane Casters don't get that on their class skill list, for a reason, I think. Being able to use wands/staves/scrolls from other caster lists, divine, arcane, prohibited schools, is pretty awesome, and casters should pay for that.

Other than that, it's a reasonable idea, although I'm not sold on the reason why you'd want to do that over the current system.

Fox Lee

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Re: 3.5e Rules Variant: Condensed Skills List
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2008, 07:18:44 PM »
Well, it comes down to being designed for those who are unhappy with the current system. After all, those who are happy with the current system probably don't want a variant :p

As for fewer skill points, that's up to the GM. I don't feel the need to, because I always felt like 2/level was horrible anyway, and I'm happy to let those two be more useful. IIRC, this system gives the fighter two class skills, and having two skill points to go with them pleases me. YGMV!

I am slightly unsure about UMD/UPD. I did kind of like them being based on Cha, broken though they werer on frequent occasions. I'm not quite sure what else to do with them.

Mohji

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Re: 3.5e Rules Variant: Condensed Skills List
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2008, 07:27:52 PM »
I personaly don't think that any of the knowledges should be coupled with other skills, if you look at what 4e info has given us knowledge skills do not make up any of the combination skills
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Fox Lee

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Re: 3.5e Rules Variant: Condensed Skills List
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2008, 07:29:57 PM »
I should have mentioned: this was inspired by rumours about 4e, but it was not supposed to duplicate 4e changes. I absolutely don't care how Wizards do it.

In any case, in our games the knowledge skills are handy tools for furthering the plot, but are hardly relevant in terms of mechanical powers. I think they go well in lumps.